Primitive and early weapons, Kinda T2K......

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by The Dark

In WTH, bows have a range of triple the square root of their energy, rounded to the nearest 10 meters. The wood bow (English longbow) would generate 50 joules per meter of length, and the composite bow (Mongol bow) would generate 70 joules per meter of length, so a composite bow of 5/7 the length of a wood bow would generate the same energy and have the same range and damage.

That's cool enough that I'm going to have to buy the PDF for sure now. I think I'm going to take my friend Jason's advice on Range and NOT use Skill in the primary range calculation (despite the fact that skill has far more bearing on shooting range with projectile weapons). Instead, I will do like I settled on with Firearms and allow Skill to be the weapon's Point Blank Range in meters (for firearms is use Skill in meters for long arms and 1/2 Skill (ru) in meters for handguns).

The WBH takes care of Draw Length affecting Range as well as Construction Type. The only change I might make is to factor in Efficiency so I can use it as an effect of Wear Value. I would add 10% to a bow's Efficiency, which will bring the majority of bow's above 100% (95% seems to be an upper limit on Efficiency). Bow's who won't be above 100%, like home-made PVC bows (which range from 70% to 80% depending on the builder's skill), and those take-down "survival bows" sold to "preppers" (which average 80% Efficiency) will have to multiply their base energy by their modified score. Thus, a 70% Efficiency PVC bow will multiply their Joules of Energy by .8 (after adding 10%) BEFORE doing the Damage or Range Calculations. For every 2 points of Wear Value above 1, you will SUBTRACT 5% from the bow's Efficiency (thus reducing DAM and Base Range).

The only other change I MIGHT make is to change the Range Multiplier from 3 times the square root to 2 times the square root FOR BOWS (I'd leave Crossbows alone). The ranges you list are a little "long" for most point shooting with bows. An "ethical shot" on a deer for the average hunter is 20 to 25 meters tops. An expert can pin the 8" vitals at 40 to 50 meters. A 100-meter shot would require the bowman to aim more than a FOOT over the target's head (sometimes SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than a foot). Thus, the Short/Base Range should be between 15 and 25 meters for an average (2 or 3 Skill in my game) shooter.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

That's cool enough that I'm going to have to buy the PDF for sure now. I think I'm going to take my friend Jason's advice on Range and NOT use Skill in the primary range calculation (despite the fact that skill has far more bearing on shooting range with projectile weapons). Instead, I will do like I settled on with Firearms and allow Skill to be the weapon's Point Blank Range in meters (for firearms is use Skill in meters for long arms and 1/2 Skill (ru) in meters for handguns).

The WBH takes care of Draw Length affecting Range as well as Construction Type. The only change I might make is to factor in Efficiency so I can use it as an effect of Wear Value. I would add 10% to a bow's Efficiency, which will bring the majority of bow's above 100% (95% seems to be an upper limit on Efficiency). Bow's who won't be above 100%, like home-made PVC bows (which range from 70% to 80% depending on the builder's skill), and those take-down "survival bows" sold to "preppers" (which average 80% Efficiency) will have to multiply their base energy by their modified score. Thus, a 70% Efficiency PVC bow will multiply their Joules of Energy by .8 (after adding 10%) BEFORE doing the Damage or Range Calculations. For every 2 points of Wear Value above 1, you will SUBTRACT 5% from the bow's Efficiency (thus reducing DAM and Base Range).

The only other change I MIGHT make is to change the Range Multiplier from 3 times the square root to 2 times the square root FOR BOWS (I'd leave Crossbows alone). The ranges you list are a little "long" for most point shooting with bows. An "ethical shot" on a deer for the average hunter is 20 to 25 meters tops. An expert can pin the 8" vitals at 40 to 50 meters. A 100-meter shot would require the bowman to aim more than a FOOT over the target's head (sometimes SIGNIFICANTLY MORE than a foot). Thus, the Short/Base Range should be between 15 and 25 meters for an average (2 or 3 Skill in my game) shooter.

It also has a mass combat rules for a couple hundred people, I haven't looked at those yet.

[The Dark]

Since the OP mentioned wanting black powder weapons and I was wandering in weird portions of the internet, here's one from a video I saw:

Black Powder Colt M1911A1

Originally done just as a curiosity, some regions began converting Colt M1911 pistols to fire black powder rounds as more modern powders ran short. One early problem was that the lower pressures would often fail to cycle the action, which was resolved by salvaging springs from the models chambered for 9mm Para and using those springs on the .45 Colts. The lighter spring allowed the black powder rounds to cycle normally. While still as capable of causing injury as the smokeless powder, the black powder rounds had a shorter accurate range due to the lower muzzle velocity. As smokeless powder production resumed, these guns became hazards when salvaged. Most of them were not visually distinct from unconverted M1911s, leaving them with a dangerously light spring.

