4e Canon map

[Heffe]

Hey all,

I spent an hour earlier today mapping out the unit locations from the 4e Ref Manual. Check it out, and please let me know if you have any feedback.

Edit: Edited out the map in favor of the more complete ones below.

[Heffe]

Hi everyone,

So I didn't realize it at the time, but the 4e handouts actually have additional units mentioned in Poland that don't get mentioned in the Referee Manual. This has led to a few discoveries, but first and foremost it allowed me to map out 4e's Operation Reset from the start to 7 days later, when the players find themselves on their own.

Map of 4e Starting Points for Operation Reset:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...Fj&usp=sharing

You can see pretty clearly where the front lines are in 4e based on that info. You'll note a number of BLUFOR corps in northern Poland now that weren't there previously. We don't know what became of them ultimately (the Brits and Belgians aren't mentioned in the Ref Manual), but we know that as a part of Operation Reset, they likely pushed eastward just as the other units did. If I had to hazard a guess, their primary goals would have been to unseat the Soviet 2nd Army in Gdansk and secure crossings over the Vistula.

Map of 4e Starting Points for Operation Reset +7 days:
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...ua&usp=sharing

And here we see where things fell apart. There were a number of additional divisions that the BLUFOR nations simply didn't know about at the outset of the operation. You can see that American units such as 1st Cav and 2nd Armored divisions, not being able to rely on 5th Mech ID to cover their northern flank, are now woefully cut off behind enemy lines and are in danger of being encircled and destroyed.

Other interesting takeaways include:

• The 4e materials only mention that these are the units that took place in Operation Reset. It's entirely possible that other units exist in Poland and weren't added only because they weren't a part of Operation Reset.
  
• All Soviet units in Poland appeared to have been pulled from the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (GSFG). FL seems to have been fairly thorough in that regard at least. All of the armies from GSFG are in Poland, and none are left out.
  
• Based on the GSFG information, it's safe to assume that FL's writing on the 3rd Shock Army is actually a reference to the 3rd CAA, that FL's 20th Guards Tank Army is actually the 20th GCAA, and that FL's 20th Tank Division is actually the 20th Guards Motor Rifle Division. Otherwise their orbat information is pretty damned accurate.

This does still leave a whole lot of questions regarding other Soviet forces in theater. We know that at least some elements of the 11th GCAA and the 6th GCAA, as well as the 76th Airborne, all end up in Sweden. But what happened to the rest of those armies? And what of the numerous Soviet armies in Ukraine and Belarus? We know that a number of nations in eastern Europe are NATO in this timeline, so presumably most of those armies attacked into Romania/the Balkans, and others likely pushed up through the Czech Republic and Austria into Southern Germany, but hopefully FL will release more information on them as time goes on.

[Raellus]

Really good work, Heffe. You've clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this particular aspect of 4e. It seems to me that the paid writers did not, and I wonder why. Isn't it ironic that there's so much more unit detail in v1, created a decade pre-internet? The v1 writers might have made some mistakes, and odd decisions, but they certainly put in the work.

Anyway, it's interesting to see the similarities and differences between how v1 and 4e handle the Summer 2000 Offensive. Unlike with v1, for which, AFAIK, the strategic objective(s) of the Summer 2000 offensive is never categorically stated (and the hints in canon are few and vague), Free League has stated, multiple times, that the purpose of what they call Operation RESET will, at some point in the not-so-distant future, be revealed.

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Really good work, Heffe. You've clearly put a lot of thought and effort into this particular aspect of 4e. It seems to me that the paid writers did not, and I wonder why. Isn't it ironic that there's so much more unit detail in v1, created a decade pre-internet? The v1 writers might have made some mistakes, and odd decisions, but they certainly put in the work.

Anyway, it's interesting to see the similarities and differences between how v1 and 4e handle the Summer 2000 Offensive. Unlike with v1, for which, AFAIK, the strategic objective(s) of the Summer 2000 offensive is never categorically stated (and the hints in canon are few and vague), Free League has stated, multiple times, that the purpose of what they call Operation RESET will, at some point in the not-so-distant future, be revealed.

