Aircraft/Armor Surplus Storage

[Olefin]

Keep in mind the thread with the very real possibility that the tanks and other armored vehicles at the Littlefield collection, many of which had live barrels and operational fire control systems, would have been used in 2000 and 2001 to get the CA MilGov units some armor

and remember that the Mexican's only real tank they had (at least based on real world info) was the Stuart tank

As for the Sheridans taking on other tanks - most likely by the time the Army got around to getting more of them in the fight their wouldnt have been many tanks on the other side left to get in the fight

most likely they would have been used openly against infantry that didnt have ATGM's or RPG's - look at the Texas module for instance - the marauder and Mexican units described had very few of either of those weapons - there a Sheridan could be decisive in a battle -

and there is always this - its cold blooded but it works - i.e. you use the Sheridans to draw fire and find the enemy ATGM's and tanks and then take them out with the only M1A1 or M60 or M48 you have operational

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind the thread with the very real possibility that the tanks and other armored vehicles at the Littlefield collection, many of which had live barrels and operational fire control systems, would have been used in 2000 and 2001 to get the CA MilGov units some armor

I wonder how much of it would have gone to the collection with the V1 timeline and without a collapse of the Soviet Union. In that rather darker world less of this stuff would have gone to collectors and more kept by nation states for reserves and militia call ups or training. That said some of it would be a more of a logistical burden than help as armor support. I would see them in the defense of critical assets like air fields, rail yards, supply depots, and refineries before I would see burdening a unit with even one. Their too susceptible to modern light anti armor weapons lacking spall liners, fire extinguishers, compartmentalized fuel, and ammunition.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and remember that the Mexican's only real tank they had (at least based on real world info) was the Stuart tank

I would have sworn they had some Shermans and Lees too. I don’t know why in this any of the timelines that this Mexican army did not atleast purchase some T55s from Cuba or Nicaragua. Those are light enough to move quickly with a civilian semi and low boy trailer.

Originally Posted by Olefin

As for the Sheridans taking on other tanks - most likely by the time the Army got around to getting more of them in the fight their wouldnt have been many tanks on the other side left to get in the fight

Tanks draw fire. Everybody moves under the umbrella of their own fire support.

Originally Posted by Olefin

most likely they would have been used openly against infantry that didnt have ATGM's or RPG's - look at the Texas module for instance - the marauder and Mexican units described had very few of either of those weapons - there a Sheridan could be decisive in a battle -

The first operational kill of a tank is world war one and that was with artillery, the preferred engagement method. ATGMs and LAWs are defensive weapons.

Originally Posted by Olefin

and there is always this - its cold blooded but it works - i.e. you use the Sheridans to draw fire and find the enemy ATGM's and tanks and then take them out with the only M1A1 or M60 or M48 you have operational

Shouldn’t need to do that. A maneuver commander preps probable locations with artillery fires that only stop (shift to the next target) as the armor platoon arrives on it with infantry support.

Doctrinally, on first sighting the flash and smoke of an ATGM the crew executes a turn toward the launcher or oblique across the front, fires smoke grenades, and starts the smoke generator. The gunner engage the launch are with the coaxial machinegun aided by thermal sights to make life hard for SACLOS systems like Mexican BGM-71 TOW 1 systems. The Battalion FO behind them is shifting BN 81mm mortars onto the enemy ATGM source using the armors tracers to backtrace the launcher. The Brigade FO is calling down the Divarty reserve 105mm to saturate that area too. The infantry support is going to dismount move up, call for a shift fire by the BN and BDE FOs and then mop up that launcher and any support it had. Any commander that was using his troops as live bait would be sacked and probably court martialed for good cause. Soldiery is dangerous but, one expects not to be wasted needlessly. You can get a new tank from the factory is six months or a year but, crewmen are going to need 18 years to hatch.

[Olefin]

the question is whether or not there would any divisional artillery to fire at enemy ATGM teams - by 2000 the Mexican Army has almost no artillery left and if you look at many of the light divisions with as few men as they have left several of them might be down to foot infantry and a few mortars and thats it

As for the Mexican Army - the only Shermans they ever got were basically engineering vehicles - they had Stuarts for tanks but they never invested in anything heavier than APC's and armored cars otherwise as their main opponents were either bandit groups, internal rebel groups that had no armor of any kind and drug lords and criminal groups - in other words they didnt need tanks

Now here the real question is whether or not in 1996 and 1997 would they have tried to get some armor from possibly the Brazilians or maybe the Israelis after it was pretty obvious that things were getting very very bad indeed worldwide and they knew that possibly the US might start looking at their oil resources - if they did then they you could be looking at Sherman tanks from Israel, more Stuarts to complement the force they had from South American countries that were operating them (for instance Paraguay) and also some stuff from Brazil

