Military Shotguns

[Raellus]

What were the standard military shotguns for the various NATO armies in the mid to late '90s?

I've seen U.S. army troops using both Mossbergs and Remingtons (various models) so it just kind of seems like the army, at least, buys a little of this and a little of that (or perhaps soldiers and/or individual units purchase their own) and perhaps there is no standard make/model.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What were the standard military shotguns for the various NATO armies in the mid to late '90s?

USAF security troops used SPAS 12s didn't they?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

USAF security troops used SPAS 12s didn't they?

Only in the original T2K v1 timeline. Not IRL.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Only in the original T2K v1 timeline. Not IRL.

Ah. I see.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

Ah. I see.

It's in the RDF Sourcebook -- which makes sense in T2K, since the Saudis do use them IRL.

[Fusilier]

Canada - Remington 870

[jester]

The standard shotguns in the United States inventory were primarily the following:

Remington 870
Mossberg 590
Mossberg 500


Winchester Model 13 <I think, and those were fairly rare>

One could also encounter the following from OLDER STOCKS:

Ithaica Model 37 and maybe model 87s These were from Vietnam Stocks

Winchester Model 1897 <from WWII and earlier stocks>

When we did a fam fire of shotguns for guard mounts we would have usualy a mix of Remingtons, Mossbergs and Winchesters all plain Jane models with no extended tubes, no slings, no side saddle shell holders, some woult have a ramp sight, others would have a regular bead sight.

But those were the big three of the day.

And basicaly at that time, there would be a couple per company, you would find them for specific guard type assignments, in the armory, in special areas with sensistive mateiral and restricted access, our Paymaster Gunner who handled pay had a couple when they delivered us cash prior to the assault in split pay.

You would probabably find no more than four per company with more in the BN HQ and Regimental HQ but still not many, a guess as I never got a count when I was in the armory.

Company lets say about four, I know we had two or three for sure.

Bn, 2 for the armory guards, 2 for the Paymaster/Admin Cheif, S-2 1, those are ones I can confirm, I would guess another two for other guard posts and such.

Regiment, the same, about six again for specific guard details.

I at one time did know the info but its been over a dozen years. But generaly six shotguns per HQ unit and two or three or even four per company.


As for personal weapons, they were not allowed, BUT!!!! When in the Gulf prior to deployment we had asked and at the last minute the word was given that we could get our own pistols and shotguns if they were 9mm or .45 and 12 guage. And a officer in the reports did exactly it was commical, it said he had a pistol in every pocket! The downside for our Bn was we were in Okinawa when the word was given that we could have our own 12 gauges and 9mms and .45s I remember I was cleaning the windows durring field day when the Platoon Sgt said it was okayed, BUT, we had to arrainge for getting them there from home. GOOD LUCK with that! So I am guessing the powers that be knew that hurdle and it was next to impossible so they said "sure go for it"

Another thing,

I would imagine that once the war got hot and heavy, units would purchase their own stuff out of the company fund or pass the hat and order them purchasing them on open market, as well as old Salts brining their own stuff as the need for men increased and the demand for weapons commanders would be less anal about the rules. Especialy with the increase in Urban combat where they would be usefull, and also, granted I am no tanker type but I would imagine a good shotgun would be a good tool to remove unwanted guests from the top of your tank or APC without damaging to much external equipment as would a rifle round or SMG would do.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Only one I ever remember seeing in British use was the Browning auto riot.

[Brother in Arms]

WW2:
M97 Winchester Riot and Trench
M12 Winchester Riot and Trench
M10 remington
M11 Remington
M31 Remington
M30 Stevens
M520 Stevens Riot and Trench
M620A Stevens
M720 Savage
M37 Ithaca (my favorite) Riot and Trench

Vietnam they added
M870 Remington
M870 MK1 Trench (used by Navy and USMC)
M67 Savage
M77E sevens
M1200 Winchester Riot and Trench

Of course as they added newer shotguns in Vietnam but many of the older guns were still in use I have seen several photos of soldiers carrying M1897 trench guns in the RVN! I believe New M37's where purchased for use in VN (these were favored by the Navy seals and other a special forces groups)ARVN troops are often seen with 520 and 620 stevens shotguns and the M77E Stevens is said to be the most issued shotgun during VN but most where left to the ARVN at the end of the war as they where considered unsatisfactory for military service due to stock attachment point being weak often broke off the back of the receiver.

