The Best That Never Was 2 (Prototypes)

[Raellus]

This beast is too recent to fit in any but the 2013 T2k continuity, but how can we not speculate at this Russian double-barreled SPAG?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...-artillery-gun

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[Vespers War]

C&Rsenal did an episode last week on the Gehendra Rifle. It was a late 1890s Nepalese rifle based on the Martini-Henry with modifications for domestic production. The action was modified to run on flat springs instead of a coil spring, and rifles were hand-fitted rather than machined. There was also a carbine version that's exceedingly rare - Nepal had little cavalry and it's not clear who the carbines were intended for. It's worth noting these post-date the introduction of smokeless powder and bolt-action rifles. Britain didn't want Nepal to have the most modern equipment, but did want Nepal to be better equipped than China in order to serve as a buffer state between India and China.

Gehendra Rifle
Wt 4.20 kg, Mag 1i, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Blk 8, SS 2, Rng 90

Gehendra Carbine
Wt 3.50 kg, Mag 1i, Dam 2, Pen Nil, Blk 6, SS 2, Rng 60

One other firearm developed in the late 1890s was the Bira, a manually cranked machine gun using an action similar to the Gardner but reversed so that the crank was rotated counter-clockwise instead of clockwise, as the inventor felt a pulling motion could be sustained longer than a pushing motion. It was twin-barreled and used a pan magazine that visually resembles the later Lewis magazine, loaded with 120 rounds of .577/450 Martini. They are incredibly heavy, at roughly 900 pounds for the gun, and each magazine weighs 30 pounds empty with the ammunition adding another 10 pounds when loaded. They were intended for use in defensive positions, so the tradeoff of massive weight in exchange for more reliability was viewed as a positive. Like the rifles, parts were hand-fitted to each gun, so most pieces are not interchangeable without shims or other modifications.

Recoil is negligible since the gun is so heavy and is mounted on what's basically a light artillery carriage. Rate of Fire is based on Royal Navy tests of the Gardner, which fired 236 rounds in 30 seconds in its 2-barrel configuration. Since this is less than 700 RPM, ROF is 5 rather than 10 based on the guidelines in Infantry Weapons of the World.

Bira Manual Repeater
Wt 410 kg, ROF 5, Mag 120, Dam 3, Pen Nil, Blk 10, Rng 115

[Raellus]

A massive, ramjet-powered nuclear-tipped cruise missile with a range of around 4,000 miles.

https://www.twz.com/38188/the-soviet...ld-war-monster

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[Tegyrius]

It looks like the M2A3 Bradley Hellfire and 1e's M920 Hellfire AT Vehicle may have had some factual basis. According to this, ground-launched Hellfires were trialed on HMMWVs and an M901 in 1990-91:

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/m998-glh-l/

- C.

[Homer]

Not sure if it was ever live fire tested, but the AUSA Greenbook circa 1983-4 had a picture of an 880 pickup with a twin hellfire mounted in the back reportedly being used as a surrogate by the “high tech test bed”. It’s been a minute, but I think the article was pretty heavily focused on the DIV 86 structures, especially the light and motorized divisions and the divisional aviation brigades.

That’s about the time were on the cusp of fielding tactical UAVs (Aquila), bringing in no-shine combat boots, and getting rid of the Dragon…

That may have been the same issue/year with the CAWS as a developmental weapons system, the M247 DIVAD test battery being fielded, and the add for the Ares 75mm automatic cannon mounted on the AAI high survivability test vehicle-lightweight- “In the time it takes to read this sentence, the ares 75mm cannon has put five rounds on target”.

[Raellus]

From the Technicals thread.

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[Homer]

Similar type vehicle. I think the picture I saw was taken out west, it was a little drier.

Lots of weird stuff got tested in that period.

[Raellus]

Please forgive me if this one's been posted before.

