The other entities in the MilGov and CivGov split

[Southernap]

Okay so we know the MilGov and the CivGov split due the war. That we saw most of the regular military units go to MilGov with the DIA. The CivGov gets most of the reserve and left over National Guard units and the CIA.

I know that this is very over simplification, but bear with me please?

So within the US Federal government there are a slew of other entities that are going to have to make decisions on who is where with the split.

• US Department of State - The diplomats. I would foresee these folks staying with MilGov in most places since Milgov has better comms. They have an intelligence arm and a law enforcement arm
• US Department of Treasury - The folks behind the money. Obviously these folks would be split, in my mind. With some folks going to the Milgov since that is where the leadership is and others going to the CivGov because they want to believe that CivGov is right and there needs to be civilian leadership They also have an intelligence arm, The US Secret Service and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (at least in TW2K world since 9/11 doesn't happen which re-organizes the US law enforcement branches)
• US Department of Justice - So would these folks have split or would they have sided with CivGov since they view their role that way? So under the DoJ is the FBI, US Marshal Service, Bureau of Prisons, and the DEA. Of which both the DEA and FBI run their own intelligence agencies within their organizations.
• US Department of Interior - Okay so these folks would have been going to CivGov for sure since they would be the ones with the records about oil, minerals, and even mapping of various lands and waterways. The only law enforcement is the National Parks Service. The Fish and Wildlife Services is another law enforcement angle. The DoI is also responsible for tribal law enforcement officers and also are responsible for emergency management of major infrastructure and has a minor intelligence agency folded under this branch..
• US Department of Agriculture. These are the folks that manage the National Forests and the farming and food production. I can see these folks also split between MilGov and CivGov. Since the last orders were prior to MilGov assuming command was movement of people to farming lands and creation of food for human consumption. They have law enforcement branches within the US Forestry Service.
• US Department of Commerce - These are the folks that own the Census, Trademarks, NOAA, and telecommunications. I think these folks would have gone to CivGov, since most of these folks are civil servants and would be more use to thinking of civilian leadership than what MilGov is offering. The Department of Commerce also regulates the air waves, so having them under CivGov would give those folks an air of legitimacy. They have a combo intelligence and law enforcement division.
• US Department of Labor - the folks responsible for jobs programs and measurements of unemployment, unemployment insurance. Would this agency have really survived the Twilight War as is? Or would its surviving members been folded into some other agency since its purpose is effectively eliminated? They have no enforcement branch beyond lawyers and inspectors for law and rule violations of things like worker safety or ineffective pay.
• US Department of Health and Human services - These folks own the Centers for Disease Control and management of various public health initiatives and the majority of the US Public Health Service. I can see these folks dissolved and locals reporting to whomever is in charge in each region.
• US Department of Housing and Urban Development - These are the folks who management federal housing programs, help to develop cities with mixed homes and businesses. I don't think there is anything in this organization left after the war and they would be folded into someone else to provide manpower and reporting of their information of available homes.
• US Department of Transportation - These folks are responsible for cars, planes, trains, ships, oil pipelines. Yes, oil pipelines falls under the US Department of Transportation. So I could see branches like the FAA, Federal Transit Admin, Federal Railway Admin, US MARAD working again with whomever is the strongest in each region of the Mil/Civ Government split providing whatever resources they own or can manage or have data on. Before the war the US Department of Transportation would have owned the US Coast Guard, with the US Coast Guard reverting to the US Navy upon some signing of an executive order or such. So, they would have also managed the US Coast Guard Auxiliary.
• US Department of Energy - These are the folks that own anything that produces energy. Whether its oil, coal, nuclear, solar, geothermal, or hydroelectric. They have an intelligence division and are responsible for security of various nuclear power plants, nuclear production sites and nuclear hazmat sites. These folks, in my mind, would be split again to whomever is the strongest in each region. Since each region would be trying to get power up and running and civilization back again as soon as possible.
• US Department of Education - These folks manage federal loans for education. Enforce laws about education rights, privacy, and access. They have a law enforcement branch. I fully see these folks folded away with the war aftermath and used for other things in whatever surviving government exists.
• US Department of Veterans Affairs - These folks administer the Veterans Hospitals, loan programs for education and small businesses for veterans, burial benefits and basically any other program to re-integrate the discharged veteran back into civilian life. I can see these folks using their various hospitals, that are still standing, as major sources of power for each region. I can also see these folks sticking with the MilGov since most of the patients and doctors and admin staff would have been former military.