But not sure if the US would ok Israel shipping them to Mexico - at least not after Israel joined up with CENTCOM as an ally - and the fact that they would have to ship them thru the Med which was a very unhealthy place to be in 1996 and 1997

Now could you see some T-55's from Cuba and Nicaragua - possibly - but since Cuba was trying to stay under the US radar they might not have arrived till after TDM - by then the US wasn't in much of a position to stop trade from Cuba to Mexico (after all they didn't stop the Soviets being shipped from Cuba to Mexico and they were a much bigger threat than a freighter full of T-55's) - and if Nicaragua openly supported the Soviets there might not have been many of those tanks still around after a few US airstrikes

As for Littlefield's collection - keep in mind that a lot of his Soviet stuff he got from places like Egypt and the like - and while he won't have his SCUD he would probably have most of his Western tanks, APC's, armored cars and the like - the ones he obtained before the Twilight War start between the Soviets and Chinese are more than enough to help MilGov a lot - and his other big contribution are his techs and his shop - which is exactly what you need to put stuff like the Sheridans back together and into operation

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Now could you see some T-55's from Cuba and Nicaragua - possibly - but since Cuba was trying to stay under the US radar they might not have arrived till after TDM - by then the US wasn't in much of a position to stop trade from Cuba to Mexico (after all they didn't stop the Soviets being shipped from Cuba to Mexico and they were a much bigger threat than a freighter full of T-55's) - and if Nicaragua openly supported the Soviets there might not have been many of those tanks still around after a few US airstrikes

Is there any details on what the Soviet would have in the South-West US in way of Armour?

Cuba had only one ship capable of carrying armour, a Polnocny-class landing ship which could carry about 8 armored personnel carriers, Im guessing BTR-60or 70s.

I dont see the Soviet Division have much left in the way of personel or equipment left in Cuba given that the Soviet are fighting China and NATO.

I also remember reading about the Cubans wanting to get rid of Soviets, I am guessing that could do with some sort of US Airstrikes earlier in the war?

The Mexican Navy could help out too but at the time of TW 2000 the Mexican Navy had only USS Clearwater County (LST-602) Crica 1943 for sea transport

I'm not sure what if any soviet armour could fit in the Cargo Hold?

I am also thinking the cubans might be "You can leave with what ever you can carry"

just some thoughts

[Olefin]

This was an estimate I put in the Soviet Division Cuba thread based on real world data and what I figured the Soviets might get from the Cubans

As to how they got there - it really depends on if they landed the material at a friendly port versus by assault - considering the Mexicans were already in Texas I think its the friendly port situation

From the Soviet Division Cuba thread

"So at the very least you are looking at a 3000-3500 man training brigade and a motorized rifle regiment of 3000 men along with those manning the eavesdropping facility (3000 strong) and the naval personnel that manned the resupply facility for a total of 11,000 men.

That, combined with withdrawn personnel from various embassies in the area and possibly KGB and GRU personnel who were in Cuba would make for enough manpower for sure for a division.

If you look at what is written about them in the Texas module you can see they had a mix of BTR-70's and BMP's, with the BTR-70's being more prevalent which suggests it was a BTR Motorized Rifle Regiment and not a BMP one. Also what is interesting is that unless they were heavily reinforced by the Cubans with tanks, a MRR only has about 41 total tanks - a single tank battalion with an extra tank in the HQ section. Given what they had left it would mean they had only lost 26 tanks taking on the 49th which doesn't sound that realistic given the composition of the 49th. Most likely that means the Cubans reinforced them with tanks from their own units, thus resulting in the mix of tanks they have left - i.e. mostly T-72 or T-80 but also could be types the Cuban Army was equipped with.

So if you base its composition on historical information:

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - 3000 men with one tank battalion and three BTR battalions (which would have some BMP's as well) - the one on duty in Cuba

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - again about 3000 strong, most likely being the training personnel - armed with Cuban material - most likely a mix of BMP-1's and BTR-60's along with a tank battalion of T-62's

One Tank Battalion - another 40 or so tanks, again most likely Cuban T-62's or T-54/55 - 165 men

Recon Battalion and Engineering Battalion - around 350 men each

Artillery Regiment, SAM Regiment, various other support battalions - most likely formed from the signal and support troops in Cuba - about 3600 men or so if they were formed at full strength

One Helicopter Squadron of about 18 helicopters with at least some surviving to 2001, most likely heavy on attack helos, probably reinforced by captured American civilian helicopters (as mentioned in the Texas module the Soviet commander was hoping to use the fuel to get his attack helicopters back into operation) - maybe 200 men

Add it up its about 11,000 men - which matches what Gorbachev said was there in 1991

Plust that gives the Soviets around 120 tanks of various types at the start - which gives them more than enough to engage the 49th with a real possibility of victory when you add in the BTR's and BMP's that are with them"

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Olefin

One Motorized Rifle Regiment - again about 3000 strong, most likely being the training personnel - armed with Cuban material - most likely a mix of BMP-1's and BTR-60's along with a tank battalion of T-62's

One Tank Battalion - another 40 or so tanks, again most likely Cuban T-62's or T-54/55 - 165 men

Add it up its about 11,000 men - which matches what Gorbachev said was there in 1991

Two to think about

1. As stated above, how do you transport BTR and Tanks with only two ships? Mexico has one old LST for cargo and troops and Cuba has the other one that will have to many runs to haul the BTRs, not sure if it can haul any tanks. And its Cuban, not sure they would let them the Soviet use or take away equipment they are going to need. Cuban might worried about rebel or later US invasion. Think about the problems with Op Omega?

