Does the Frozen Watch make sense?

[cosmicfish]

There have been a number of threads touching on the FW, and the more I look at it the more I think it is a problem area.

First, the FW as described lacks the basic equipment needed to survive in case of an emergency or even do their jobs. If something breaches their bolthole, they're screwed. If they are needed to replace individuals, they better hope those individuals left gear behind or that the Team they are joining has found a supply depot, because otherwise they have... coveralls?

Second, this is exacerbated by the fact that they are intended to be used in case of Project losses. Meaning, the more dire the need for their activation, the less likely that other Teams will be available to transport and equip them. Replacing a Team member doesn't just mean dealing with the fact that they might not have the most useful equipment, it means dealing with the fact that they don't have ANY equipment.

Finally, and what really brought about this thread, is one other big problem: How are they supposed to be used, even when things are going relatively "well"? Let's go into more detail.

FW "Teams" are composed of individuals in a variety of specialties, are intended to be used to fill individual vacancies. They are not a functional Team themselves. Their bolthole is... a bolthole. A facility that survives in large part due to the fact that it is concealed, and is designed to be abandoned.

So what happens when Team ABC-123 needs a new MARS member and finds the nearest FW bolthole? They open it up, activate the guy they need, equip him from their copious stores, and then... what? The rest of those poor so-and-so's are now in an exposed position. Are they ALSO woken up and brought along as unnecessary personnel overburdening the Team's resources? Are they left as is, in the hopes that no one (in a likely hazardous region) will find and exploit the exposed bolthole? Or is the Team expected to spend a week or more carefully restoring the landscape and hoping that no one witnessed the revelation of the buried treasure?

I guess my point is this: Perhaps the best place for the Frozen Watch is right where the rest of the backups are stored: Supply bases like Starnaman. Such facilities are already protected, already expected to operate as fixed locations after activation, and already have the weapons and vehicles and other supplies that a newly-woken FW teamer would need to be able to go out and do their job. It seems to solve a lot of problems at once.

And if they are to be out on their own, why not just make them a functioning Team, with equipment and vehicles? The Project never assumed a "lone Team" scenario outside of emergencies, even during the Recon stage, Teams should expect to have other Teams on their perimeter that can render aid. Teams can trade personnel or equipment as needed, why not replace the FW with a Combined Teams? A Combined Team is just a FW "team" with vehicles, weapons, and some team training time. If Team ABC-123 takes losses, the powers that be could certainly pull a member or two from other Teams that could handle the loss, or disperse the remaining ABC-123 personnel to supplement other Teams.

Any thoughts?

[dragoon500ly]

You hit the fundamental problem with the cannon Frozen Watch right on the mark!

In my own little world, the FW is associated with a fixed installation, a manned commo base, a regional command base, or a group command team, didn't consider a supply base and so I will cheerful pirate that idea!

I also agree with the gear problem, at the very least each member of FW has a basic issue to include weapons/ammo. Depending on circuit.stance I have even issued a vehicle such as a HMMWV or truck.

[RandyT0001]

I typically give FW personal the basic personal load (4th) / standard issue, including a winter coat (3rd) kit. Weapon loads are confined to these that have the M16, the M4 (or Stoner variants), the Uzi, the Rem. 870 (4th)/ High Standard M10A (3rd) shotgun, the Doctor/Medic and Assistant Medic kits. No LMGs, GLs, portable missile / rocket launchers, flame weapons nor laser kits are provide to FW. FW bolt holes will have from six to eight occupants. PB can send a signal(s) to revive just individuals or the whole group within the bolt hole. If the whole group is revived at the same time (by PB) or if a combined group leader revives more than half of the occupants at the same time the occupants are allowed access to a Commando Ranger vehicle with a mounted M60 LMG. (Regional commanders, their XOs or a regional commander authorized (via input code) group commander can access the vehicle without having to revive any personal.) None of the occupants know of any caches to resupply themselves (or the vehicle).

[cosmicfish]

Where is the vehicle? If it is onsite, why not give them access? They should be entrusted not to steal it, and if the concern is that they will leave the rest high and dry, set the whole group to wake if the vehicle is activated.

And how do you deal with the bolthole being exposed once a single person is activated?

[dragoon500ly]

The bolt-hole is the first hurdle, simply put, first person unforseen and exits the facility leaves a major security breach for the rest of the FW group. IMHO this alone kills the concept. You have already addressed the equipment issue.

I feel that having FW as part of a manned facility, this would allow the facility personnel to be awakened to do their thing, but keep FW on ice until needed. This should help with the security concern.

As for vehicles, Hummers, a 5 ton truck would be all the vehicles FW needs.

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Where is the vehicle?

In a vehicle bay located next to the bolt hole.

If it is onsite, why not give them access?

