Police Forces

[CJHusVar]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the status of some of the larger urban police departments? I don't really find anything in the published material that discusses them. "State Defense Forces", sure, but nothing on local or state law enforcement.

These are LARGE organizations, especially when one looks at departments like the NYPD, the Chicago Police and the LAPD. Granted a good number of officers would be mobilized reservists or draftees, but surely these agencies just didn't pack it in.

[Olefin]

The NYC module Armies of the Night mentions that whats left of the police force has retreated from Manhattan and is with what is left of the city government in the Bronx - describes it as a handful of metropolitan police. You would figure that in many areas the police may have broken up or been recruited into either militia units or impressed into military MP forces.

[Raellus]

I've been wrestling with this question in my Arkansas-set T2030 campaign. Like you said, a lot of reservists and National / State Guard members will be recalled to active duty. Then again, a lot of volunteer and auxiliaries will likely be "called up to the big leagues" as it were. I reckon you'd see a lot of hasty deputizations as well. I still think you'd see a net loss in law enforcement manpower at pretty much every level (national, state, county, municipal), though, with departments shrinking as they lose officers to the military.

I think it will also vary state-by-state. I think a lot of states will declare martial law and activate their State Guard/State Defense Force, using said at least part of the time for law enforcement duties. This would be prevalent in states that have been invaded (i.e. the Southwest or Alaska & the Pacific Northwest), or those dealing with groups like New America.

In any case, State Guard /SDFs will probably wear two hats- traditional military and law enforcement.

[Legbreaker]

Working on what to do with police in the Anzac book too. What I've come to is that every area will be different and local conditions dictate the situation.
One area for example is essentially a police state with the government and law enforcement holding very tight control over almost all aspects of the citizens there.
Other areas the best you can hope for is a sympathetic vigilante coming by....maybe...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I can imagine though, that governments would try to preserve their various police forces for as long as possible simply because you still need police even if there's a war on.
I would question the idea of most (or even, many) police officers being called up for military service because there has already been a precedent set from WW2 whereby certain occupations were seen as vital for the functioning of the state and were thus exempt from military service.

This exemption, depending on the national need, applied to farmers, truck & train drivers and police as well as other occupations.
However for T2k, once the war starts grinding down the world and governments start losing their influence & control, I can easily see the police force being run down either through poaching of personnel, neglect by the government or by choice of the individual police officers (who feel that other issues are of more concern for them e.g. protecting their families).

[bash]

I don't see any reason for anyone's military to actively draft police officers for military service in the TW. In terms of warm bodies the selective service pool is far larger and skews younger than the average police officer. A drafted police officer and fresh high school graduate require the same BT/AIT investment. It's not like you hand the typical police officer an M-16 and they're an instant Rambo. Even SWAT is usually just some extra training, a couple qualifications, and getting to wear TactiCool gear once in a while.

That being said, there's no way any government is going to take police off the streets in light of a nuclear exchange. Most areas will need all the help they can get maintaining order and/or responding to the active disaster that is the world. Police forces would likely increase in manpower with deputization and crash training programs.

As order breaks down later in the war police forces might form the nucleus of some local militias or bandit gangs due to the fact they had some pre-war organization and infrastructure. Police stations would also make good HQs for militias and bandits for the same reasons.

[mpipes]

In my campaign, the LAPD became more dependent on Reserve police officer, and many of the Reserve force were working full time as police officers by TDM. Most of the LAPD personnel was killed during TDM and in the immediate aftermath. The entire area was still very chaotic when the Mexican Army invaded, and most surviving officers ended up in ad hoc militia units fighting the Mexican Army. Most police armories were destroyed by firestorms in the aftermath of the nuclear attack. Surviving police armories have been thoroughly culled through by surviving officers or systematically looted. Even most of the destroyed armories were picked over by salvage parties or looters, but there are pockets of police weapons and ammo still remaining in the ruins of police stations.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by bash

A drafted police officer and fresh high school graduate require the same BT/AIT investment. It's not like you hand the typical police officer an M-16 and they're an instant Rambo.

I can't speak for other countries of course, but here police are barely trained with their service pistol and are lucky to fire off a mag or two on the range once a year. The priority is on them finding ways to avoid the need to shoot, and most couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with another barn!
Even the supposed "elites" of the various tactical response groups (pick your appropriate acronym) aren't known for their proficiency or even general firearms knowledge.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I can't speak for other countries of course, but here police are barely trained with their service pistol and are lucky to fire off a mag or two on the range once a year. The priority is on them finding ways to avoid the need to shoot, and most couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with another barn!
Even the supposed "elites" of the various tactical response groups (pick your appropriate acronym) aren't known for their proficiency or even general firearms knowledge.