Coldwar Era:
M500 Mossberg
M590 Mossberg Trench

Where added to the in the Coldwar but some of the earlier shotguns were still being used most forgotten being the M1200. In fact I read a briefing from new Iraq war telling units equipped with old M1200 to turn them in for the new Benneli Joint tactical forces shotgun.

Best bet for twilight:
Mossberg 590 which would be the newest shotguns in the inventory and "replaced" the 870 Navy and Marine units. Though there are several pictures of Navy Seals carrying the 870 Mk1 in the 1990's. The Navy used a lot of Mossberg 500 on its ships toward the end of the 80's and my freind who was on a ship in 2000 said that is what his ship was equipped with.
Winchester 1200 for some army and air force units (saw a picture form the first gulf war showing a female soldier carrying a M1200 Trench)
Ithaca 37 could still be found kicking around in some unit inventories again navy being the most likely. But by the 80's I would suspect most of them had been replaced.

another interesting note I haven't seen modifications added to U.S. military shotguns from the coldwar era. But I have seen a picture of a commercial Sythentic Choate stock on a 870Mk1 Remington in the hands of a Marine and a factory Remington police top folding stock on a couple Remington 870Mk1 being used by Navy. I saw a picture of a top Folding stock on a Winchester 1200 Trench, and a commercial (butler creek or choate) collapsing stock on a mossberg 500. I have seen slings fitted to the Mossberg500, 590 ,870 but not as often as with none especially in older photos.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

I don't remember which shotgun it was (it's on my site, somewhere), but the SEALs in Vietnam took a semiautomatic shotgun and modified it for automatic fire. They had mixed results.

[Legbreaker]

More suited to shooting low flying planes than anything on the ground I would think. The recoil on that is scary.

Had a friend tinker with his semi auto shotgun back nearly 20 years ago - good thing it only had a three round mag!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

More suited to shooting low flying planes than anything on the ground I would think. The recoil on that is scary.

Or low-flying flocks of ducks?

[Brother in Arms]

Legbreaker
The shotgun in question sir is the 7188,which came in several different variations Mk1-MK6 though they are very minor (not sure if the 7188 should have the XM designation as far as I can find they were never formally adopted)

in anycase the shotgun in question was based on the Remington 1100 shotgun but with a full auto fire control group which had a 3 position selector switch instead of a safety button. Most had only 5 shot magazines but they did have a version with an magazine extension which had a 7 shot capacity. So total of either 6 or 8 shots with one in the pipe. This wouldn't last long in a full auto shotgun. Seems like you would be spending more of you time reloading it than shooting it. Which is already the case with semi-auto shotguns. Cheif James Watson discusses it briefly in the book Pointman.

Brother in Arms

[Legbreaker]

Yeah, fully auto is loads of fun, but practical is it not!



And that's coming from an ex M60 gunner!

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's something interesting -- I'm watching something about the Royal Marines on the Military Channel, and one of them on a patrol was armed with a SPAS-12. (It was a training exercise, so it may have been something they were testing out.)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Yeah, fully auto is loads of fun, but practical is it not!



And that's coming from an ex M60 gunner!

I loved the 60! I can't understand why so many troops complained about it -- it was just the right size for a short trooper like me.

[Legbreaker]

I was the smallest in my section (about 65 kgs / 140 lbs) and you couldn't drag it away from me. There's something just so RIGHT about a belt fed automatic weapon in your hands. :P

That and I got to aways ride with my head out the cargo hatch in the M113, first and last half picket at night, and rarely was assigned to the assault group rather than fire support in an attack.

Ah, the perks of a machinegunner!

Mind you I never had a decent assistant gunner worth anything more than an ammo mule so I got real good at changing barrels fast by myself and carrying out all the various stoppage drills.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I was the smallest in my section (about 65 kgs / 140 lbs) and you couldn't drag it away from me. There's something just so RIGHT about a belt fed automatic weapon in your hands. :P

You were about the same size as I was. In the Army, my weight hovered around 145, for 5 feet 8 inches. I was never athletic, just very fit.