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Thanks, Rae. It's interesting, no doubt. I've been neck deep in Soviet OrBats for a bit now, and I don't know if I'd agree that FL put little thought into unit detail. Not at all, really. The information about Soviet units that I've been able to find is fairly spread out and disjointed, even now, 30 years later; for the most part, the unit information that FL has been running off of has been fairly consistent in its approach, and outside of the differences in a few unit names that I called out above, everything else seems to line up surprisingly well. To me at least, that suggests a level of rigor that I wouldn't have initially expected.

Regarding FL deciding to use the GSFG as the units in Poland, I can't say I disagree with the decision, as they would likely have been some of the units closest to the front, as well as being the units with the most experience in that environment. I suppose an argument could be made regarding units in Belarus, but perhaps those units simply were held back in reserve or were committed early in the war against the French. Even the units in Ukraine can easily be explained away by the 4e canon material regarding the late war push into southern Germany, and there's such a glut of NATO forces in the Balkans that I'm not too worried about those units and how things shake out in that part of Europe. My biggest questions are going to be about what happened to the units up near St. Petersburg - did they get bogged down in Finland? And also the rest of the NATO units in Europe such as the other German divisions, French divisions, etc. Canon mentions the French getting mauled early on, but reason would have it that the Soviets would have been hit pretty hard by the French during those initial engagements as well, which doesn't seem to be born out with the Soviet units still remaining in Poland in the Ref manual. There could be all kinds of reasons for that, so speculating on it too much probably isn't worth my while. Plus, any actual potential issues there could be resolved later on without too much trouble.

One thing that has stood out to me from this process of reverse-engineering the 4e canon material - whomever FL has guiding their unit decisions (their "military advisor"), that person is absolutely working from specific orbats, and they clearly have a definitive vision for how the European conflict should look. Unit designations and unit placements are considered and thought out as though there's a serious process in place. And while v1 and v2 did a surprisingly good job with PACT/Soviet units for their time, I actually think 4e has a more accurate list of actual Soviet units, mostly just due to having so much more real world data to work from. To be perfectly honest, it almost feels as though FL's advisor has a deep trove of information that they're pulling from and using to determine unit movement/placement, and for whatever reason all of that data just didn't make it into the actual release. Maybe it was an intentional decision by FL to keep things from getting too gritty for their players? In any case, I expect that the information is all there at FL to provide a higher level of granularity - it's just a question of whether they'll ever actually release it or not.

As for the summer offensives, I'm super curious to see how FL ends up handling this "Operation Reset" business. It's clear from my research that the Soviets have a fairly large bulge of forces pushing into a southern Germany from the Czech Republic and Austria (supported by canon info of Soviet unit locations, as well as the sheer mass of units they would have had available to commit to that line of advance), and that the axis of the front line takes on a more horizontal approach just south of Poland. Where the 5th Mech ID in the old versions is operating pretty far behind enemy lines and ends up encircled and cut off, in 4e the 5th Mech ID is just one part of a larger push eastward by numerous BLUFOR units. Most American units in 4e seem just as screwed as the 5th, though the Germans and Brits seem to be in a much better position.

[Raellus]

Perhaps I went off half-cocked. I sometimes make the mistake of forgetting that not all v1 material came out in one big batch. I didn't mean to be unfair.

Just comparing the 4e and v1 box sets, the level of detail re unit designations, compositions, and locations are comparable.

Honestly, I've only skimmed the info re US and Soviet Forces in Poland from 4e. I'd planned to start a campaign in Sweden, so I gave that area a lot more attention*. Honestly, many of those Sweden-based units (designations, locations, strengths, dispositions, etc.) didn't make a whole lot of sense, as written. That was probably coloring my thoughts when I wrote msg #3.

I'd need to look up when the v1 US and Soviet Vehicle guides came out, because those two books established unit info/location for pretty much the whole world.


*Here's the initial fruits of that effort:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ghlight=escape

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Perhaps I went off half-cocked. I sometimes make the mistake of forgetting that not all v1 material came out in one big batch. I didn't mean to be unfair.

Just comparing the 4e and v1 box sets, the level of detail re unit designations, compositions, and locations are comparable.

I'd need to look up when the US and Soviet Vehicle guides came out, because those two books established unit info/location for pretty much the whole world.

AFAIK, WTO and NATO force dispositions in Central Europe weren't fully established until Going Home.

