The 40th Infantry Division

[Enfield]

I'd appreciate some feedback or thoughts from others about this unit.

I have a group of players who are interested in playing out the fate of people attached to this unit. I have no copy of Howling Wilderness only the US Army Vehicle Guide. I had been thinking of placing them generally between Bakersfield and Oxnard, the general N-NW area beyond LA.

A few questions I'm wondering about:

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops?

2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA?

3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them.

4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like?

5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops?

San Joaquin valley.... Very easy if there is water. Bakersfield and Tulare grow just about anything. I have an Aunt there.

Originally Posted by Enfield

2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA?

It is a matter of scale. Windmills spinning and making 12v from alternators is pretty easy stuff. If you want 110v at 60hz another thing entirely. If you're the guy with electric lights, air conditioning, and cold beer expect trouble from criminals and dirty politicians most quick.

Originally Posted by Enfield

3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them.

If you are able to find tires for the bikes or feed for the horses. Neither is being made alot of.

Originally Posted by Enfield

4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like?

thousands.... LA is over 8 million in the 80's... the State .... 20 million?

Originally Posted by Enfield

5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks?

T2K's great failing is that the material gave how many tanks and AT weapons a unit had and failed miserably in the real reapers.... mortar and artillery tubes.

The number of vehiles a unit has or might have is driven by the type of unit itself.... A U.S. Armor company would have 4 tanks per platoon... but the HQ would have an M577 and probably an M113...... plus CUCVs for the 1SG to get chow and supply to go get everything else. Light Infantry, nothing, they rely on their Battalion, Regiment, Brigade, and Division for motor transport. This gets wierder and different from Division to Division as not all MTOE is the same across Big Army.

[Enfield]

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

What I'm trying to figure out is this: how many of all that would be left? The 40th is stated to have 3,000 troops left and about 24 IFVs which include a couple of M728s. For stuff like this, what have you done?

I was thinking of removing maybe all but one or two helicopters due to fuel shortages, and maybe a single battery of howitzers and rockets kept for a desperate emergency. Then cutting the number of ground ops battalions to five, and giving them smaller numbers of APCs or scout vehicles and having the rest be HMMWVs or converted civilian vehicles.

As I say though, I'm curious about what others have done.

[pmulcahy11b]

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

[Olefin]

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

[Louied]

From the California Military Museum

http://www.militarymuseum.org/40thORBAT94.html

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Enfield

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

Keep in mind that its one thing to be in Central Poland which was fought over and nuked over and over and over - its another to be in the area from San Francisco to Bakersfield - there was some fighting at the south and a few nukes - but not even close to the devastation you would see, for instance, in Manchuria, Northern China, Poland, western Czechoslovakia or Germany

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

That's my general thought as well--I thought that a large enclave zone would make sense with the area between Bakersfield and LA being scavenged and patrolled. I thought it would be fun if there were communities that the Player Characters would also try to get into contact with to gain intel, resources and assistance from in exchange for miltary assistance of whatever kind.

i also wondered what would happen to the other military and state police assets down around there, it strikes me as considerable in numbers and that they should not be written off so casually.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

Scroll down the list....All of them are hyperlinks to each type of unit. Reading carefully in the print you will see exactly how many vehicles are assigned and to whom.

The reason that isn't so easy to answer is that there are different MTOEs for different Aviation units, and that is the same for all of them.

Light Utility Battalion
1 HQ Company and 4 Aviation Companies.

HQ Company
16 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
1 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
3 x 2 1/2-T Trk

Aviation Company
8 UH-1H
6 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
9 x 2 1/2-T Trk
6 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
1 x 5-T 6x6 Wrkr
2 x Trk Forklift

2. MISSION/CAPABILITIES/SECTION I.

a. Provides command, control, supervision, and planning of
operations for the Reserve Component Light Utility Aviation
Battalion.

b. Provides utility helicopter elements for rapid employment
as a part of the combined arms force.

c. Provides unit level personnel service and logistical
support for all organic or attached units.

d. See the appropriate TOE Section I for a complete list of
capabilities and limitations of these units.

3. ASSIGNMENT. Organic to the Corps Aviation Group, TOE 01410A.

4. PERSONNEL.

a. Personnel strength for this organization is as follows:

TOE DESIGN DOCUMENTED DIFFERENCE

01456A000 N/A 80 N/A
01457A000 X 4 N/A 90 N/A

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Louied

From the California Military Museum

http://www.militarymuseum.org/40thORBAT94.html

Thanks very much!