The Object 287 Taifun was a tank-destroyer (?) based on the T-64 chassis. It had a super-low-profile turret with two low-pressure 73mm guns on either side of a pop-up ATGM launcher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifun_9M15

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[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Please forgive me if this one's been posted before.

The Object 287 Taifun was a tank-destroyer (?) based on the T-64 chassis. It had a super-low-profile turret with two low-pressure 73mm guns on either side of a pop-up ATGM launcher.

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I don't think it's shown up in this thread previously, but it was the last vehicle I statted out in my Soviet Missile Tanks thread.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

I don't think it's shown up in this thread previously, but it was the last vehicle I statted out in my Soviet Missile Tanks thread.

Thanks, VW.

Here's a strange one- probably too late for the Twilight War, but not outside the realm of possibility. In the 1990s, perhaps taking a page from Israel's Merkava MBT, the Ukrainians experimented with a heavy IFV based on the T-72. The BMT-72 featured a stretched hull (see image below) to accommodate a five-man troop compartment between the turret (from the T-80, with reduced ammo capacity) and the engine block. Entrance and egress is affected via a trio of roof hatches (see image).

Information is sparse. The following link is the most comprehensive source I've managed to find.

https://en.topwar.ru/142484-tyazhela...2-ukraina.html

I'm not surprised that this design didn't enter production. A five-person infantry squad is underpowered, and exiting the vehicle under fire from roof hatches makes the dismounting under fire extremely hazardous.

The Ukrainians also experimented with a version based on their T-84 MBT, the BTMP-84 (2001). The concept and design was similar to the BMT-72, but the engine was offset from center to allow the five troops to dismount via a door in the rear of the tank (like the Merkava). This, no doubt, would have improved survivability for the dismounted infantry, but the project, offered for export, attracted no customers.

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[Vespers War]

There was also a Heavy APC program, the BMP-55. It converted a T-55 to an APC with a 3 person crew and 10 infantry passengers. They swapped the machine end for end so the engine would be at the front and the old front could be fitted with doors to avoid the ingress/egress issues of the BMT-72. They also swapped out the original engine for a 5TDF from a T-64. Armament was an RWS with a 12.7mm machine gun with the potential to mount a pair of ATGMs.

As an effort to find some use for obsolete T-54/55 hulls, it made sense. Unfortunately, it was proposed during the Peace Dividend era, and was probably relatively expensive given the extensive conversion being performed.

Additionally, 2005 saw the BMPV-64 prototype built. Shockingly, it was a T-64 conversion. 3 crew and up to 12 passengers, again swapped end-for-end to clear the rear for a clamshell door. The RWS for this one had a 30mm autocannon and a coaxial 7.62mm machine gun. Defenses were augmented with Nozh ERA and Zaslon active defense systems. Again, no sales were made.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

There was also a Heavy APC program, the BMP-55. It converted a T-55 to an APC with a 3 person crew and 10 infantry passengers. They swapped the machine end for end so the engine would be at the front and the old front could be fitted with doors to avoid the ingress/egress issues of the BMT-72. They also swapped out the original engine for a 5TDF from a T-64. Armament was an RWS with a 12.7mm machine gun with the potential to mount a pair of ATGMs.

Interesting. Sounds very much like the IDF's Achzarit heavy APC (also based on the T-54/55). It first entered service in 1988, so perhaps the Achzarit was an inspiration for the USSR's BMP-55.

Originally Posted by Vespers War

As an effort to find some use for obsolete T-54/55 hulls, it made sense. Unfortunately, it was proposed during the Peace Dividend era, and was probably relatively expensive given the extensive conversion being performed.

Given that most of the T2k timelines eliminate or tone down the Peace Dividend drawdowns, BMP-55 seems a likely candidate for at least partial-scale production and, therefore, would have made an appearance on the battlefields of the Twilight War. Dang, it's kind of a looker.

[Raellus]

A prototype mockup from our very own Chalkline mating a former East German 122mm howitzer to a West German Jaguar 2 Raketenjagdpanzer.