Hehehe oh yeah, spot on.
I remember watching the news at various times in the 1990s, where they showed footage of some of Australia's special police units when they were tracking dangerous fugitives in the Aussie bush. You could immediately spot the ones who had some bush knowledge or even just bush walking experience - they were the only ones who were not looking at their feet as they "cleared" the scrub. And sad to say, there weren't many of them with any sort of rural tactical knowledge until the started getting training from the SAS.

A mate of mine is a former Western Australian Police (WAPol) officer, his experiences with some of the officers from the Tactical Response Group (TRG, the West Aussie police special unit) was... well, let's just say less than favourable. In his own words, half of them were decent officers, the other half were cowboys who wanted the prestige of being in the "elite" unit.

The TRG have a few nicknames and none of the ones I've heard are positive...
The Terribly Rough Guys is probably the least negative (but it's also the one that many WAPol officers used when talking about the TRG).
Another, based on their fairly common ability to raid the wrong house when attempting to capture dangerous criminals was Totally (w)Rong Grid. You don't get nicknames like that unless you're consistently fucking up.

[Olefin]

I actually go into some detail on the police in Kenya who are one of the few countries that still have intact police forces - and I address issues like how they were not known for being the best shots or being very well armed. Of course there the police are broken up into various branches including the General Service Unit which is a paramilitary branch.

[Gunner]

So, I can only speak to my experience. I currently live in Urban Maryland, but for eight years I lived in Central Arkansas. My family has a long history in law enforcement that I won't bore you with.

The primary reason that I believe you would see very poor retention among most law enforcement agencies is that a good part of the force, sometimes a majority, just doesn't live in the community where they work. For example, if I recall correctly, the last time I checked, something like 60% of the Little Rock (AR) Police Department lives outside the city. I know in my small town, nearly all of the patrol officers lived elsewhere. Only Sergeants and above generally lived in town, and not all of them. I recall that our Chief of Police actually lived in another town, where he had worked his way up the ranks. When he was passed over for the Chief's job in his town, he took the job in our town. Not sure how long he stayed. Law enforcement is one career where at least limited geographic mobility was the norm. It's my experience, that a police officer might work for three or four different departments over a 20-year career and might leave a department for a span of years and then return when a new opportunity becomes available.

Of course, post-Twilight War, this kind of mobility will be unheard of and I could see a 'reshuffling' of officers, as some officers stay and protect the communities they DO live in, but there is also the additional issue that, outside of densely urban areas, alot of officers live in the rural area outside the city/town area where they work and would, I feel, be motivated to "protect the homestead" rather than a community of semi-strangers.

The issue of law enforcement officers also being subject to military reserve/National Guard recall has been covered well by others.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Hehehe oh yeah, spot on.

This rather nicely sums up most of them.

Attachment 4289

[Raellus]

I wish that were the case here. Police in the U.S. are much more heavily armed, mostly because the populace is too.

I'm no legal expert, but I reckon that reservists and National Guardsmen in law enforcement wouldn't be given the choice to stay with their departments if/whn called up. I think this would have a significant impact on police strength. I can't give you a percentage right now, but quite a few police officers/sheriff's deputies are ex-military. And, even with the draft, I think the government would dip into the civilian law enforcement pool. IIRC, I've read articles about police departments struggling to put officers on the streets during the Iraq surge, when the DoD was desperate for boots on the ground overseas.

I agree that after the TDM, all bets would be off and it would be every state and municipality for itself.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

<snip> And, even with the draft, I think the government would dip into the civilian law enforcement pool. IIRC, I've read articles about police departments struggling to put officers on the streets during the Iraq surge, when the DoD was desperate for boots on the ground overseas.
<snip>

Do you think that thought process would still be applied in a world war situation? I'm inclined to think that with the massive reduction of male population due to the need for warm bodies on the front lines of a world war, that it would be given a lot of serious thought by the government before pillaging police manpower.
The reason I think that is because I think it would be more important than ever to maintain (somewhat effective) police forces while the national effort is focused on the global conflict.

[CDAT]

I think that it would depend on the point of the conflict. Just looking at my old department, when I was with them we had about twenty five officers, I do not know how we compared to other departments but at least 75% of our officer were prior service or in the guard/reserves. With about 1/3 to 1/2 of them in the Guard/Reserves we would lose them likely at the start of the war. How many of the others would we lose when they started needing more people, as most of them were recently out so not much needed to bring them back up to speed, or fill out leaderships spots in the expanding military?

[Legbreaker]

My first reserve unit had a policeman as a member. Even though it was peace time and he had a relatively easy "day" job (was able to pick his own hours, etc as he was assigned to a small one man post about 45 minutes out of town), he still had great difficulty balancing the two roles.
Didn't take long before he dropped the army entirely and focused solely on being a policeman.

