CVG 1 and 8 Composition - OpOmega

[kalos72]

So most appear to believe that there's 2 carrier groups still available come OpOmega.

CVG 1 with the America and CVG 8 with the Roosevelt

What would those groups look like at the time?

[Olefin]

The real question is whether or not they are operational carrier groups - that means that you have ships to be able to support the carrier, fuel to be able to keep them at sea, fuel for the planes to actually be operational and not just turn over their engines, enough ammo to conduct operations, etc.

A carrier group is a lot more than just the carrier - even if both are fully operational as ships do they have enough planes to be able to really conduct operations - as in actual squadron strength and not just a couple of F-14's and Hornets

so they could be afloat and have crews - but without enough planes to actually be able to do anything - i.e. non-operational

Now there is one operational carrier group still around- and that is in the Persian Gulf and is build around a Marine carrier -thats in the RDF - and it has planes, fuel and support ships

[kalos72]

Well, when you go off of some non-canon writing like "Pacific" there are ALOT more ships around, just low on fuel, crew and support. I will NOT get into a debate about there being ONE SSN left out of the entire US Navy...

However, there is some mixed information I have found about what these groups were at the time:

USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN-71) with CVW-8
Tico CG cv8
Monterey Bainbridge CGN cv8
Bainbridge Nimitz CVN cv8
Roosevelt Spruance DD cv8
Conolly Burke DDG cv8
Carney

USS America (CV-66) with CVW-1
RK Turner Leahy CG cv5
San Jacinto Tico CG cv5
America Kitty Hawk CV cv5
Hayler Spruance DD cv5
Mitscher Burke DDG cv5

OR

Wainwright Belknap CG cv1
Hue City Tico CG cv1
Forrestal Forrestal CV cv1
Spruance Spruance DD cv1
Burke Burke DDG cv1

[swaghauler]

Even without aircraft, the carriers are NUCLEAR AND REQUIRE NO FUEL. I can only imagine how many vehicles or cargo containers you can store on the hanger deck. All you have to do is load AFVs onto the flight deck with a crane (easily loaded at any port and chained to the deck) and use the elevators to get them below. Both the hanger AND the flight deck come with heavy duty tie-downs suitable for light AFVs. The CVNs could be the answer to a heavy lift operation designed to get equipment home to the US.

This also brings me to a point where I often question the idea of bringing "museum ships" back into service. Many of those ships are in need of MAJOR repairs to their power and engineering systems to bring them up to seaworthiness. You would still need to provide them with a large quantity of Fuel Oil to move them ANYWHERE. The easier solution would be to expend those resources RETROFITTING modern ships with lighter weaponry. The types of fishing vessels you see off of the US East Coast could be used. You really don't need the most sophisticated power systems or electronics to fit a manually-run 40mm Bofors or a WW II-Era 20mm Cannon to fend off pirates who might be equipped with a .50 Caliber Machinegun. Those ships are already seaworthy AND require much less fuel than a retired Destroyer. Some examples of weapon systems that could be fitted include:

-20mm Cannon taken from museum ships.
-40mm Bofors taken from museum ships.
-57mm AA/DP powered BUT CREWED Guns taken from older museum ships
-76mm/3" AA/DP guns taken from either museum ships or mothballed Amphibious Assault Ships (which were equipped with powered BUT CREWED 76mm AA/DP mounts up to the Raleigh Class).
- Single (1,000kg) or Triple Torpedo Tube Launchers (3,000kg). These would require the "plumbing" of a high-pressure air line in addition to electric power but ANY HVAC worker can plumb that.
-Depth Charge & Mine Racks either new manufacture OR WW II vintage.
- MK38 25mm Cannon Mounts (requires ship power) like the ones waist-mounted on the OHP Frigates and the Amphibious Assault Ships.
-SEARAM (RAM MISSILE) CIWS LAUNCHERS (requires ship's power).
-SEAWIZ (20mm) CIWS (requires ship's power).
- Customized mounts for ground artillery like the M119 105mm or M114 155mm Howitzers. Even tank guns could be fitted.

[kalos72]

We are talking through the use of smaller ships, some AAA guns and makeshift torpedo tubes as a way to build a commerce raider group or coastal guard. Also thinking in the Great Lakes as well...

I am not sure who wrote the "Pacific" docu but they have ALOT of ships in the Pacifics then anyone has documented in the Atlantic...out of fuel, supplies and support of course. But alive, afloat and serviceable.

Since Op Omega was a MAJOR operation for the US, I assume a cmplet and full withdrawal would be wanted. That means every single asset possible.

If 2 carrier groups were available, the idea of leaving all your heavy equipment behind seems all that more unlikely.

We never supported that idea mind you, our OpOmega was much larger...

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by kalos72

We never supported that idea mind you, our OpOmega was much larger...

How did you do your OpOmega?

[kalos72]

Matt Wiser directed me to Olefin's Fanzine notes about the CVG's. Thank you BOTH!

We did a full withdrawal. All equipment, all personnel and all naval and air assets.

