Norfolk Status: Going Home Time Frame

[kalos72]

Hey guys...

One thing I wanted to ask was, who was actually stationed in Norfolk before Going Home?

I mean its supposed to be an HQ but had no stationed units? Anyone think that through or do a write up there?

Seems more Civgov units were in the area then anything Milgov no?

Just a random thought...

[Adm.Lee]

Dunno about the US Army, but the Navy has a lot of ships there, and I think Atlantic Fleet's HQ. Lots of Marine & Navy installations around, such as the amphibious force's bases (includes Special Warfare).

Wikipedia says that nearby Fort Monroe is the HQ for the Army's Training & Doctrine Command. The fort closed in 2005.

That's all I have, someone who's been there may have more for you.

[Legbreaker]

By 2000, and after several years of warfare, nukes and civil disorder, who knows who's there? It's possible the entire area was abandoned and then reoccupied by an advance force a short time before TF34 arrived.
Anyone who had occupied the area without the military's authorisation would surely have fled the moment the fleet appeared on the horizon and started landing troops. 50,000 soldiers make a persuasive argument!

[pmulcahy11b]

Langley AFB isn't far from Norfolk, just to throw a little spin into it. Home of squadrons of F-15A/Bs, C/Ds, and Es, and the personnel and equipment needed to support them.

[Legbreaker]

Those F-15's aren't like to remain there after so many years of warfare though are they? Anything that can fly and be fitted with a weapon would be pushed to one of the many combat theatres, at least until the fuel ran out.
Supporting units/troops would also be moved to where they can be more useful.

[kalos72]

Well, I understand whats near it now. But per canon, who was there to run the joint?

It was still the Navy HQ to the best of my knowledge, some units had to be there to secure the ships right?

What ships were there, nothing canon that I am aware of.

One of the things that always annoyed me was the lack of ANY information about other units. Nothing about Engineer battalions or AAB's or MI units. I guess the sheer volume there could have caused alot of issues for the writers but still...I wish.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

But per canon, who was there to run the joint?

Absolutely nothing and nobody. It's up to the individual GM to populate the area if they so wish. Personally I can't see much point as PCs aren't likely to be involved even in the small scale decisions and certainly not in the preparatory phases of the operation.

It might be interesting for a PC group to be sent ahead as a part of a scouting mission, but given that the game concepts have the PCs in eastern or central Europe when the mission is being organised....

Whatever units were their prior to the evacuation would have undoubtedly been absorbed, reorganised, or even disbanded by the time PCs arrive (unless they're sent ahead).

[Slappy]

Only as a civilian, but I've spent a fair amount of time in the Norfolk / Hampton / VA Beach area. The place is littered with bases. Shipyards, naval aviation, training, weapons development and testing, logistics, you name it. It's pretty scattered and maybe not the most combat ready, but even without an infantry formation per se, it adds up to thousands of personnel, even before you count civilians. It's also home to thousands more ex service members who could probably be mobilized in a pinch.

I think they'd have to reorganize, rationalize the footprint, find a way to get extra equipment, etc. But I have no trouble believing that the personnel on hand could hold and maintain that area if they were loyal and had food. If you further assume that even a couple smaller units stayed there for added security rather than being deployed to Europe, you have a good base for the TF to return to without needing big named units in place there.

[WallShadow]

IIRC there was an enclave at Norfolk performing salvage and support following the nukes dropped on the base/area.

[Legbreaker]

I've now searched through all the books and Challenge articles and came up with this.

Howling Wilderness

Norfolk/Portsmouth, VA: Atlantic Command Headquarters, port and facilities (1 Mt).

Note this strike occured in 1997.

Challenge #30

U.S. Military Government's enclave at Norfolk, Virginia

This is a snip from the 17th of June 1999 when the Eastern Military Government of Canada reached out to both Milgov and Civgov simultaneously. Note however this is an article on Canada written by Legion G. McRae (who was a prolific contributor to the magazine, and also wrote part of Twilight Nightmares). Not technically canon, but about as close as you're likely to get.

The article "A Rock in Troubled Waters" in Challenge #42 also has a few references to Norfolk, but not much beyond a few vessels in the area.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

I would imagine the nuke footprint on that entire region would be so big that the personnel in charge of Norfolk would be rats and cockroaches; however, they might at least truck in a few hundred people to help the soon-to-be-discharged 50000+ military (seriously, five divisions worth of troops and MilGov - who is just barely holding on to the oil fields in Oklahoma - is going to just let the lot of them wander off into Mad Max land?!) get squared away and disbursed.

