Combat Rules

[headquarters]

I thought that I would start a thread discussing various issues or themes in the rules section . (If we dont have one already).To discuss things not covered in the rules or part of the rules that need discussion .

I want to start with a question :

has anyone used rules for backblast from RPGs in their game ?

What would be the DAMAGE STATS ( C:2 B:0 maybe ?)

[jester]

I have used this very thing several times. Since I have had characters do the following:

Fire a ARMBURST from within a room, and it fried the two other PCs and the firing PC didn't understand why he ended up suffering damage to a lesser degree.

A PC firing from inside a covered fighting position. He could of at least let the guy in his hole know. He didn't the bugger. So they all suffered less severe injuries.

Firing from inside the cabin of a wooden boat. Blew out the windows and left him smoldering and deaf, dazed and confused.

From inside a vehicle. Okay the vehicle had been hit multipe times and was on fire. And the other 2 PCs were gravely wounded, so this is the most understandable as they had little to loose. He did take out the BMP and only caused slightly more damage to himself and the other PCs.

What I do is have them loose initiative determined by the weapon fired and how confined the location. Firing from foxhole with overhead cover will blind you surely and make you deaf for a bit and scortch you depending on the sides so it will be minor other than letting everyone know you are there! Whereas firing from inside a closed concrete bunker with just 1 firing slit, your world will be rocked and the gase and flame have no where to go.

So, the PCs will loose their initiative as a result of the light and sound overload, much like a flashbang, suffering some concussion damage as well.

If they are in an enclosed room or inside a vehicle then they will suffer some burn damage too, this will all be relative to their position to the rear of the rocket, since most rocket backblasts are cone shaped, as for the actual damage, it all depends on the weapon and the confined space, but anywhere from mild burn to being hit with a HAFLA

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

Fire a ARMBURST from within a room, and it fried the two other PCs and the firing PC didn't understand why he ended up suffering damage to a lesser degree.

I wouldn't understand either, as it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

Unless all the descriptions I've read are wrong.

[headquarters]

Maybe the armbrust isnt the perfect example -maybe it isnt but that belongs in a technical thread.Say the backblast of an armbrust gives concussion damage -what stats ???
What about the rpg 7 ?

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that ?

I am most interested in ANYONE using this -and the flashbang effect I hadnt thought of ! Good one.Keep it coming -I guess my always well armed players should be disturbed by the question.or warned maybe.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by copeab

it's one of the few recoilless weapons that can be (relatively) safely fired from an enclosed space, ejecting plastic flakes.

On a similar note in the early '90s the IRA developed the PRIG (Projectile Recoiless Improvised Grenade) for use here in NI. It was essentially an improvised RPG that they used with reasonable success against the armoured land rovers that the RUC used here. They managed to largely eliminate the backblast by using a packet of digestive biscuits in a similar fashion to the counter shot flakes that the Armbrust uses. The main problem with the weapon was accuracy. Sadly on too many occasions they got lucky with them - a school friend of mine who had joined the police here lost an arm and an eye to a PRIG attack.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

the 84 mm carl gustav recoilles cannon that I have fired many times sure warrant C:2 B:0 imho.

what of the m72 -shot ot too.Wouldnt want my arm in front of the bacblast-stats on that ?

I can't remember the back blast danger ara on either of these two weapons off the top of my head, but...

From firing the "84" on the range, it was noted the corregations in the sand quite some distance away were changing from the noise alone!. This weapon is also absolutely spectacular when fired at night. The ball of flame issuing from the rear, especially when firing ILLUM rounds almost vertically is something to be seen - bit on the hot side around the legs too....

While at Canungra (one of Australia's two jungle warfare training facilities - the other being Tully and devoted to section (squad) skills), we were taught that the M72 in close terrain was next to useless due to insufficent range to arm the projectile. We were advised that turning it around and using the backblast could be quite effective up to a couple of dozen metres. Note this advice comes from combat veterans most who served in Vietnam and a few from as far back as Korea. The staff are amongst the toughest men I know, and would probably put most SF soliders to shame! (One officer was still going with three broken ribs and doing better than 90% of us fit and healthy types.)

[jester]

I got scortched once when selected to fire a LAW rocket, needless to say my trouser leg was chared after the firing. And the section leader of the 51s a freind of mine made note of that.

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right? Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space? I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ?

I have heard that many of the earlier men who used rockets would have to hold their breath because of the fumes from the propellant.