[ArmySGT.]

Attack Helicopter Battalion.

1 Headquarter and Headquarters Company.
3 Attack Companies.
1 Aviation Unit Maintenance Company.

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

Attack Company
8 AH-64A
2 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
1 x 2 1/2-T Trk

Aviation Unit Maintenance Company
2 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
1 x Trk Forklift
1 x 2 1/2-T Van

2. MISSION/CAPABILITIES/SECTION I.

a. Provides command, control, supervision, and planning of
operations for the Attack Battalion.

b. Provides attack helicopter elements for rapid employment as
a part of the combined arms force.

c. Provides aerial escort and suppressive fires for air assault
or other tactical operations, mobile firepower to exploit the effects
of artillery and other indirect fire, or highly mobile aerial fire-
power for other tactical missions.

d. Provides unit level personnel service and logistical support
for all organic or attached units, including aviation unit mainten-
ance for all organic aircraft.

e. See the appropriate TOE Section I for a complete list of
capabilities and limitations of these units.

3. ASSIGNMENT. Organic to the Division Aviation Brigade, TOE 01200A
or 01300A or Corps Aviation Brigade, TOE 01480A.

4. PERSONNEL.

a. Personnel strength for this organization is as follows:

TOE DESIGN DOCUMENTED DIFFERENCE

01386A200 N/A 133 N/A
01387A200 X 3 N/A 27 N/A
01389A200 N/A 116 N/A

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

The problem with answering is......the MTOE is different for Battalions and Companies due to the type of Division these were built to be a part of..

40th is what type of Infantry Division? With all the Mechanized Battalions I would have to surmise it is an ersatz Mechanized Infantry Division (Minus)... Lacking alot of support units and its Armor Battalions.

Assuming Mechanized Infantry.

Where are the Two and supposed to three Brigade HQ units and Division Support Brigade HQ?


bah! damn this forum software formatting.

I'll do it in Word and make a PDF so it is possible to read it.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

The problem with answering is......the MTOE is different for Battalions and Companies due to the type of Division these were built to be a part of..

40th is what type of Infantry Division? With all the Mechanized Battalions I would have to surmise it is an ersatz Mechanized Infantry Division (Minus)... Lacking alot of support units and its Armor Battalions.

Assuming Mechanized Infantry.

Where are the Two and supposed to three Brigade HQ units and Division Support Brigade HQ?


bah! damn this forum software formatting.

I'll do it in Word and make a PDF so it is possible to read it.

Thanks--I think to be really clear: I'm not concerned about how much they have NOW. I get all that. What I'm trying to figure out is what they would have LEFT by 2001 April of the campaign setting.

For instance, you mention this:

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

So what would the HHC have left? According to what you wrote above, 1, perhaps 2 HMMWVs, 2, perhaps 3 5-T trucks, 0 2 1/2 tons or forklifts.

However I wonder about that--what kind of forklifts are these anyway? I have operated forklifts and they were either electrical or propane.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Enfield

Thanks--I think to be really clear: I'm not concerned about how much they have NOW. I get all that. What I'm trying to figure out is what they would have LEFT by 2001 April of the campaign setting.

For instance, you mention this:

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

So what would the HHC have left? According to what you wrote above, 1, perhaps 2 HMMWVs, 2, perhaps 3 5-T trucks, 0 2 1/2 tons or forklifts.

However I wonder about that--what kind of forklifts are these anyway? I have operated forklifts and they were either electrical or propane.

Probably Rough Terrain Forklifts.....maybe Telehandlers. The BTOE is not that specific. These are heavy equipment and have diesel engines.

The basis is what did they start with....when was the Division activated and what was available to form a Division at that time? If the Division was active before the war it would have 100%. Activated after the war began and that goes down. Their are categories of mobilization, that determines what a unit has..... Down at Category C mobilization the unit has the barest cadre of Officers and Non commissioned Officers without equipment or lower enlisted. While and all up Level 1 has everything and everyone (ideally).

There are several factors in what to they have now....... 2000....
What did they have at activation?
What losses have they taken in combat?
What losses have they taken to wear/tear and lack of parts?
What was taken by a higher HQ and distributed to other units to attain some level of mission readiness? Example..... 5ton trucks taken from Aviation Maintenance and transferred to Division Artillery to move towed guns.

At what minimum is the unit still capable of performing their mission or mission support activities?

Meh infantry Battalion.pdf

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Probably Rough Terrain Forklifts.....maybe Telehandlers. The BTOE is not that specific. These are heavy equipment and have diesel engines.