If the USSR didn't flatten Norfolk and surrounding environs then you might as well say Elves with +2 broadswords run it because that's the level of fantasy we'd be talking about.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Those F-15's aren't like to remain there after so many years of warfare though are they? Anything that can fly and be fitted with a weapon would be pushed to one of the many combat theatres, at least until the fuel ran out.
Supporting units/troops would also be moved to where they can be more useful.

My point here is, what did they leave behind? A computer with personal records and protected by a Faraday cage? A vault with who-knows-what inside? ETC...

[Legbreaker]

1 MT is going to do some serious damage. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?&..._1=365060&zm=9
The prevailing winds at that time of year are also going to drive the fallout south along the coast. https://www.windfinder.com/windstati..._naval_station
Fortunately the area was only hit with one large strike, http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=851, however the published lists only include warheads of 0.5 megaton or more. It's quite possible, even probable, smaller warheads struck nearby. One of those were probably targeted at Langley AFB. http://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/?t...aa809c250eb874

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

One of those were probably targeted at Langley AFB.

but that not canon ethier

[Targan]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

but that not canon ethier

Unless there is a mention in a canon source of Langley having been spared, it's entirely possible. One or more sub-0.5mt strikes on Langley wouldn't contradict canon unless a canon source specifically says Langley is intact.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

but that not canon ethier

Originally Posted by Targan

Unless there is a mention in a canon source of Langley having been spared, it's entirely possible. One or more sub-0.5mt strikes on Langley wouldn't contradict canon unless a canon source specifically says Langley is intact.

Correct on both counts.
Put yourself in the Soviet commanders seat for a moment. Would YOU spare Langley?

[RN7]

From Wikipedia:

Naval Station Norfolk is a United States Navy base in Norfolk, Virginia. It supports naval forces in the United States Fleet Forces Command, those operating in the Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, and Indian Ocean. NS Norfolk, also known as the Norfolk Naval Base, occupies about four miles (6 km) of waterfront space and seven miles (11 km) of pier and wharf space of the Hampton Roads peninsula known as Sewell's Point. It is the world's largest naval station, supporting 75 ships and 134 aircraft alongside 14 piers and 11 aircraft hangars, and houses the largest concentration of U.S. Navy forces. Port Services control more than 3,100 ship movements annually.


So Norfolk is America's primary East Coast naval base and in fact its largest. In 2016 U.S. Navy ships based at Norfolk include warships attached to Carrier Strike Group Two, Eight, Ten and Twelve, Destroyer Squadron 2, 14, 22, 26 and 28, Amphibious Squadron 4, 6, 8 and Submarine Squadron 6.

Military facilities near Naval Station Norfolk include Camp Allen also in Norfolk, Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Dam Neck in Virginia Beach, St. Julien's Creek Annex in Chesapeake, Fort Eustis in Newport News, Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, U.S. Navy and Coast Guard facilities in Portsmouth and Yorktown, and the CIA training facility known as the "The Farm' at Camp Peary in York County. The Norfolk Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth is also the U.S. Navy's largest industrial facility. Also there is Fort Monroe in Hampton which is a very large and now decommissioned US Army coastal artillery fort and a national monument.

Four naval carrier air wings are attached to Naval Air Station Oceana which has four runways. U.S. Navy Naval Special Warfare Group Two and Four are based at Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek along with a number of naval construction and specialised units. U.S. Navy Weapon Station Yorktown is a 20.7 square mile (54 square kilometre) complex that stretches across York County, James City County, Newport News and Hampton Roads which provides extensive storage and loading facilities for U.S. Navy weapons and ammunition. Langley Air Force Base hosts the USAF 1st Fighter Wing and the Virginia Air Guard 192nd Fighter Wing. Two US Marine Corps fleet anti-terrorist security team's are based at Camp Allen, and a number of U.S. Army logistics and aviation support units are based at Fort Eustis.