My senior DI a Gunny used to man one of those multi barreled recoiless rocket launchers and I have known a few old timerss who used them too. They said it was like sitting in the middle of an explosion when they would fire their weapon. So, that is something to also consider how much pause does a gunner have to take because the gases disapate and his eyes can focus and his hearing return and he can breathe again?

[copeab]

Originally Posted by jester

As for the armburst.

Yes it sends chips out the back that all cool and well, but it doesn't change physics. A round is launched downrange via combustion of some form of rocket right? Where does the heat, gas and flash and fire go in an enclosed space? I have never fired one, never seen one fire, but I do not buy the idea that plastic chips can eliminate all of that, reduce I can beleive but eliminate no. I mean burning gas is burning gas righ?

The Panzerfaust III also uses a countermass (one souce says powdered iron, another plastic flakes) and requies only 2 meters of clear space behind it. The AT-4 CS uses salt water as a countermass.

Some other rockets use a soft-launcher, where a small charge ejects the rocket from the tube, then a few meters later the main motor in the rocket kicks in. This greatly reduces backblast.

While it would certainly be unpleasant to be behind any of these weapons when fired, I'm sure it's a low more unlpeasant to be behind a LAW or RPG-7.

[headquarters]

I know the Swedes tested the 84 with 2 gunners with no hearing protection or helmets to see what kind of combat efficiency you get without.After some 60 rounds both loader and gunner were in effect temporarily deaf,had concussions and very disorientated.

I guess C:2 for direct contact with the blast stands to reason then .(being halved for every 8 meters out as pr core rules.)

I also think I will go to C:2 for the M72 based on the Aussie story and whatever little I have seen of it myself .

I would be happy to be corrected if anyone got anything .

As for the Soviet RPG-7 series ( the older versions are quite similar but with less caliber,different sights etc etc ) -I have a feel it gives a trashing backblast -but sadly never fired one .Anyone got any on this ?
Also of course the US "RPGs" like M82 SMAW or whatever it is called in real life ,the venerable "bazooka" -please try your hands on coming up with stats for me .

Next topic in the thread for those who are done with backblast follows shortly .(Anyone can start one though).

[headquarters]

The weapon remains the same ,but the available loads for it can vary a lot .

We used to have a lot of various ammo in our forces -black ring marked armour piercing .30-06 (7,62x63), tracers with red ring marks ,regular FMJs etc etc .

Same for the .308 we used later ( 7,62x51)

I guess this is also the case for other rifles and handguns out there.

Has anyone come up with stats for

-armour piercing rounds
-hollow points
-long range handloads/factory loads

please chime in with stats in regards to damage,penetration,range and recoil .

[copeab]

I thought GURPS had some specific backblast rules, but all I could find were generic ones for recoilless weapons in GURPS Vehicles.

In GURPS, weapons with a hot gas backblast have a lethat range of (bore in mm.10) yards and do 4d6 fire damage. In T2K terms, damge would probably be 4d10. For weapons that don't use hot gases, a divisor of 50 and damage of 1f6 (or perhaps 1d10) seems more appropriate, although GURPS only addresses hot gas backblast. I'd apply the damage to the firer if he didn't have sufficient room behind him, otherwise only to anyone unlucky enough to get in the way.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by headquarters

The weapon remains the same ,but the available loads for it can vary a lot .

We used to have a lot of various ammo in our forces -black ring marked armour piercing .30-06 (7,62x63), tracers with red ring marks ,regular FMJs etc etc .

Same for the .308 we used later ( 7,62x51)

I guess this is also the case for other rifles and handguns out there.

Has anyone come up with stats for

-armour piercing rounds
-hollow points
-long range handloads/factory loads

please chime in with stats in regards to damage,penetration,range and recoil .

I seem to remember seeing rules for AP ammo in a supplement somewhere where it stated that the damage was reduced by one dice but pen was doubled, but I may have dreamt it.

[Legbreaker]

The backblast danger area for the 84mm L14A1 SRAAW (Carl Gustav) is listed as "60 metres long x 800 mils (45 degrees) from the axis".
The M72 has a danger area of 40 metres with the same angle as the 84mm.