In the five year post war plan, a team would already be at the bolt hole to retrieve the replacement(s) and would have the vehicle with the empty seats. In a dire situation where many replacements are needed by PB or a regional/ group commander they might not be able to send (nor want) all the teams that need the replacements to the holt hole, therefore, the occupants can access the vehicle for transportation.

And how do you deal with the bolthole being exposed once a single person is activated?

Normally, these bolt holes could be accessed through an 'abandoned' ground structure (usually built to resemble an old machine shop or warehouse) with a cyclone fence surrounding it. This was the camouflage the Project used. It was never meant to survive for 150 years. If an single occupant is awoken by PB at +150 years he will exit through the foundation slab. If he does not think to cover the exit it will be exposed, endangering the remaining occupants.

[Matt W]

I've always assumed that

1. the FW boltholes are designed so that (if necessary) only 1 person can be awakened at a time
2. Each FW member has something like the electric motorbike (as carried on the Science-One). Spare batteries would make sense
3. IF it's all going to plan, the FW would be collected by aircraft

I agree that the FW should have some sort of basic kit. IMHO this would be something like "First Contact" kit

[mmartin798]

Why am I now imagining a panel with a slot next to it. You put you ID card in and make a selection from the panel. Then a horizontal hatch opens and dispenses a cryobed with your selection already starting to wake up. Kind of like soda machine.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

In a vehicle bay located next to the bolt hole.

I am not sure of the value in this, but okay.

Originally Posted by RandyT0001

Normally, these bolt holes could be accessed through an 'abandoned' ground structure (usually built to resemble an old machine shop or warehouse) with a cyclone fence surrounding it. This was the camouflage the Project used. It was never meant to survive for 150 years. If an single occupant is awoken by PB at +150 years he will exit through the foundation slab. If he does not think to cover the exit it will be exposed, endangering the remaining occupants.

Even in the 5 year plan, this is pretty risky. An "abandoned" structure is, within the 5 years post-war, likely to attract scavengers or even squatters. Further, it is likely that the Team will be operating under some degree of observation - a Team approaching a given location, staying there for a period of time, and then leaving with extra people is likely to going to find that their previous spot is not being investigated by people who want whatever was left behind.

Really, in the resource-starved post-apocalypse, both enemies and friends are going to find armored vehicles very interesting, and a Team that has camped for the night should expect to wake up to find that someone has followed their tracks.

Again, my point is not that the FW should not exist, it is that the FW just needs protections that canon does not currently give.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Matt W

I've always assumed that

1. the FW boltholes are designed so that (if necessary) only 1 person can be awakened at a time
2. Each FW member has something like the electric motorbike (as carried on the Science-One). Spare batteries would make sense
3. IF it's all going to plan, the FW would be collected by aircraft

1. Great. How? This requires that the hole can be repeatedly opened and closed and that when it is closed it is safe from potential enemies. How is this accomplished?

2. That is a bunch of bikes that have limited range and serve relatively little use otherwise. Why not just have a Humvee (or such)?

3. That presumes that aircraft are available and this is the best use for them. Not saying it can't happen, just seems like an expensive solution to a cheap problem.

Originally Posted by Matt W

I agree that the FW should have some sort of basic kit. IMHO this would be something like "First Contact" kit

The kit in question is designed for a very different purpose, the basic load already has everything needed for survival.

[Matt W]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

Why am I now imagining a panel with a slot next to it. You put you ID card in and make a selection from the panel. Then a horizontal hatch opens and dispenses a cryobed with your selection already starting to wake up. Kind of like soda machine.

Why not? We have the automated supply base in "Starnaman" . Apply the same approach to Frozen Watch

And the reason I suggest the electric bike is that it doesn't take up much space. Much less space than a HMMWV

I would recommend the "Contact kit" because the FW member may have to travel clandestinely. But, if you prefer, a basic kit could also be issued.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Matt W

I've always assumed that

1. the FW boltholes are designed so that (if necessary) only 1 person can be awakened at a time
2. Each FW member has something like the electric motorbike (as carried on the Science-One). Spare batteries would make sense
3. IF it's all going to plan, the FW would be collected by aircraft

I agree that the FW should have some sort of basic kit. IMHO this would be something like "First Contact" kit

Per "Final Watch" FW-31 has basic issue without weapons or MPV. I agree that the bolt hole design allows for one at a time activation. A design that is more or less a hall way with doors on either side, with one per door.

The first approach was buried under an "ash pit", a refuse dump, from waste at coal plants or incinerators. These are marked on topo maps made by the USGS. A later magazine had the FW buried under a TMP emergny shelter with a MPID access door.

Personally, I think they should have their own weapon with at a minimum the HP-35. Basic issue and winter issue would be ideal with no idea the season when activated.

The canon "basic issue" is pretty inadequate, but that is for another thread.