The basis is what did they start with....when was the Division activated and what was available to form a Division at that time? If the Division was active before the war it would have 100%. Activated after the war began and that goes down. Their are categories of mobilization, that determines what a unit has..... Down at Category C mobilization the unit has the barest cadre of Officers and Non commissioned Officers without equipment or lower enlisted. While and all up Level 1 has everything and everyone (ideally).

There are several factors in what to they have now....... 2000....
What did they have at activation?
What losses have they taken in combat?
What losses have they taken to wear/tear and lack of parts?
What was taken by a higher HQ and distributed to other units to attain some level of mission readiness? Example..... 5ton trucks taken from Aviation Maintenance and transferred to Division Artillery to move towed guns.

At what minimum is the unit still capable of performing their mission or mission support activities?

Attachment 4095

This is what is in the US Army Vehicle Guide.

40TH INFANTRY DIVISION (Mechanized) (less 1st Brigade)
The division was formed at Camp Rilea, Oregon on 1/1 7/98 as the 40th Training Division from surviving command and support personnel of the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) which had been evacuated from Germany. The division was quickly brought up to strength by recent inductees and assigned a variety of security, disaster relief and reconstruction tasks in Oregon and northern California. In March the division came under command of the newly-activated 63rd US Corps and moved south by road. In May the division arrived at Camp Roberts, California.

After being reinforced by a variety of armored vehicles the division was again redesignated as 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) and committed to combat against elements of the Mexican Army and assorted armed bands.

Tbe missing 1st Brigade is, according to canon, still in Austria.

[ArmySGT.]

Jesus the T2K canon is full stupid sometimes.

A Division (minus) is formed in January of 98 from a cadre of veterans.

Instead of training with the new troops and equipment they under take non combat operations, then six weeks later deploy to combat.

On the plus side...... formed in 98 with veterans of combat in Europe.

So they get formed with the War Reserve (if that hasn't been nuked) from Sierra Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot, and some others. That's good news they should have received 100% of the equipment in pristine depot condition.

Six weeks isn't enough time to work up to an acceptable level of training and competence for the new soldiers assigned or the Division readiness either.

Without the Armor Battalions, the unit isn't ready. That is taking one whole piece out of the Combined Arms Team and a doctrinal failure. The M2 Bradley unit would have to be used as the Armor force and probably have been decimated with the survivors now light infantry for the most part. The Attack Aviation is probably decimated too. Battle damage and high use without spares from the high tempo of screening and scouting for light armor doing the heavy armor mission.

Deployed by road? No.

Tanks and anything on tracks doesn't go long distances on their tracks due to wear and maintenance issues.

Somehow, this 63rd Corps brought in a hundred or more civilian low boy tractor trailers and drove them to California. Whew. That was expensive and difficult. Then a hundred or more civilian buses to move the people.

Where did they get half a million gallons of diesel in 98?

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Jesus the T2K canon is full stupid sometimes.

A Division (minus) is formed in January of 98 from a cadre of veterans.

Instead of training with the new troops and equipment they under take non combat operations, then six weeks later deploy to combat.

On the plus side...... formed in 98 with veterans of combat in Europe.

So they get formed with the War Reserve (if that hasn't been nuked) from Sierra Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot, and some others. That's good news they should have received 100% of the equipment in pristine depot condition.

Six weeks isn't enough time to work up to an acceptable level of training and competence for the new soldiers assigned or the Division readiness either.

Without the Armor Battalions, the unit isn't ready. That is taking one whole piece out of the Combined Arms Team and a doctrinal failure. The M2 Bradley unit would have to be used as the Armor force and probably have been decimated with the survivors now light infantry for the most part. The Attack Aviation is probably decimated too. Battle damage and high use without spares from the high tempo of screening and scouting for light armor doing the heavy armor mission.

Deployed by road? No.

Tanks and anything on tracks doesn't go long distances on their tracks due to wear and maintenance issues.

Somehow, this 63rd Corps brought in a hundred or more civilian low boy tractor trailers and drove them to California. Whew. That was expensive and difficult. Then a hundred or more civilian buses to move the people.

Where did they get half a million gallons of diesel in 98?

I was thinking that the story needs to be narrowed down, not just to make sense but provide a background that works with the setting.