[Raellus]

What do you guys think about the HK CAW automatic, mag-fed shotty from the v1.0 small arms guide? I'll reserve judgement for now.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What do you guys think about the HK CAW automatic, mag-fed shotty from the v1.0 small arms guide? I'll reserve judgement for now.

I love it. I have the full internal schematics for it on my hard drive. Want em?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

What do you guys think about the HK CAW automatic, mag-fed shotty from the v1.0 small arms guide? I'll reserve judgement for now.

From what I've read, the problem with the CAWS was not the weapon -- the troops that tested it loved it. The problem was the budget/supply chain; the CAWS uses all-brass shells that are not quite the same size as a 12-Gauge 3" magnum round (for some reason, 2.85 inches comes to mind, but that's probably not right) -- and most of the loads were interesting loads like tungsten flechettes, HE rounds, tungsten squares instead of standard round shot, AP sabots -- rounds that would have required the Pentagon to make a large investment in new ammunition.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Targan

I love it. I have the full internal schematics for it on my hard drive. Want em?

Send it to me. Not only do I want it, I can put it on my site so it's accessible to everyone without you having to individually email it to everyone.

[kato13]

Gamewise I always loved the Pancor Jackhammer



In addition to being a 10 round fully automatic shotgun the magazines could be converted into a improvised antipersonnel mine.

[jester]

Originally Posted by kato13

Gamewise I always loved the Pancor Jackhammer



In addition to being a 10 round fully automatic shotgun the magazines could be converted into a improvised antipersonnel mine.

I remember that one from an article back in the 80s. It avoided the thing that spelled the doom of must automatic shotguns and really any sustained fire of shotguns. The worry of cookoffs after a long firing session.

The chamber to the weapon was not in the weapon but in the magazine cassette, much like a cylinder on a revolver so the heat would not build up in the chamber and would have time to cool off between firing and reloading. A downside though, the ammo cassettes seemd a little bulky.

But, I did use it in one of my campaigns to good effect. I also used a "Sledgehammer" a pump action 40mm grenade launcher I loved making up my own T2K weapons. And oh yeah I also had a weapons system similiar to the one used in Alliens, using 5.56 as the primary weapon and a integral underbarrel 12 gauge or 20mm pump action grenade launcher.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

the CAWS uses all-brass shells that are not quite the same size as a 12-Gauge 3" magnum round (for some reason, 2.85 inches comes to mind, but that's probably not right) -- and most of the loads were interesting loads like tungsten flechettes, HE rounds, tungsten squares instead of standard round shot, AP sabots -- rounds that would have required the Pentagon to make a large investment in new ammunition.

Hm. Special ammo, huh? I'd assumed (usually a mistake ) that it used standard 12-gauge ammo. Special ammo would dry up pretty quickly and would become extremely scarce. By 2000, it sounds like the CAW would only be good for a flashy, expensive club (kind of like the H&K G-11 AR).

I guess in the PAW, a Mossy or Remy would be a much better choice than a fancy automatic shotty.

[jester]

Ah! But brass cassings can be reloaded more than plastic shells, so in T2K you would have the same issues with shotgun ammo as you would with rifle.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

Ah! But brass cassings can be reloaded more than plastic shells, so in T2K you would have the same issues with shotgun ammo as you would with rifle.

I was going to write exactly that but decided not to because we've had these sorts of threads so often before. But you are correct. Brass-cased CAWS shells would be easily reloadable I would think. Sorry, I forgot to post the internal schematics for the CAWS. I'll do it tonight.

[Targan]

HK CAWS patent documents file attached.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by jester

Ah! But brass cassings can be reloaded more than plastic shells, so in T2K you would have the same issues with shotgun ammo as you would with rifle.

Good point.

Still, there'd be a lot more plastic shells out there to start with than CAW-only compatible brass ones. Especially in North America, where shotguns are relatively common among the civie population.

But, perhaps the reloadability of the CAW's brass shells would mitigate this starting advantage somewhat.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

But, perhaps the reloadability of the CAW's brass shells would mitigate this starting advantage somewhat.

I would also guess you could trim them from 3" Magnum brass shells (they are used by some civilian shooters).