Non-military run facilities in the area include Huntington-Ingalls Industries Newport News Shipbuilding who design, build and refuel U.S. Navy nuclear powered aircraft carriers, the Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility in Newport News, Norfolk International Airport and Newport News/Williamsburg International Airport. There are also numerous commercial docks and ship handling facilities and a huge amount of transport infrastructure such as railway hubs, road and rail tunnels and large bridges in the area. There are two nuclear power plants in Virginia within 30 miles of Norfolk and another one in Maryland on the western shore of Chesapeake Bay.

If this is not a priority nuclear target for the Soviet Union then I don't know what is.

However despite lobbing a 1mt warhead at Norfolk the sheer size of the facilities in the area means a lot must have survived even if the Soviets got a direct hit and I doubt they did with Norfolk and the other bases lying so close to the sea. As Task Force 34 is referred to as sailing for Norfolk then we must assume that the Norfolk area is relatively intact and under MilGov control.

[Legbreaker]

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? I'd think that would be a more efficient way of taking out a set of facilities such as this.
It's also possible 2 or three times that payload was launched, but the additional warheads failed to arrive due to interception or launch vehicle failure. I think I read somewhere that only 85% was expected to arrive on target in a best case (for the attacker) scenario.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? .

Well considering the Soviet MIRV payloads are larger than 1MT that probleley what happened, I check the rule book target list version 2.2 and AFB Langley not on the list, so it's not hit.

why you might ask yourself why it was not hit? Take your pick, it was not targeted, the weapon system targeting it was destroyed prior to intented launch, the weapons malfunctioned after take off, near or total miss, or it was a dud.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

...I check the rule book target list version 2.2 and AFB Langley not on the list, so it's not hit.

No, all that's saying is it wasn't hit with 0.5 MT or greater. It's quite possible it was hit with something smaller - that's up to the individual GM to decide.

The severity of the attack on each target point is represented by the megaton (Mt) rating of the weapons exploded there (not necessarily as a single weapon).

So that confirms Norfolk could have received (and in my opinion did) multiple warheads. Langley is only about 10 miles from the Naval base so it's conceivable the writers didn't bother to split it into two separate listings. For example we all know Warsaw received 3 warheads to the city yet it's only listed once.

With certain exceptions, only places that received .5 megaton or more are covered here

Remember the lists ONLY show the larger strikes with a few exceptions on targets which are detailed in the modules. One of those exceptions is the Presidential shelter at the White House (.25 Mt, ground burst).
We also know nuclear craters are a possible result on the random encounter tables, so it's absolutely certain nowhere near all nuclear strikes have been listed in the books.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that several sites might not have been hit due to defective warheads not going off, missiles going off course due to multiple reasons, and also missile defenses taking out the incoming warheads

As for not every target being listed in the game you have to keep in mind that there were a lot of targets that have been confirmed by various sources that were not hit - for example the only places hit in PA are the ones listed in Howling Wilderness - Allegheny Uprising confirmed that they were the only places hit by nukes - which means the Soviets completely ignored the Mack Truck assembly plant in Allentown, Three Mile Island, Harrisburg, the Naval Weapons Center, the BAE plant at York (which was making Bradley's, M109's, Bufords, M88A2s and would be a prime military target), Carlisle, Fort Indiantown Gap, and three US Army Depots - all of them untouched by nukes of any sort

Thus there is every chance that places not listed in the various guides as being hit were never hit by nukes of any kind - which by the way still leaves open them being hit by a conventional attack of some kind. So its not as easy as saying that places not listed in HW under the major nukes had to have been hit by smaller ones.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

What if that 1 MT worth of nuke wasn't just one warhead, but the total of several warheads lobbed at the area? I'd think that would be a more efficient way of taking out a set of facilities such as this.
It's also possible 2 or three times that payload was launched, but the additional warheads failed to arrive due to interception or launch vehicle failure. I think I read somewhere that only 85% was expected to arrive on target in a best case (for the attacker) scenario.

Howling Wilderness states that the Soviet's launched a 1 Mt nuclear warhead against Norfolk/Portsmouth.

If this is the case then it must have been a single warhead as the Soviet Union only ever developed one type of 1.0 Mt nuclear warhead.

They were deployed on the SS-N-6 SLBM's (Mod 1 & 2) that were carried on Yankee 1 and Yankee II submarines. The SS-N-6 was developed in the 1960's and early 1970's with a range of between 2,400 and 3,200 km and a CEP of 1.9 km (Mod 1) and 1.3 to 1.8 (Mod 2). So due to their relatively limited range in comparison to Soviet ICBM's and newer and more capable Soviet SLBM's the Yankee submarines could not launch their SS-N-6 missiles in the relative safety of Arctic waters.

