Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[Olefin]

Comes down to what you are trying to teach them to do

Riding a horse as in just riding it from point A to point B with no other distractions?

Or riding a horse in combat conditions and being able to control it while there are bullets and artillery shells going off?

Same with the horse itself - i.e. there are horses you can ride, horses that can pull a wagon and horses that can be ridden into combat and not freak out

To learn to ride a horse on trails usually takes the average person about a week to two weeks if they are doing it several hours per day. Now keep in mind that would be a person who had never ridden a horse before with a well broken in horse. Now if its a total neophyte on a barely broken in horse it would take a lot more.

One thing to keep in mind for all cavalry formations is if they took people who already knew how to ride and who may have even brought their own horses - i.e. the Kenyan Cavalry unit was created by people who were lifetime riders using their own horses starting with a few people who had military training

There are countries where raising a cavalry unit due to how many people still ride would easier - i.e. Russia, Ethiopia, the US, China, England, Poland for instance come to mind - the question is are the cavalry units in the Army guides composed of neophytes who had to be taught to ride or did they comb every unit in the area to find people who knew how to ride horses and "trade" for them - i.e. here you can have these 200 guys who dont know how to ride in exchange for those 100 guys you have who do?

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

To learn to ride a horse on trails usually takes the average person about a week to two weeks if they are doing it several hours per day. Now keep in mind that would be a person who had never ridden a horse before with a well broken in horse.

If the horse is well broken in, you can learn and apply the basics of horsemanship a lot more quickly than that. After a five minute orientation, my kids (12 and 9 at the time), who had never ridden before, were riding just fine. After about an hour on the trail, they were confident enough to try galloping. I hadn't ridden a horse since I was in grade school, 30 years or so ago, and I had no problem controlling my mount. There is a caveat, though- this was on a trail with experienced riders/guides.

I would say, for dragoons, a couple of weeks of intensive training would do the trick. Riding probably wouldn't even take up majority of the cycle. Most of that time would be devoted to care and maintenance of the horses and tackle.

It would be really helpful to have a cadre of experienced riders to assist with training and whatnot, but as long as broken-in mounts are available, raising dragoon units from completely inexperienced city slickers wouldn't be that difficult, or even particularly time-consuming. Like I said, assuming they'd already had basic, in a pinch, said prospective dragoons could be up and ready to go a couple of weeks. The salient factor is the availability of ready riding horses and suitable tackle. That's the main limiter.

[Olefin]

I would say Raellus that also depends on what kind of country you are riding thru as well - i.e. its one thing to ride horses over open relatively level ground - its another to ride over rough broken terrain or thru forests where you have to be able to maneuver them

and also are they dragoons, cavalry or lancers - dragoons are basically using the horses as transport and nothing more, cavalry are going into combat with the horses (both mounted and unmounted), while lancers are using the horse the old fashioned way - to put a hell of a lot of speed and force behind the lance you are putting right thru the unlucky chest of the people you are fighting

one thing the canon really didnt make clear is with the units that switched to cavalry (except in Silesia which clearly showed them armed with lances) what they were as to type of mounted forces

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I would say Raellus that also depends on what kind of country you are riding thru as well - i.e. its one thing to ride horses over open relatively level ground - its another to ride over rough broken terrain or thru forests where you have to be able to maneuver them

Fair point, but my kids rode their first trail in Flagstaff, Arizona, in a forest, with lots of loose lava rock littering the ground, and plenty of elevation changes- i.e. broken terrain/forest. And they did fine with only a 5-minute orientation.

[Raellus]

Have any of you ever sat through all of making-of features of the Lord Of the Rings trilogy? (I think it's from the The Two Towers bonus content) There's an interesting bit about assembling the "Rohirrim" for the shoot that could provide some insight into this topic. The production company put out an all-call for experienced riders to serve as extras in the film. A couple hundred Kiwis answered the call. They were set up with costumes and props and the rest is celluloid history. I can see a similar thing happening in T2K, but with real, modern weapons instead of rubber medieval ones.

Anyway, in a T2K scenario, cavalry units would be raised in a couple of ways. First, all-volunteer units like Olefin's Kenyan example. Second, levies with requisitioned horses.