BTW, is there any reason trains could not be used to transport the gear, vehicles and people? That seems more efficient and less costly to me. As i understand it there are both freight and Amtrak hubs in Bakersfield.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

[Olefin]

and where do you get a million gallons of diesel in 1998- lots of places if you are the US Army - the fuel shortage per the canon as far as the Army running out of fuel didnt hit until later in the year after the Mexicans invasion disrupted supplies coming out of Texas - now moving that division in 2001 would mean having oil from Bakersfield - and luckily for the US they still have both the oil field and the refinery

[Matt Wiser]

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

I suspect it depends on what you are up against as well. If you are largely up against people who are at most armed with small arms and improved weapons, WWII era vehicles and armour are likely to be very effective. Even against lightly armed military units they would pose a threat. My only question is this: would the 40th ID make use of such vehicles if they had access to depots and replacement parts? How soon do you think such things would run out?

[Enfield]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Lovely stuff. Where is it, exactly?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Matt Wiser

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Olefin mentioned the Littlefield collection earlier. It's a post from yesterday and as Olefin said, the collection held items from the WW1 up to the 1980s but, when considering the T2k world, also included some 1990s vehicles. And it wasn't just armoured vehicles, he also collected military trucks, artillery and a small collection of infantry weapons.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

[Olefin]

Location of the collection is the following:

Location Portola Valley, California
Coordinates 37.200978°N 122.112816°W

Its in the mountains between San Jose and Santa Cruz

The ones that he had running and operational he had spare parts for - i.e. the whole collection wasnt operational but he had a significant amount of vehicles ranging from tanks to trucks to self propelled guns that were fully operational and had spare parts for - when the place was auctioned off a lot of what was bought was the huge spare part collection he had - and some of his vehicles (like his Ferret for instance) would have only needed to have functional machine guns put on them and they would have been fully ready for combat

As for ammo for the bigger vehicles - he had a lot of shells of various kinds that could have been used - they were practice rounds (and from what I understood he did have a small amount of live ammo as well) but those could have been made live - keep in mind that the many of the tanks and other armed vehicles he had used the same ammo that was already being used by MilGov units in the area (i.e. for instance for his M60A1 that had a live barrel and for his M60A2 with the live barrel as well as his Centurion Mk13 that used the same ammo that the M1 used) - so its more a case of some of the oddballs instead of most of what he had that was working

As an example of what he had this is the description of the M50 Israeli Sherman Tank that he had including its condition and the spares that came with it when it was auctioned off

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun? The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

"The tank being offered, M50 Israeli Sherman Medium Tank, is in beautiful condition. It is based on an M4A4 hull and has been upgraded by the Israelis with a Cummins diesel and HVSS. In Israeli terms, this version of the M50 is considered to have all of the final modifications done to it. It has the later engine deck with the exhaust louvers cut into it and the engine exhaust outlet mounted on the rear of the engine deck. An exhaust outlet for the auxiliary generator is fitted to the left side of the hull. It has full applique armor on both the hull and turret. A bracket for carrying a roll of barbed wire is mounted on the driver's applique armor plate. Exterior and interior paint are perfect. The turret bares the tank number “A-2” in Hebrew. All exterior lights are present and intact. A bracket for a main armament searchlight is mounted on the mantlet. However, the searchlight is not included. A canvas cover that is in excellent condition seals the gap between the gun mantlet and front of the turret. The turret roof in front of the commander's cupola has been fitted by the Israelis with a second machine gun pintle socket. The tracks, wheels and other suspension components are perfect. It is currently equipped with T84 rubber block tracks. Two different drive sprocket plates are fitted to this tank, the D47366B forged type and the D47366 flat plate type. The engine runs well and the vehicle drives well. All driver controls function normally. The turret has the hand-operated spotlight mounted on the roof. The commander's turret hatch rotates freely on its ball race. All hatches open and close normally. The canvas head pads on the hatches are in very good condition. The main armament elevates and depresses manually. The turret rotates manually. The operational status of the hydraulic turret traverse is not known. A U.S. VRC-type radio is installed inside the turret bustle; however, it is not known if it is operational. Crew intercom boxes are mounted at each crew station. All periscope glass is in good condition. Several spare periscope blocks are included. It comes equipped with six spare track links, two spare roadwheels, seven Israeli pattern plastic water cans, and several machine gun ammunition boxes. Pioneer tools included with the tank include the axe, mattock and mattock handle.

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

Please note, this lot is a registered Destructive Device. Bidders for this lot must meet certain qualifications; please review the BATFE guidelines"

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

And I agree with Paul - remember the canon statement in the US Army Vehicle Guide - and I quote "by 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank"

Thus even a fully functional Sherman tank would be considered a very useful addition to any US unit by 2000-2001