From http://www.nvbmb.nl/downloads/b-gl-314-008pt-001.pdf

18. Backblast Area. The M72E5. The propellant gases escape to the rear of the launcher and can cause severe injury to personnel and damage to equipment located within close proximity to the breech of the launcher (Figure 5-3). The danger zone extends 40 metres to the rear of the launcher and has a base of 1600 mils. All personnel, equipment and flammable materials must be clear of this area. The total backblast danger area is 175 metres deep and includes a burst danger area in which no personnel are allowed. During training, the 40 metre danger area should be marked off and kept clear of all personnel and equipment. Forward danger area templates for both stationary and moving targets are shown

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I seem to remember seeing rules for AP ammo in a supplement somewhere where it stated that the damage was reduced by one dice but pen was doubled, but I may have dreamt it.

Not quite....
This is from the referees screen (or more accurately the booklet that comes with it).

Enhanced Damage Rounds: These rounds include a broad class of small arms rounds specially-designed to trade off penetration for increased tissue damage, usually by causing the round to widen, flatten, and/or fragment. Special rounds include hollow-points, mercury loads, reversed wadcutters, dum-dums, and a number of proprietary designs too numerous to mention. Such rounds are not suitable for military use (as they violate a number of international accords and their inferior performance against body armour makes them less suitable for most military firefights).
Special rounds are available only at the referee's discretion, and only in calibres between .22LR and .45ACP. They weigh the same as normal rounds, and cost the same. Availability is up to the referee, but they cannot be more common than the round they are based upon.
Add 1 to Damage value of enhanced damage rounds, but add 2 to the penetration value. When the penetration number equals or exceeds the modified damage number, it becomes Nil. For example: A standard 7.62mmN rounds has damage of 4, and penetration of 2-3-Nil. With enhanced damage rounds, the damage becomes 5, and the penetration 4-Nil (2-3-Nil plus 2 becomes 4-5-Nil, but since 5 equals the damage, value, it becomes Nil). The round will do more damage, but is less effective against body armour.

[jester]

Backblast:

Tghe newer rounds with the stuff be it salt water or iron dust etc may reduce the damage for someone in the backblast, but it will still put them out of action for a few moments giving them what amounts to stun damage.



As for the whole armor piercing thing:

Remember, alot of the markings on special ammunition is common and standard throughout NATO. I actualy had it in my magic book of knowledge that all good NCOs carried. And it was designed not just with common lettering but also with specific colors <colours for you European peoples> so that even if you didn't understand the language you could tell what type of round it was by the colored markings.

As or special ammo for small arms. I would usualy give it some kind of benefit like with incidiary it would give a chance per round to catch something combustible alight. For ammo since most modern small arms rifle ammo is steel core 5.56 had no special rounds, or all of it was however you want to say it.

Hollowpoint, would have moderate penetration value but I'd toss an extra dice for wounds.

As for something like 7.62 I never really included it as the round itself was pretty powerful as it was, and from personal experience I have seen 8mm and 7.62X54 go through sizeable pieces of steel and most target a belt fed 7.62 or 8mm or 30-06 round hit well for the most part the round would penetrate easily or not at all. Think about it, hitting a light vehicle it would penetrate easily, on a tank or armored vehicle however, it would have little effect.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by TiggerCCW UK

I seem to remember seeing rules for AP ammo in a supplement somewhere where it stated that the damage was reduced by one dice but pen was doubled, but I may have dreamt it.

That's one hell of a dream Tigger

[headquarters]

I will go with C:2 = 2 dice damage to the locations turnes towards the blast I hues for the M72 and the carl Gustaf ( wich is a nasty package imho-for those who havent got it of course)

[headquarters]

The GM screen rules that were posted on damage enhanced rounds seem reasonable -anyone got any RL objections or other input ?

Plus 1 dice on the damage stat and plus 2 on the pen stat making penetration of anything alot less likely .

( Our book company owner and editor William Nygaard who was shot 3 times with a .44 mag by jihadists in Oslo was saved by his corduroy jacket stunting the effect of the hollowpoint bullets - say what you will of corduroy,but it is hell on those jihadist plots to undermine our democracy!)

As for ap - armour piercing - does it stand to reason that damage is lowered by on dice ,but that PEN stat is one better also AND that RANGE stat also increases by say 10 or 20% ?

Are there AP rounds out there say caliber .308 that would have normally
damage 4 pen 2-2-3 but AP stats will be DAM 4 PEN 1-1-2 ?