I can see some, more independent-minded horse owners balking at turning their prized horseflesh over to the government/military, and you might see anti-gov't mounted partisan groups forming as a result. Think about someone like Cliven Bundy and his ilk in the U.S.A.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Have any of you ever sat through all of making-of features of the Lord Of the Rings trilogy? (I think it's from the The Two Towers bonus content) There's an interesting bit about assembling the "Rohirrim" for the shoot that could provide some insight into this topic. The production company put out an all-call for experienced riders to serve as extras in the film. A couple hundred Kiwis answered the call. They were set up with costumes and props and the rest is celluloid history. I can see a similar thing happening in T2K, but with real, modern weapons instead of rubber medieval ones.

Anyway, in a T2K scenario, cavalry units would be raised in a couple of ways. First, all-volunteer units like Olefin's Kenyan example. Second, levies with requisitioned horses.

I can see some, more independent-minded horse owners balking at turning their prized horseflesh over to the government/military, and you might see anti-gov't mounted partisan groups forming as a result. Think about someone like Cliven Bundy and his ilk in the U.S.A.

I completely agree with you there about some people being pretty testy if they get ordered to turn over their horses and deciding they were going to do something about it. Especially if it means they are losing their only means of transportation in the bargain. And I can see people who love horses seeing them getting mistreated by some converted infantryman and not being very happy about it.

[rcaf_777]

in bicycle vs horse calvary, bicycles win hands done you only have one (rider) vs two (rider and animal)

[therantingsavant]

Originally Posted by Raellus

It would be really helpful to have a cadre of experienced riders to assist with training and whatnot, but as long as broken-in mounts are available, raising dragoon units from completely inexperienced city slickers wouldn't be that difficult, or even particularly time-consuming. Like I said, assuming they'd already had basic, in a pinch, said prospective dragoons could be up and ready to go a couple of weeks. The salient factor is the availability of ready riding horses and suitable tackle. That's the main limiter.

RAW, T2k v2.2 p138-139 Skill Improvement "Instruction" suggests:

Instruction: A character may be taught a skill. Teaching a skill is Difficult: Instruction. The instructor may teach a number of students
equal to his Instruction skill level and must have a skill level in the skill being taught. An instructor cannot teach a student whose skill level in the subject taught is equal to or greater than that of the instructor. The task takes one period per day for one week (seven consecutive days). Successful completion of the task (rolled for at the end of the week) results in experience points for both the students and the instructor. The instructor gains experience
for accomplishing a task as explained in the experience rules. Students gain a number of experience points (in the skill being taught) based on the number of students being taught.

If the number of students is less than half of the instructor's skill level, each student gains three experience points. If the number of students is half or more of the instructor's skill level, each student gains one experience
point.

New Skills: A character with no level in a particular skill (as differentiated from level 0 in a skill) may attempt to learn the skill. This may be done either through observation (in which case the level gained is 0) or through instruction (in which case the skill level gained is 1 ). In either case, the experience point cost will be 1.

So this implies that a cavalry officer with Instruction 2+ (CHR) and a basic Horsemanship (CON) skill could teach a group of infantrymen with no experience with horses all Horsemanship 2 in about 3-4 weeks.

So I'd think in-game, the limiting factor is the horses and tack.

[Legbreaker]

Worth bearing in mind that even somebody with no skill can sit on a horse and generally get it to go in the right direction. That's represented in 2.x as defaulting back to the controlling attribute.
Actually having some skill represents being able to do more than just sit there. Being able to do it well, takes a hell of a lot longer than a few weeks too!
My sister is 41 and has been riding competitively since she was about 6 years old. She's STILL taking lessons twice a week even though she's of olympic skill level.

A lot of it comes down to the horse though. A well trained horse with the right temperament in T2K would be worth more than it's weight in gold. A poorly trained horse, or one with an "attitude" is worth little more than the meals it can provide.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A lot of it comes down to the horse though. A well trained horse with the right temperament in T2K would be worth more than it's weight in gold. A poorly trained horse, or one with an "attitude" is worth little more than the meals it can provide.

AMEN - have seen this for myself - used to live in farm country and there were horses that anyone could get on ride and there were "If I were you I would choose another horse" kind of horses - usually followed by I told you so statements after you got picked off the ground