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

I kind of agree, I do not think that it would be done on purpose, but early stages when the called up units I do not think that they would make exceptions for police, as that would likely make major leadership holes in the military unit (not all but most I would think). After this I think most departments would be able to deal by mandatory overtime, longer shifts and the like. Then when they started recalling the IRR (US term, Individual Ready Reserve, people who have gotten out recently and are still within eight years of joining) I again do not see they exempting the police. Now having said this I think that this mostly applies to the US, and there is also a system for the Guard/Reserves that an employee can be designated by their employer as critical to the job, I do not know all the requirements for it (I do not know if private employers can do this or only government for example). During my time in the Guard and as a Officer I deployed two time and my department was not happy, however when told about the way that they could designate us as critical they were unwilling to do so, off the top of my head I do not know of any that have ever even tried to use it. I do know of some that if you join that agence you can not be a member of the Guard or Reserves, and if you are they will discharge you.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

[CJHusVar]

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them? I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

[CJHusVar]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

The French Gendarmerie Nationale comes to mind. They police rural areas and small towns, but have a wartime security mission under the Ministry of Defense. The Police Nationale have jurisdiction in larger towns and cities and fall under the Ministry of the Interior. I'm sure they have wartime contingency plans as well.

[Raellus]

I think it bears looking at what countries have historically done during total, modern wars. I don't know if police forces in the major democracies were reduced to provide military manpower during WW2, but I know that, late in the war, many German police forces were stripped bare to bolster Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm units. And Nazi Germany was a police state!

I'd like to hear from someone who has expertise on the subject of law enforcement in the Allied nations during WW2.

It's been pointed out, but bears repeated that some urban police forces would be all but destroyed by nuclear strikes, and this could have a knock-on effect on the police forces of affected suburbs and surrounding satellite towns.

[Olefin]

Look at the Los Angeles area - given the number of nuclear weapons used and their effects the LAPD must have taken catastrophic losses during the strikes and riots and disruptions afterward - I would have been surprised if ten to fifteen percent were still on their feet within a couple of days of the strikes. Same for the police in Washington DC and other areas hit heavily.

And with those departments gone the surrounding areas would have had major issues trying to keep any order at all

[Raellus]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by copeab

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

re #3, you really think so? I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I suppose there could be some isolated incidents of rogue prison wardens "liquidating" inmates after the TDM breakdown of civilization, but, at least in the USA., don't you think citizen's concept of civil, constitutional rights, and due process (not to mention basic human rights) would be a major obstacle to any, systematic large-scale executions?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Raellus

re #3, you really think so? I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Serious, although this will vary by nation and reason for incarceration. For example, I would not expect serial killers or pedophiles to be given a rifle or shovel. Mass murderers are iffy, depending on how likely they are deemed to turn on their (non-criminal) superiors.

The executions might be organized, by some guards on their way out, or by other prisoners.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by CJHusVar

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them? I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

Just remember that under martial law, civil law is suspended, and only military law is active. So either they would be drafted into the military or they are no longer law enforcement. I would guess that they would be "drafted" as an entire unit as a "MP Brigade"

As for the other FLEO's I would guess that they are either going to be part of CivGov where they would still be FLEO's or if they go with MilGov then they would be incorporated (drafted/direct commissioned) in the MP's or CID.

[pmulcahy11b]

[QUOTE=Raellus;82751]What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

For maximum security-type nasty individuals, lock them in their cells, weld the bars shut, then walk away from the place. You get to avoid mass executions and they will cease to be a problem sooner or later except for the escape artists. Stations sharpshooter teams around the prison for a while and have then shoot anyone who makes it out.

For less "acute" criminals, these can be recruited into work gangs, or if they have usable skills and still remember enough of them, put their knowledge to work. Stoners and drunks will probably benefit from work gangs while they get clean; then you can find out if they also have any usable skills.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

For maximum security-type nasty individuals...

I was thinking along the same lines. May not be an organised "culling", but as more and more guards desert after the nukes and food supplies dry up, the prisoners are more and more likely to remain locked in their cells 24 hours a day.
In some cases a few of the more soft hearted guards may try to keep the inmates alive, but sooner or later they're going to be faced with a decision - them or us.

In some places prisoners may find themselves chained together and used as slave labour. This seems most likely in NA controlled areas.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

Originally Posted by copeab

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

First I am assuming that by prison you are also including jails. Going on that assumption I do not think that Copeab is close depending on the time point. The later in the time line we are talking the more draconian it will be.

Overall I think most that are able in body and mind (this I think is the bigger issue those with serious metal illness) will be offered the choice of joining, but I do not see many (if any) being forced to join tell the draft is started, then they would be treated like draftees. For those who are unable/unwilling to joining the military I think most of them will be used for labor either as a labor battalion, or prison labor doing manual labor/menial tasks (making big rocks into little rocks, and the such). For the most most violent (and those who kill in prison) I could see them being executed, but more likely they would be killed in the act or when it gets bad enough that they decide to call it quits at the prison I would not be surprised to see those few still in prison to just be left locked in there cells.