So they would have to penetrate NATO anti-submarine defences along the GIUK Gap in the North Atlantic to get within launching range of the US Eastern Seaboard, and then launch their older and less accurate SLBM's while being stalked by powerful fleets of US and British nuclear powered hunter killer submarines. Also due to the age and relative accuracy of the SS-N-6 missile and the fact that their intended target of Norfolk and Portsmouth with other bases in the area are located on or near the shoreline of Chesapeake Bay, there is a high (50%) probability that the SS-N-6 missile will land offshore in Chesapeake Bay, or could in fact land on the sparsely inhabited Delmarva Peninsula or even further out in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely correct.
Some places not listed may have been hit, some not hit, some hit with either conventional weapons, sabotage, or both.
At the end of the day it's all down to the GM to decide just how screwed a place is. The books provide us with a framework to build on and as long as we're faithful to that framework and the intentions of the writers, the rest can be whatever the GM wants.

As for Langley, I don't know if it would warrant a nuke, I don't know enough about it and what's to be found there. However, it'd certainly be considered as a target by the Soviets for attack at some point. Perhaps it was a secondary or tertiary target only to be targeted in a full scale nuclear war, perhaps it was simply missed in the initial exchange. Perhaps it's already flattened. It really doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme, only if a GM decides there's enough there to warrant the PCs checking it out for some reason.

We also don't know for sure that TF-34 docked at the Naval base itself, only that Norfolk attracted nukes totalling around 1MT, and 50,000 American troops evacuated from Europe with the Norfolk region as their main destination. Some ships may not have reached Norfolk, or been diverted to other Milgov enclaves along the coast. This seems likely given the logistical nightmare feeding so many people would entail.

Norfolk appears to have received an airburst(s) as ground bursts appear to be specifically noted in the target lists. Therefore radiation levels may be almost tolerable (look at Warsaw for example) and physical damage to infrastructure out of the immediate blast area is potentially repairable given time and resources. The warheads may have drifted off target by a mile or so as well, which would help to spare some of the necessary facilities to receive TF-34.

There also appears to be other dock facilities in the area besides the naval base which may have been pressed into use.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

Howling Wilderness states that the Soviet's launched a 1 Mt nuclear warhead against Norfolk/Portsmouth.

If this is the case then it must have been a single warhead as the Soviet Union only ever developed one type of 1.0 Mt nuclear warhead.

Not at all. There's a number of Soviet warheads of lesser yields, and there's nothing to say the total delivered was exactly 1.0MT - could have been slightly more, or slightly less.

It's even possible the area was nuked on more than one occasion, perhaps several different warheads over a period of several days as damage assessments became available.

Exact details though don't matter as previously mentioned.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not at all. There's a number of Soviet warheads of lesser yields, and there's nothing to say the total delivered was exactly 1.0MT - could have been slightly more, or slightly less.

It's even possible the area was nuked on more than one occasion, perhaps several different warheads over a period of several days as damage assessments became available.

Exact details though don't matter as previously mentioned.

I think I'll follow canon as you initially did. What other targets in the world were nuked on more than one occasion? Exact details do matter to many of us.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Absolutely correct.
Some places not listed may have been hit, some not hit, some hit with either conventional weapons, sabotage, or both.

I think the only way the Soviet Union is going to attack the continental United States with conventional weapons is if they replace nuclear warhead on ICBM's with conventional warheads. No Soviet bomber is going to get anywhere near the US-Canadian border in 1997, in fact I would be surprised if any Soviet bomber made it as far as 60th Parallel in Northern Canada, unless the Soviet occupied Iceland. As regards sabotage, maybe some limited incidents, but no group of armed Spetsnaz is going to do much damage or last long in America. The locals will probably be better armed. Also watch invasion USA. Chuck Norris put the invading Cuban, Nicaraguan and Soviet terrorists in their place.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by RN7

I think I'll follow canon as you initially did. What other targets in the world were nuked on more than one occasion? Exact details do matter to many of us.

And I still am. There is NOTHING to say there is only one warhead and it dropped on any particular day. It specifically states "not necessarily as a single weapon".