[Marc]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I will go with C:2 = 2 dice damage to the locations turnes towards the blast I hues for the M72 and the carl Gustaf ( wich is a nasty package imho-for those who havent got it of course)

I think it will works. And to keep things simple, the most important of the particular cases explained by Jester could be easily played following the v2 (or v2.2 rules). Double damage in an enclosed space and apply knockdown and stun effects as normal. I would add the blackblast effect to my house rules, too.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Marc

I think it will works. And to keep things simple, the most important of the particular cases explained by Jester could be easily played following the v2 (or v2.2 rules). Double damage in an enclosed space and apply knockdown and stun effects as normal. I would add the blackblast effect to my house rules, too.

on the indoor increase in damage .cant wait to see if any players forget this next FtF ..MUAHAHAHA

[headquarters]

The rules concerning use of sighting devices could bear a little discussion .

If a character uses laser sight - a little laser emitter that "paints" a red/green dor wherever its calibrated to aim -what would be the effects on the shoorting ?The rules seem calibrated for iron sights or long range scopes ,but there are implements to make shooting quicker and more accurate today .

the rules in the GAZETEER supplement say that you get 2 aimed shots instead of one in a phase where you have already aimed the previous phase .

But is this accurate ?

Shouldnt it rather be just a numerical bonus to the roll say +1 for aimed shots or quick shots ?Or maybe " 2 aimed shots if previous phase was used to aim and +1 to quick shots ?"

any other suggestions ?

What about optical devices such as Aimpoint,Eotech,Holosights,Trijicon red dot sights etc etc .What kind of bonus to the shooting do you see here ?

Please give some input .

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I will go with C:2 = 2 dice damage to the locations turnes towards the blast I hues for the M72 and the carl Gustaf ( wich is a nasty package imho-for those who havent got it of course)

Doesn't seem right to me. As posted previously, jungle warfare instructors in the Australian Army teach the use of backblast as an effective weapon in close terrain.

C:2 means what? You stand more than about an arms length or two away and effectively all that happens is your hair is messed up? The M72 danger area is 40 metres in distance!

Perhaps backblast whould be treated more like burn damage rather than concussion or fragments? Using the M72 as an example (and only a suggestion, open to adjustment), damage could be in the order of 4d6 if within five metres, 3d6 out to ten, 2d6 to 20 and 1d6 to 40 metres. Hard cover halves these ranges. If fired from an enclosed area, the firer is subject to backblast damage calculated as twice the distance to the wall/obstacle directly behind them to represent the blast bouncing back at them?

The ranges and damage seem a little high in the example above, but I wouldn't want to go less than half those figures.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Don't mean to dis anyone but the Armbrust has absolutely no backblast - it was made deliberately to be fired indoors. Uses two captive pistons, first to launch the round, second one shoves all the plastic flakes out the back. Explosion is caught inbetween and trapped.
There's some smoke but not enough to really stand out

[headquarters]

4D damage is the same as the 7,62 N round gets in game.I dont really see that thats the way either .The amount of damage in physical contact with explosion is the stated number C:2 means that it has twice the potency of a 9mm round if you are at an arms length,1D up until 8 m and half that again 8-16 meters.I think the army had a few lawsuits in mind when they set the backblast ranges-at 40 m a m72 might stun you or blow a pebble in youreye ,but it is not gonna be as dangerous as being hit by a pistol shot .

all imho

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Doesn't seem right to me. As posted previously, jungle warfare instructors in the Australian Army teach the use of backblast as an effective weapon in close terrain.

C:2 means what? You stand more than about an arms length or two away and effectively all that happens is your hair is messed up? The M72 danger area is 40 metres in distance!

Perhaps backblast whould be treated more like burn damage rather than concussion or fragments? Using the M72 as an example (and only a suggestion, open to adjustment), damage could be in the order of 4d6 if within five metres, 3d6 out to ten, 2d6 to 20 and 1d6 to 40 metres. Hard cover halves these ranges. If fired from an enclosed area, the firer is subject to backblast damage calculated as twice the distance to the wall/obstacle directly behind them to represent the blast bouncing back at them?

The ranges and damage seem a little high in the example above, but I wouldn't want to go less than half those figures.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

C:2 means what? You stand more than about an arms length or two away and effectively all that happens is your hair is messed up? The M72 danger area is 40 metres in distance!

Well, seems HQ has replied just a minute before me. But after the energy invested struggling against my English skill, I will post my answer anyway.

Here's my view: In v2.2 C:2 will mean 2d6 at 10m and 1d6 at 20m, distributied among all the body parts begining from head, with the possible option (in my opinion depending of the GM interpretation of the rules) to apply 2d6 additional points to one single body part if he character is just behind the weapon.

If quick quill rule is used (with the chance to double the damage to the playing character if chest or head is affected), a wide range of possibe effects is possible.