M1911A1BP: RoF SA, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 9

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by The Dark

Since the OP mentioned wanting black powder weapons and I was wandering in weird portions of the internet, here's one from a video I saw:

Black Powder Colt M1911A1

Originally done just as a curiosity, some regions began converting Colt M1911 pistols to fire black powder rounds as more modern powders ran short. One early problem was that the lower pressures would often fail to cycle the action, which was resolved by salvaging springs from the models chambered for 9mm Para and using those springs on the .45 Colts. The lighter spring allowed the black powder rounds to cycle normally. While still as capable of causing injury as the smokeless powder, the black powder rounds had a shorter accurate range due to the lower muzzle velocity. As smokeless powder production resumed, these guns became hazards when salvaged. Most of them were not visually distinct from unconverted M1911s, leaving them with a dangerously light spring.

M1911A1BP: RoF SA, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 1, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 9

Cool!

[The Dark]

I did up some historical black powder weapons.

Model 1795 Musket: Based on the French Charleville musket, this was produced by Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories to the tune of 20,000 weapons.
Weight 4.55 kg, Ammunition 17.5x43mm ball, Ammo weight 31 grams
RoF SS, Rld 3, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 10, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 39

Model 1812 Musket: An improved M1795, produced only at Springfield, it was just too late to see service in the War of 1812.
Weight 4.55 kg, Ammunition 17.4x30mm ball, Ammo weight 22 grams
RoF SS, Rld 3, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 9, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 47

Model 1803 Rifle: The first American-made armory rifle, produced at Harpers Ferry.
Weight 4.08 kg, Ammunition 13.7x45mm ball, Ammo weight 20 grams
RoF SS, Rld 4, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Bulk 8, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 235

Model 1819 Hall Rifle: The first breech-loading rifle to see service with the military. As the sealing gasket wore, it had a tendency to vent hot gas into the shooter's face.
Weight 4.66 kg, Ammunition 13.7x45mm ball, Ammo weight 20 grams
RoF SS, Rld 2, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Bulk 8, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 230

Model 1806 Pistol: An early flintlock pistol made at Harpers Ferry.
Weight 1.16 kg, Ammunition 13.7x13.5mm ball, Ammo weight 6 grams
RoF SS, Rld 2, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 2, SS 1, Burst Nil, Rng 3
(no, seriously, the range is only 3, it's seriously underpowered)

[Vespers War]

More thoughts on bows and crossbows.

So, there's a YouTube channel (isn't there always) for an English fellow who makes crossbows. In one of his videos, he compared a modern crossbow and compound bow to a 95-lb longbow and 850-lb crossbow. The longbow produced only 39 joules of energy (which was noted as being low and possibly an indicator that the bow was tired from disuse), the modern bow 71 joules, the steel crossbow 101 joules and the modern crossbow 129 joules.

Under original WTH rules, the longbow would be Dam 0.4, the modern bow 0.6, the 850-lb crossbow 0.7, and the modern crossbow 0.8. With my revision to divide by 5 instead of 15, they're 1.2, 1.7, 2.0, and 2.3 respectively. Dam 2 for an 850-pound draw crossbow still feels a little light to me, but if I use the size of the crossbow (0.7 meters) and the tables from WTH rather than its calculated energy from actual shooting, it calculates to Dam 2.51 with a required STR of 11 and Rng 38.

Also note that a windlass isn't required until 500 joules of shaft energy, and another video of a ~1000 pound draw crossbow only generated 110 joules of shaft energy, so someone made a major error somewhere in their calculation; even just looking at the energy table in the book, you'd need a 3.3 meter long steel bow to require a windlass! For a minor revision, I would drop the windlass requirement by a factor of 10, to 50 joules. For a more major revision, base it on STR rather than energy. A character can span a bow with a STR requirement equal to or less than their STR with no mechanical advantage. With a cocking lever, they can span a bow up to double their STR, and a windlass lets them span any bow. Reload is 2/3/5 respectively based on the spanning equipment needed.

Likewise, the Penetration calculation is that a projectile of 600 joules or more has Pen 1-Nil and anything less is Pen Nil, which would require a 4 meter steel bow. I would drop that by the same factor of 10, to 60 joules.

(honestly, the more I look at the bow rules the more they're a hot mess, but they at least give a starting point to tweak into a reasonable facsimile of plausibility)

[Vespers War]

A year later, some more thoughts on bows.

I'm trying to keep my modifications as simple and easy to drop into existing rules as possible; swaghauler's got the extensive modifications down, so my niche is minor modifications that amend rules rather than replace them.

Here's where my thinking is these days:

1. Change the divisor for damage from 15 to 5, so that the formula for damage is the square root of energy (in joules) divided by 5. Most bows will be 1d6 or 2d6 for damage. This is the base damage for bodkin arrows.