2. In 1991 there was 11,000 men in Cuba, after war with China and NATO how many would be left and fit to fight? I mean your not going to keep a fully equipment division with top of line gear, on a small island when you need troops at home are you? How about resupply too? do you think once the shooting starts the US is going to let the soviet resupply of any kind in Cuba?

[Olefin]

Actually I have a feeling they were stranded there and the US had a lot more issues to worry about - plus they probably didnt think things would get so bad that any Soviet troops from Cuba even had a chance to make it to US soil

as for transport - you can load APC's into freighters and other kinds of ships as well - but you are right about the tanks - one possible source could be a Soviet transport that can take tanks being "interned" by the Cubans - or possibly even some neutral ships - once the nukes started flying I could see a Liberian flagged vessel, for instance, decide that any port is better than eating a torpedo in the Gulf or risk docking in any port anywhere near oil facilities in the US or Mexico or Venezuela

Its one of the deus ex machina aspects of the timeline

Stuff like

How did they transport Soviet Division Cuba without the proper ships or fuel with enough tanks to hand 49th Armored its head before it got Stingray tanks and Peacekeeper Armored Cars as replacements for all the tanks they lost against Soviet Division Cuba?

How did the Greek Navy's light ships destroy the escorts of the convoy to Turkey when most of their ships were WWII retreads or missile ships that have about a five minute survival time against a task force with Harpoons?

How did the Soviets somehow have more ships in the Pacific than the USN did to where they could succesfully pull off an assault on the Candaian coast and then try and drive on Seattle?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Keep in mind the thread with the very real possibility that the tanks and other armored vehicles at the Littlefield collection, many of which had live barrels and operational fire control systems, would have been used in 2000 and 2001 to get the CA MilGov units some armor

and remember that the Mexican's only real tank they had (at least based on real world info) was the Stuart tank

In all honestly I don't think at the federal level much of the Littlefield collection would matter. Most of the WW2 stuff doesn't have spares. The armor that it has is to light against even 73mm of BMP1s, and RPGS would eat them. Making ammunition would divert critical assets from making munitions for current generation stuff. Do you make 100 75mm Pak40 rounds for a Panzer IV that is probably not going to get off three rounds.

If anything the most recent generation stuff probably as someone will be around that can operate it and maintain it. WW2 and Korea would get fobbed off to state militias to guard the ports, airports, and water dams. If it can't use modern ammunition and diesel the fed governments are going to take a pass, this would just burden a logistics system that is already near collapse.

[ArmySGT.]

Come to think of it....... The Israelis would be in the market for Shermans and Halftracks..... They operate those now in 2015 in support roles. The Shermans as Trailblazer engineering vehicles and the halftracks as supply and commo vehicles with all terrain capability.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

In all honestly I don't think at the federal level much of the Littlefield collection would matter. Most of the WW2 stuff doesn't have spares. The armor that it has is to light against even 73mm of BMP1s, and RPGS would eat them. Making ammunition would divert critical assets from making munitions for current generation stuff. Do you make 100 75mm Pak40 rounds for a Panzer IV that is probably not going to get off three rounds.

If anything the most recent generation stuff probably as someone will be around that can operate it and maintain it. WW2 and Korea would get fobbed off to state militias to guard the ports, airports, and water dams. If it can't use modern ammunition and diesel the fed governments are going to take a pass, this would just burden a logistics system that is already near collapse.

The Panzer doesnt even have a live barrel so I dont expect to see that in action

But the AMX-13, the Conqueror Heavy Tank, the M50 Sherman (which can hold its own quite nicely in a tank fight against most of what the Mexicans have) and the Centurion Mk13 Tank that they have will do the job nicely - I dont expect his Stuarts, Lees and any German WWII tanks to get into the fight as they dont have live barrels but the rest have operational guns

and you would be surprised how much ammo there is around still for many of those vehicles

and they wont need to make a lot of ammo by 2000 - probably one basic load per vehicle is about all they will ever need - keep in mind that the entire Mexican Army in California has 10 AFV's by 2001 - and by that we are talking Stuarts and armored cars - and most units will be luckly to have one RPG with a couple of rounds at best