So that all said, just some ideas to me how each department of the US Government would have fared post-war. As well as some of them would have had some law enforcement or para-military arm as well as an intelligence agency or two working for them. This could give additional fodder for events, NPCs, or even missions.

Does anyone have an opinion one way or another about how these other agencies would have fallen to the MilGov or CilGov split that differs than mine?

Anyone surprised to find out that some of these agencies have law enforcement, para-military, or even intelligence divisions?

[CDAT]

Just a minor point first every federal agency has a law enforcement branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa..._United_States).

But main thing is the department of Energy does not control everything that makes energy, I know this as a former worker at Grand Coulee Dam (the largest power plant in the US) it is owned by the bureau of reclamation, department of the Interior. They have Dam Police, armed security, and unarmed security, are a veterans preference job (have to by law hire a qualified veteran if available before they can even look at a non-vet). At least at Grand Coulee when I was there most likely that dam would have sided with the military.

[Southernap]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Just a minor point first every federal agency has a law enforcement branch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa..._United_States).

But main thing is the department of Energy does not control everything that makes energy, I know this as a former worker at Grand Coulee Dam (the largest power plant in the US) it is owned by the bureau of reclamation, department of the Interior.

I knew that now in the real life most of the Federal Agencies have a law enforcement branch. I just was having a hard time parse whether they existed prior to 2001 reforms or afterwards. It seemed like nearly everyone after 2001 bought themselves a police force in the federal agencies all over the fear of terrorism.

Also, thanks for the information about the DoE and hydroelectrics productions. I knew they owned most, but as you noted there is an exception to the rule.

Still provides an interesting bit of potential jobs, patrons, or even NPCs for the characters to interact with beyond the usual CIA/DIA or MilGov/CivGov points that most of the officially published modules had going on.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Southernap

I knew that now in the real life most of the Federal Agencies have a law enforcement branch. I just was having a hard time parse whether they existed prior to 2001 reforms or afterwards. It seemed like nearly everyone after 2001 bought themselves a police force in the federal agencies all over the fear of terrorism.

Also, thanks for the information about the DoE and hydroelectrics productions. I knew they owned most, but as you noted there is an exception to the rule.

Still provides an interesting bit of potential jobs, patrons, or even NPCs for the characters to interact with beyond the usual CIA/DIA or MilGov/CivGov points that most of the officially published modules had going on.

As far as I know most of the Federal Agencies are from before (the names may be different but most of the agencies were around before). For example the agency that I retired from FRB Police was around well before 2001, but under a different name, and charter was a bit different but not enough to make a real difference in game play I think. Also just did some looking into to it, and as near as I can tell the DOE does not (and I do not think ever did) owns a single dam. From what I can tell most are owned by either Bureau of Reclamation and Army Corps of Engineers if federal, but many (maybe even more than 50% not sure) are private or lessor government (state/counties and even some by cities).

[Olefin]

An example of a federal law enforcement officer you could encounter would be the Hoover Dam Police Department. It had 21 officers that guard the Hoover Dam and adjacent Lake Meade. They were armed with typical police weapons - semi-automatic handguns and Remington Model 870 shotguns. They don't have a SWAT team.

FYI just to give you an idea of how much ammo even a small federal agency might have, the Hoover Dam Police Department is the group that made headlines in 2015 when they ordered 41,600 rounds of 9mm hollow-point ammunition along with 10,400 rounds of shotgun ammunition for just 21 officers.

[Olefin]

This is from 2008 but it gives a good overview of Federal Law Enforcement officers for basically just about every agency including ones you would never think had Federal Law Enforcement officers as part of their organization. For instance, the National Institute of Standards & Technology had 28 armed officers as part of its organization.

Also keep in mind that some of these agencies would have taken a major hit during the TDM - i.e. the Secret Service between the President's plane going down and the White House getting nuked - basically what would be left would be the agents who were in field offices or who were off duty and far enough away to survive the DC nukes

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fleo08.pdf

[Raellus]

A lot of federal agencies have tactical (i.e. SWAT) teams nowadays (e.g. NASA, Amtrack). I'm not sure if any of these would have existed in the v1 or 2 timelines, but here you go:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...tactical-teams

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[Desert Mariner]

I tend to look at this from a different perspective. When MilGov and CivGov split I don’t see entire pieces of old government (or military units) choosing sides. I believe it would be much like the US Civil War where individuals determined where their allegiances lay and acted accordingly. So, it’s completely piecemeal.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Desert Mariner

I tend to look at this from a different perspective. When MilGov and CivGov split I don’t see entire pieces of old government (or military units) choosing sides. I believe it would be much like the US Civil War where individuals determined where their allegiances lay and acted accordingly. So, it’s completely piecemeal.