2. Ignore the firearm style Pen. Instead, bows deal damage like melee weapons, and armor subtracts either its parenthetical (for ancient armor) or double its AV (for modern armor) from the damage rolled. This holds for flexible armor (maille or Kevlar). Solid armor (plate or SAPI) doubles its damage reduction against arrows (so 4x AV for modern rigid armor). This is still for bodkin arrows.

3. Broadheads add 1d6 damage to whatever bow they're used with, but all armor is doubled (so flexible modern armor subtracts 4x AV and rigid modern armor 8x AV from the damage roll).

This gives us bows that are fairly useful, and gives a reason for different arrowheads. It gets rid of that pesky Pen problem. Rigid armor has done much better than flexible armor in the tests I've seen, which is why it gets doubled in protective value against arrows. I'm sure it could be tweaked a bit more, but this should give relatively simple drop-in rules that don't require changing anything else in the existing rules.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I did up some historical black powder weapons.

Model 1795 Musket: Based on the French Charleville musket, this was produced by Springfield and Harpers Ferry armories to the tune of 20,000 weapons.
Weight 4.55 kg, Ammunition 17.5x43mm ball, Ammo weight 31 grams
RoF SS, Rld 3, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 10, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 39

Model 1812 Musket: An improved M1795, produced only at Springfield, it was just too late to see service in the War of 1812.
Weight 4.55 kg, Ammunition 17.4x30mm ball, Ammo weight 22 grams
RoF SS, Rld 3, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Bulk 9, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 47

Model 1803 Rifle: The first American-made armory rifle, produced at Harpers Ferry.
Weight 4.08 kg, Ammunition 13.7x45mm ball, Ammo weight 20 grams
RoF SS, Rld 4, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Bulk 8, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 235

Model 1819 Hall Rifle: The first breech-loading rifle to see service with the military. As the sealing gasket wore, it had a tendency to vent hot gas into the shooter's face.
Weight 4.66 kg, Ammunition 13.7x45mm ball, Ammo weight 20 grams
RoF SS, Rld 2, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Bulk 8, SS 2, Burst Nil, Rng 230

Model 1806 Pistol: An early flintlock pistol made at Harpers Ferry.
Weight 1.16 kg, Ammunition 13.7x13.5mm ball, Ammo weight 6 grams
RoF SS, Rld 2, Dam 1, Pen Nil, Bulk 2, SS 1, Burst Nil, Rng 3
(no, seriously, the range is only 3, it's seriously underpowered)

The one issue I see in these stats are the ranges. While I appreciate the difference between rifles and muskets, there is NO WAY that a rifle firing a ball round with a "flange" around it (to fit into the rifling of the weapon) is as aerodynamically efficient, and therefore as accurate, as a Spitzer bullet. Despite this, you have a short range of 235m for the 1803 Rifle and a short range of 230m for the Hall Rifle in a game that gives a Remington 700 with a 26" barrel a short range of 75 to 80 meters.
Also, most smoothbore muskets are able to hit a man at 50m but this does require a bit of familiarity with the weapon. Hitting anything beyond 100m is truly a display of superior skill. I think that the World Tamer's system is far too generous with the ranges its giving you. A smoothbore musket shooting ball should have a short range of between 20m and 30m to represent a more realistic set of range bands for an unrifled musket.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

The one issue I see in these stats are the ranges. While I appreciate the difference between rifles and muskets, there is NO WAY that a rifle firing a ball round with a "flange" around it (to fit into the rifling of the weapon) is as aerodynamically efficient, and therefore as accurate, as a Spitzer bullet. Despite this, you have a short range of 235m for the 1803 Rifle and a short range of 230m for the Hall Rifle in a game that gives a Remington 700 with a 26" barrel a short range of 75 to 80 meters.
Also, most smoothbore muskets are able to hit a man at 50m but this does require a bit of familiarity with the weapon. Hitting anything beyond 100m is truly a display of superior skill. I think that the World Tamer's system is far too generous with the ranges its giving you. A smoothbore musket shooting ball should have a short range of between 20m and 30m to represent a more realistic set of range bands for an unrifled musket.

I suspect from the age that this was done with my first firearms spreadsheet, which didn't properly limit how much barrel length could add to range. Running the existing stats through my current spreadsheet, I get a range of 81m for both of the rifles (which have barrel lengths of 33" and 32.7"). The Model 1812 drops to 42 meters and the Model 1795 to 37 meters.

However, the powder charge for the Hall is high and the caliber is slightly overstated. Instead of 13.7x45mm, it should be 13.3x34mm (33.61mm to hold a 70-grain charge, but rounded up for simplicity). This changes it to Dam 2, SS 1, and Rng 68, and a round of ammunition is only 14 grams.