What I am saying is in this case it's an open playing field. The details are impossible to pin down. It's up to the individual GM to say what did, or did not happen within the few guidelines we have on this particular issue.

Was it one warhead? Maybe. But it's also just as possible there were multiple warheads. We just don't know for sure.

Most of the likely Soviet missiles carried multiple warheads, and the distance between targets of each warhead is limited to a few hundred kilometres. There are only a handful of other targets within that possible area (all 0.5MT), so where did the other warheads go? Are Soviet missiles equipped with warheads of varying yields all within the same bus, or is it more likely that two 0.5MT warheads hit the Norfolk area? My money is on the latter, but that's just my opinion and I freely admit that may not be the case - we'll never know.

As for conventional weapons attacks, do the Soviets not possess sub, ship or aircraft launched cruise missiles just like many other nations? Conventional weapons are possible. They're just not as effective as a nuke, but may be exactly what's required at certain points through the war.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by RN7

Military facilities near Naval Station Norfolk include Camp Allen also in Norfolk, Naval Air Station Oceana in Virginia Beach, Naval Amphibious Base Little Creek, Dam Neck in Virginia Beach, St. Julien's Creek Annex in Chesapeake, Fort Eustis in Newport News, Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, U.S. Navy and Coast Guard facilities in Portsmouth and Yorktown, and the CIA training facility known as the "The Farm' at Camp Peary in York County.

In my last campaign one of the PCs (not under Major Po's command, it was a parallel game involving a MilGov/DIA mission to track Major Po's movements after he returned to CONUS) attempted to reconnoitre The Farm but never reached any of the main facilities as he detected manned listening posts on the outskirts and decided not to push his luck. By that stage Major Po's group had also had their own skirmishes with CIA assets operating in the Norfolk AO.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

And I still am. There is NOTHING to say there is only one warhead and it dropped on any particular day. It specifically states "not necessarily as a single weapon".

It clearly states a 1 Mt warhead was used on Norfolk/Portsmouth.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Was it one warhead? Maybe. But it's also just as possible there were multiple warheads. We just don't know for sure.

Most of the likely Soviet missiles carried multiple warheads, and the distance between targets of each warhead is limited to a few hundred kilometres. There are only a handful of other targets within that possible area (all 0.5MT), so where did the other warheads go? Are Soviet missiles equipped with warheads of varying yields all within the same bus, or is it more likely that two 0.5MT warheads hit the Norfolk area? My money is on the latter, but that's just my opinion and I freely admit that may not be the case - we'll never know.

The individual yield of Soviet nuclear warheads deployed on their missiles during the Cold War is even today a matter of contention. Many Soviet missiles were MIRV capable, but I only know of one missile which specifically carried a 1.0 Mt warhead, and that was the SS-N-6 with a single warhead. The American's, Chinese, British and French did not mix and match the yields of the warheads on their missiles, and I have yet see evidence that the Soviets did either. If you know of a source that shows they did I will gladly stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As for conventional weapons attacks, do the Soviets not possess sub, ship or aircraft launched cruise missiles just like many other nations? Conventional weapons are possible. They're just not as effective as a nuke, but may be exactly what's required at certain points through the war.

They do but submarines, ships and aircraft also have to get in range of their target to launch a cruise missile. How hostile do you think the North Atlantic would be for the Soviet Air Force and Navy in 1997?. No Soviet ship is going to be able to penetrate the GIUK Gap to break out into the Atlantic and approach the US Eastern Seaboard, in fact its unlikely that any Soviet submarine would be able to do it either given the level of anti-submarine forces that the US and NATO have in Northern waters. And then they have to breach the heavy defended naval and anti-submarine cordon around America's largest naval base stretching hundreds of miles out into the Atlantic.

As for an air attack, do the Soviets posses stealth bombers? Because there is no way that any Soviet bomber would get any way near the continental US in wartime.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Targan

In my last campaign one of the PCs (not under Major Po's command, it was a parallel game involving a MilGov/DIA mission to track Major Po's movements after he returned to CONUS) attempted to reconnoitre The Farm but never reached any of the main facilities as he detected manned listening posts on the outskirts and decided not to push his luck. By that stage Major Po's group had also had their own skirmishes with CIA assets operating in the Norfolk AO.

The CIA Farm would likely be the DIA Farm in 2000!