I think that's a valid point but, at the risk of getting pedantic, during the Civil War, entire regions aligned themselves with one side or the other. Yeah, maybe a couple of South Carolinians joined up with Union forces, and a couple of Pennsylvanians aligned with the Confederacy, but, by and large, the allegiances of citizens lay with their state governments' respective decisions re secession. Although there certainly were multiple examples of families and/or neighbors split by the war, the romanticized brother v. brother dynamic is a little over-played (for dramatic effect).

In the T2k scenario, if a particular organization was predisposed to one side or the other in the Mil-Civ split, I imagine most (but not all) member personnel would go along with the agency. There would be outliers, though, who decide to follow their conscience instead of their leaders/organization.

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[Olefin]

I can see whats left of the Secret Service being with CivGov - their main function is to protect the President and Vice President and the US government - and MilGov has their own security forces. Thus by default you could see what is left of their people (probably almost all from the surviving field offices with what happened to DC) joining up with CivGov if they could to try to give the new government some kind of protective force.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think that's a valid point but, at the risk of getting pedantic, during the Civil War, entire regions aligned themselves with one side or the other. Yeah, maybe a couple of South Carolinians joined up with Union forces, and a couple of Pennsylvanians aligned with the Confederacy, but, by and large, the allegiances of citizens lay with their state governments' respective decisions re secession. The brother v. brother dynamic is a little over-played (for dramatic effect).

In the T2k scenario, if a particular organization was predisposed to one side or the other in the Mil-Civ split, I imagine most (not all) member personnel would go along with the agency. There would be outliers, though, who decide to follow their conscience instead of their leaders/organization.

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I agree with you there Raellus since its not really state versus state here - and you may see organizations that are neutral - possibly the US Post Office for instance who would most likely do their best to keep the mail being delivered to as much of the country as possible, regardless of who is in control (although not sure New America would be up for having them come into their territory)

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I think that's a valid point but, at the risk of getting pedantic, during the Civil War, entire regions aligned themselves with one side or the other. Yeah, maybe a couple of South Carolinians joined up with Union forces, and a couple of Pennsylvanians aligned with the Confederacy, but, by and large, the allegiances of citizens lay with their state governments' respective decisions re secession.

Doesn't that make an argument that many personnel may declare allegiance to the Government that is in charge in their local area, from expediency if for no other reason? I mean, if you're in a (insert Federal Agency of choice) Field Office that's many miles inside MilGov territory declaring loyalty for MilGov would probably be a prudent choice for many.

Sure, there will be exceptions, the loyalists that are prepared to put conviction over expediency, the ones that say 'nope, we're not siding with traitors, we're going to make for the other side's territory'. But I could see them being the outliers. Dependent on the distances and risks involved, I'm not sure many people are going to make that decision.

It's not something that I'd ever thought about before (and hadn't really until Desert Mariner made his post about it being piecemeal), I'm just thinking that it could be piecemeal but based on geography rather than conviction on the individual level (I don't doubt that in the bigger picture, the titular Agency heads are likely to declare their Agency's loyalty to one of the two Governments, but my point is how many Federal Agents based in Colorado Springs are going to say 'hey, we're with Civgov!' and potentially get themselves thrown in jail. Or for balance how many Federal Agents in Omaha are going to openly declare for MilGov?).

Just a thought.

[Olefin]

The other question is would something similar to the fusion of the CIA and DIA in the Middle East occur between CivGov and MilGov in areas that are under enemy occupation - and I dont mean by each other. I mean places like Texas, southern CA, AZ, NM and parts of Alaska - and also where New America is.

Thus you may get a situation where one Federal agency goes with MilGov and another with CivGov - but where they need to cooperate against say the Soviets or New America then they are "allies of convenience"

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Doesn't that make an argument that many personnel may declare allegiance to the Government that is in charge in their local area, from expediency if for no other reason? I mean, if you're in a (insert Federal Agency of choice) Field Office that's many miles inside MilGov territory declaring loyalty for MilGov would probably be a prudent choice for many.

Absolutely. I can totally see a local/regional branch of a particular federal agency siding with the predominant regional faction, even if the parent federal agency aligns with the other. I also think these "outlier" groups would be in greater danger of fracturing the way Desert Mariner described.

Originally Posted by Olefin

he other question is would something similar to the fusion of the CIA and DIA in the Middle East occur between CivGov and MilGov in areas that are under enemy occupation - and I dont mean by each other. I mean places like Texas, southern CA, AZ, NM and parts of Alaska - and also where New America is.