We simply dont believe that EVERY major surface asset was destroyed. Yes out of fuel...but available.

So we had the two major CVG's and 2 dozenish assorted ships as part of the withdrawal. Which ships EXACTLY was still contested but I am trying to lock that down since we are now looking at using hose assets to retake San Diego and withdraw the Korean Forces.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Since Op Omega was a MAJOR operation for the US, I assume a complete and full withdrawal would be wanted. That means every single asset possible.

If 2 carrier groups were available, the idea of leaving all your heavy equipment behind seems all that more unlikely.

Omega was only possible because the the crude oil in the tanker the Germans had in their possession. The US paid for that oil with their heavy equipment, and also, the available shipping did not allow them to take much in the way of equipment anyway - perhaps a few light communications vehicles and/or a helicopter or two.

Available shipping capacity is barely enough to allow the approximately 43,000 Americans remaining in Europe to leave at the same time. In order for everyone to make it, strict adherence to the baggage allowance will be enforced.

We can also be fairly certain there's one ship which was in the area a few months before which was not involved in Omega - the USS Tarawa. The notes for plate C1 in the Nautical/Aviation Handbook locates it with the Atlantic Fleet in 2000, likely in the first half of the year. If it was still seaworthy it would have been the flagship (a floating command centre is one of it's main roles) in preference to the USS John Hancock, which at best probably had an ad hoc command post set up in the hangar.

Given Omega required the German crude oil to be possible, it's therefore very likely most, if not all surviving nuclear powered ships in the hemisphere were heavily damaged and unseaworthy, otherwise, why was the oil needed, and the limited capability Spruance class Destroyer, the USS John Hancock, the Flagship?

[Olefin]

I have a feeling they actually brought a lot more equipment home than Omega implies - and no not tanks - but insisting on bringing on 50 cal MG, 25mm autocannons, mortars and towed artillery - and possibly a couple of M109's tied down to the deck of ships that they can be loaded onto - yup that I can see for sure - those are civilian ships remember - and the US military took a hell of a lot of casualties from raiders and pirates - no way are you going to just jam 43,000 guys on defenseless ships

thus they need that to arm the ships to defend themselves - and they sure arent going to ship it back once it gets to the US

as for Tarawa - that book remember was for both Twilight 2000 and for Merc 2000 - so its still an open question if the reference to Tarawa being part of the Atlantic Fleet applied to both timelines

also lets say those nuke powered ships are still afloat - they may have simply been not available - i.e. they are in the Pacific and dont have escorts - and you dont send a nuke carrier by itself with no escorts especially if it doesnt have flyable aircraft left -

[kalos72]

The oil found for OpOmega isnt German...its the German merchant marine that secures the deal for leaving the US heavy equipment.

Now with possibly 2 carrier groups in the area, I cannot see the US being ok with leaving them, thats just silly. Especially since at least one is nuclear...

Hell Russia had a destroyer off the coast of Mexico working in 1999...

But again, I am not trying to rehash this point as I know it's one of those highly contested details.

The fanzine details help alot, thank you!

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by kalos72

The oil found for OpOmega isnt German...

The tanker was found off Borkum Island, which is part of Germany. A look at territorial waters shows it is very likely the ship was in at least the German Exclusive Economic Zone, if not the Contiguous or even Territorial zone - the latter being most likely since the Island is specially mentioned as the nearby landmark.

Attachment 4154

Now if we really want to dig into salvage law and if the ship was found in international waters (unlikely), we'll see that the cargo is actually still the property of the owners of the ship, even if the ship itself becomes the property of the salvagers. Given the US only sources a small percentage of their oil from the North sea, both compared to total US imports and total European (specifically North Sea) production, it seems extremely unlikely a US company owns it.

So, in summary, it's not US oil and Germany has a VERY good claim on it.

[kalos72]

Your reading into it...

Accordingly, SACEUR, the Supreme Allied Command, Europe (or what’s left of it) has decided to evacuate all USAEUR (US Army, Europe) forces from the continent and return them to America. The German government (what’s left of it) has agreed to cooperate and to allow the American forces to make use of the remains of the German merchant marine. The fleet consists of a hodge-podge collection of container ships, general cargo ships and tankers (converted to passenger service by rough wooden constructions in their holds), excursion ships, and smaller vessels (river boats and channel ferries) felt to be large enough to be able to survive the crossing.

An oil tanker, found drifting at sea off Borkum Island in the North Sea, is being tapped to provide the fuel for the crossing (crude oil can be burned in diesel engines, but it doesn‘t do them much good). There is no refinery in northern Germany operating yet, and it will be too long before one can be brought back on line.

In return, the Americans have agreed to leave their heavy equipment behind for use by Germany (since there is no room for it aboard the evacuation fleet anyway). The evacuation has been code-named Omega, the final letter of the Greek alphabet and a traditional symbol of endings and final chapters.

[Legbreaker]

I'm extrapolating based on the information presented in the books, along with international and German marine law.
With that in mind, there's practically no way it's US oil.