I agree that perhaps burn damage must be added. And I must recognize I do not know the M72 but if the 40m of safety distance is "according to manual" in the practicing fire-line, it's possible that they have taken "the worst case" as a an added precaution.

[headquarters]

using an optical device -not a laser- like aimpoint etc -could it stand to reason that it gives a +1 bonus to shots over the iron sights ?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by headquarters

Attachment 414

The rules concerning use of sighting devices could bear a little discussion .

If a character uses laser sight - a little laser emitter that "paints" a red/green dor wherever its calibrated to aim -what would be the effects on the shoorting ?The rules seem calibrated for iron sights or long range scopes ,but there are implements to make shooting quicker and more accurate today .

the rules in the GAZETEER supplement say that you get 2 aimed shots instead of one in a phase where you have already aimed the previous phase .

But is this accurate ?

Shouldnt it rather be just a numerical bonus to the roll say +1 for aimed shots or quick shots ?Or maybe " 2 aimed shots if previous phase was used to aim and +1 to quick shots ?"

any other suggestions ?

What about optical devices such as Aimpoint,Eotech,Holosights,Trijicon red dot sights etc etc .What kind of bonus to the shooting do you see here ?

Please give some input .

The Special Operations book for T2K 2nd ed. talks about taking three aimed shots when using a laser sight within 40 meters. I added that all three of the aimed shots must target the same hit location if the player wanted to declare a Targeted Shot (i.e. name the hit location).

I found this rule to be a little over-powered at times. Stealthy operators with silenced laser scoped SMG's can drop alot of bad guys, leaving the rest of the gaming group standing around doing nothing but getting bored.

I like the idea of a bonus per shot like +2, with a max of three shots aimed, but all shots must be Targeted Shots. The bonus for aiming would be cancelled by the penalty for calling tageted shots, but every shot would target the same hit location.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I think the army had a few lawsuits in mind when they set the backblast ranges-at 40 m

Perhaps, but 175m is the listed safe distance for the M72 on the range from a US source I found http://www.nvbmb.nl/downloads/b-gl-314-008pt-001.pdf
Attachment 420

This is from the US LAW manual. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...23-25/appa.htm

Backblast. Light antiarmor weapons have little or no recoil, because the propellant gasses escape to the rear of the weapon. This backblast can damage equipment or seriously injure personnel who are too close to the rear of the launcher. When operating temperatures fall below freezing (0NC or 32NF), all backblast areas and safety zones double.

(1) M72-series LAW. This is an open-chambered weapon, so it has no recoil. The launcher's total backblast area extends 40 meters (44 yards) to the rear (Figure A-1) and is divided into two zones. During training, both should be marked off limits:

(a) Danger zone. All personnel, equipment, and flammable material must be clear of this area.

(b) Caution zone. The weapon's backblast may throw loose objects to the rear. Therefore, personnel must also stay clear of this area.

I think it's fair to say from reading those sources it's likely to be more than the odd pebble in the 40m zone...

[kato13]

Just did the math for the cone.

Assuming that the energy is transferred uniformly, if the damage is considered to be 100 (just to make the math easier) at 10 meters
it will be the following at other distances

5m 400
20m 25
30m 11.1108
40m 06.25

You really get cooked in the first zone but mathematically it will disperse quickly due to the power of squares. The damage at distance should probably be reduced a bit further as the wave would lose energy over distance and my calculations are based only on the area of the base of the cone.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by headquarters

using an optical device -not a laser- like aimpoint etc -could it stand to reason that it gives a +1 bonus to shots over the iron sights ?

This would be a useful thread...

Mmmmm...I think it would be better, to reflect the quick target acquisition, to allow the characters to performe an aimed (but non located) shot against a target without spending one combat action in the process. You can ask the player for a previous Small Arms (rifle) check to allow them to do it (as a way to prevent characters with a low-skill to take full advantage from the toy). If he/she succeds, the aimed shot is allowed. If not he/she must spend a combat action, as usual, to gain the aiming advantage.

If the player wish to make an aimed and located shot, resolve the process as normal, spending one combat action aiming.

If convined with a laser sight (accordingly with the rule of the "Special Forces" sourcebook), a character equiped with a red-dot sight could shot an aimed shot without spending a combat action (if he/se suceeds in the Small Arms (Rifle) check), and fire two more shots as aimed against the same target at less than 40m. Too much lethal? Perhaps...but a stationary human-sized target at 40m is a very easy target. In combat, you must still apply any modification for target/shooter movement and roll for location.