Thus you may get a situation where one Federal agency goes with MilGov and another with CivGov - but where they need to cooperate against say the Soviets or New America then they are "allies of convenience"

Definitely.

To sum up today's discussion, I don't think there's any set answer. I think which direction a particular field office/branch goes depends on the alignment of the parent fed'l agency, the predominant local/regional faction, and whether or not there's a common enemy in the area.

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[Tegyrius]

This is partly driven by my own professional interest, but one set of agencies I see missing in this inventory is the Federal Emergency Management Agency and its state/territorial counterparts. FEMA would have owned the national civil defense mission and a large chunk of continuity of government measures, and it and the state agencies would have tried to coordinate relief for the cities that came under nuclear attack.

Because of the COG mission, I see the survivors of FEMA HQ and Region 3 being an integral part of the federal government's efforts to reconstitute itself, and likely holding key roles in the Broward administration. The other regional offices likely would have aligned with HQ/R3 as long as they were able to maintain independent comms, and as long as they themselves continued functioning.

Emergency management has always been an attractive second career for retired military personnel and first responders, and the state agencies are tied closely to their respective National Guard contingents (several share a chain of command through state TAG offices). By 2000-2001, the states with functioning governments probably would have consolidated National Guard, state police/patrol, state EMA, and state public health into some sort of joint task forces to maintain infrastructure and halt the downward slide.

- C.

[Southernap]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

This is partly driven by my own professional interest, but one set of agencies I see missing in this inventory is the Federal Emergency Management Agency and its state/territorial counterparts. FEMA would have owned the national civil defense mission and a large chunk of continuity of government measures, and it and the state agencies would have tried to coordinate relief for the cities that came under nuclear attack.

- C.

I wasn't really looking at FEMA since I was thinking more along the lines of where all the executive departments would have filtered. In addition doing some reading on something else related to the intelligence agencies of the US, just how many branches of the Executive Department had their own intelligence bureaus/branches.

I was just thinking of how many of them would still be trying to do work some where or some how. Add in the number that had law enforcement branches. I just thought of how many could be regional power or even be places where they are either marauders or some major power in a region (even if they are the power in charge in some city).

I know there are some other agencies that don't have executive branch representation in the Cabinet but are part of the government and would be important. It would be fun to try and parse some of those out in another thread.

Originally Posted by Raellus

To sum up today's discussion, I don't think there's any set answer. I think which direction a particular field office/branch goes depends on the alignment of the parent fed'l agency, the predominant local/regional faction, and whether or not there's a common enemy in the area.

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I wasn't sure if was a good answer one way or another. Just trying to come up with something to help me think about what the rest of the government is doing when the split happens.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Southernap

I wasn't really looking at FEMA since I was thinking more along the lines of where all the executive departments would have filtered. In addition doing some reading on something else related to the intelligence agencies of the US, just how many branches of the Executive Department had their own intelligence bureaus/branches.

I was just thinking of how many of them would still be trying to do work some where or some how. Add in the number that had law enforcement branches. I just thought of how many could be regional power or even be places where they are either marauders or some major power in a region (even if they are the power in charge in some city).

I know there are some other agencies that don't have executive branch representation in the Cabinet but are part of the government and would be important. It would be fun to try and parse some of those out in another thread.


I wasn't sure if was a good answer one way or another. Just trying to come up with something to help me think about what the rest of the government is doing when the split happens.

FEMA is in the list I posted but since Tegyrius has me blocked he couldn’t see the link that I posted. They are a large agency but only have 84 total uniformed armed enforcement officers (at least they did in 2008) - one of the smallest contingents for such a large agency. But that doesnt take away from their ability to coordinate aid on a large scale even if their enforcement/armed contingent is small.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Raellus

A lot of federal agencies have tactical (i.e. SWAT) teams nowadays (e.g. NASA, Amtrack). I'm not sure if any of these would have existed in the v1 or 2 timelines

to quote Audit of Federal Tactical Teams Report

"The earliest that any responding agencies reported establishing their tactical teams was 1971 (the USMS Special Operations Group and the Secret Service Counter Sniper Branch). The majority of tactical teams (232 of the 271) were established prior to 1990 (see Table B-5). It was reported that the 39 remaining tactical teams were founded in 1996 or later; two-thirds of these were DHS tactical teams. The most recently established tactical teams are all a part of DHS.42ICE established 11 of its 17 Homeland Security Investigation SRTs and all 8of its Enforcement and Removal Operations SRTs between 2005 and 2013. CBP established its Office of Field Operations SRT in 2007.

https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-20-710