Honestly, I've only skimmed the info re US and Soviet Forces in Poland from 4e. I'd planned to start a campaign in Sweden, so I gave that area a lot more attention*. Honestly, a lot of those Sweden-based units (designations, locations, strengths, dispositions, etc.) didn't make a whole lot of sense, as written. That was probably coloring my thoughts when I wrote msg #3.


*Here's the initial fruits of that effort:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....ghlight=escape

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No that's totally fair. It's also entirely possible that what I see as being fairly rigorous on FL's part, you might view as being entirely lackluster.

I haven't dug too heavily/deeply into Sweden's units yet, at least not on the American/Swedish sides. On the Soviet side, things certainly seem possible at least, but Sweden was absolutely not fleshed out as well in the 4e canon when compared to Poland. If it's helpful, here's my documentation regarding the Soviets, at least at the army/division level for 4e. I also have a tab showing v1 and v2 for comparison.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...f=true&sd=true

[Heffe]

Just read over your Sweden supplement info. Good job on it!

I get the distinct impression that FL took an approach where they tried to assess where larger units were, and then worked their way down. The approach ended up with, rather than static frontlines, a situation where the front lines essentially ceased to exist in either Poland or Sweden. American units deep behind Soviet lines, and vice versa.

If anything, the Polish situation might actually be a little worse here, as Operation Reset in Poland represents an enormous intelligence failure. There are entire soviet divisions that weren't accounted for at the outset, that BLUFOR units just seemingly stumble into once the operation kicks off in earnest. This ends up leading to units like 2nd Armor being way behind the Soviet lines. As I said above, American forces are almost entirely out of position in 4e, where in the older versions its largely only the 5th.

[Raellus]

Thanks!

That aspect of v1- the one division raid deep into Pact-controlled territory- has always struck me as odd. There are hints that it was part of a larger offensive*- IIRC, US XI Corps, at the least, is mentioned somewhere in canon (but I can't recall where) as having participated as well. However, NATO unit strengths and location given before and after said offensive are largely unchanged (in most cases, there is no change whatever), suggesting either a lack of movement, combat, or a major oversight on the part of the writers. It's clear that something is off, but what exactly is anything but. This confusion within v1 canon is even more odd given that 5th ID's ordeal is the starting point for Twilight 2000!

In that regard- having multiple NATO divisions as active participants in the Summer, 2000 "RESET"- 4e definitely gets it right.


*IIRC, 8th ID's even odder "thunder run" all the way into Latvia is also part of the Summer, 2000 offensive.

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[Heffe]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Thanks!

That aspect of v1- the one division raid deep into Pact-controlled territory- has always struck me as odd. There are hints that it was part of a larger offensive*- IIRC, US XI Corps, at the least, is mentioned somewhere in canon (but I can't recall where) as having participated as well. However, NATO unit strengths and location given before and after said offensive are largely unchanged (in most cases, there is no change whatever), suggesting either a lack of movement, combat, or a major oversight on the part of the writers. It's clear that something is off, but what exactly is anything but. This confusion within v1 canon is even more odd given that 5th ID's ordeal is the starting point for Twilight 2000!

In that regard- having multiple NATO divisions as active participants in the Summer, 2000 "RESET"- 4e definitely gets it right.


*IIRC, 8th ID's even odder "thunder run" all the way into Latvia is also part of the Summer, 2000 offensive.

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Oh completely. I've studied your summer and winter maps pretty extensively and found the same thing. Which in some ways makes sense in the original timelines, given how units were all largely pushed into cantonment. But then in other ways, it doesn't make a lot of sense given how far specific units moved.

With 4e, while there was some movement in Poland and Sweden, there were also some forces that didn't move at all. The Soviet 131st MRD in Sweden for instance, doesn't end up changing positions at all. But then you have the 1st GMRD that makes it quite far. Or the 3rd Spetznaz Brigade in Poland - that unit pushes hard toward BLUFOR, where supposedly the 12th GTD doesn't move at all.

In My Twilight Universe, the 8th ID heading to Latvia is not so much a navigation era, but more akin to the Division Commander being convinced/cajoled/co-opted by the Intelligence Community (CIA/DIA, as you like), to make a B-line to secure a Top Secret Soviet installation. There were actually a few there, so take your pick. This one is interesting.

https://www.kathmanduandbeyond.com/a...irbene-latvia/