To me, this marriage makes perfect sense. HOT and TOW missiles are going to be used up quickly (plus, there are better platforms to use them). On the other hand, stockpiles of DDR 122mm rounds would probably last considerably longer.

[Vespers War]

Weight's likely going to be an issue with that conversion. The Raketenjagdpanzer 4 Jaguar 2 carried a TOW launcher and 20 missiles, which would be around 500 kilograms total. A 122mm howitzer is about 3 tonnes on its own, and the lightest shell is ~17.5 kilograms, so 47 of those will add another 822 kilograms. There will probably need to be some internal reinforcements because the hull's designed for recoilless systems, so I wouldn't be surprised if the overall vehicle weight went from 25 tons to 30 tons. That's still not a heavy vehicle, but the engine's sized for the original vehicle, and the horsepower per ton is going to drop from 20 to 16.67. That's roughly on par with a Swiss Panzer 58 and only slightly better than an M60 Main Battle Tank.

[ChalkLine]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Weight's likely going to be an issue with that conversion. The Raketenjagdpanzer 4 Jaguar 2 carried a TOW launcher and 20 missiles, which would be around 500 kilograms total. A 122mm howitzer is about 3 tonnes on its own, and the lightest shell is ~17.5 kilograms, so 47 of those will add another 822 kilograms. There will probably need to be some internal reinforcements because the hull's designed for recoilless systems, so I wouldn't be surprised if the overall vehicle weight went from 25 tons to 30 tons. That's still not a heavy vehicle, but the engine's sized for the original vehicle, and the horsepower per ton is going to drop from 20 to 16.67. That's roughly on par with a Swiss Panzer 58 and only slightly better than an M60 Main Battle Tank.

The howitzer is not that weight, it's 40kg lighter than the 90mm of the kanone. I suspect you are including the weight of the ground system.
That's why the amount of shells has decreased because 90mm shells are lighter than 122mm shells.

Here's the numbers:

Barrel: 4.27m
Hull: 6.61m

47x 122mm rounds.
27.5 tons.
70km/h.


122mm Howitzer: 990.65kg (21.7kg/shell) 122 x 447mmR
90mm Cannon: 1,030.00kg (19.2kg/shell) 90 x 600-615mmR
+1,800.0kg armour applique (included)

[Vespers War]

990.65 kilograms is the mass of just the barrel and breech added together and ignores things like the muzzle brake and recoil system. On the Gvozdika, the recoiling mass of the 122mm howitzer is 1,440 kilograms, and this excludes the stationary components like the gun cradle, loading assistance device (which could be eliminated), and recoil guard.

[Raellus]

Speaking of German prototype turretless AFVs, check out this oddity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VT_tank

From the article: "The idea was that the tank would close in on the enemy on a zig-zag course (Wedelfahrt, much like a skier wedeling downhill). The target would be locked into the aiming computer, the gunner would hold the trigger and the gun would fire automatically in the moment when the muzzle was on the target during the next change of direction."

The two guns aspect of the design was intended to increase the chances of a first-hit, I suppose? Or do the barrels alternate firing between directional changes (i.e. one fires on the zig, the other fires on the zag)?

[Raellus]

Just stumbled across this oddity- Chrysler's TV-8 medium, nuclear-powered tank. It looks like something one might encounter in the Fallout universe, not the real world (or T2k, really), but here it is.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...ddc96233&ei=45

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/chrysler-tv-8/

[Vespers War]

I ran across the TV-8 in one of R. P. Hunnicutt's books that my local library had. The plan was to build prototypes with a petrol-electric drive (powered by a 300 horsepower engine) and then figure out whether to switch to another powerplant, with nuclear as one of the options and a gas turbine as another. The design also had a waterjet at the bottom rear of the turret, because it was supposed to be amphibious.

The main gun was the 90mm T208, which had also been fitted to the T95 medium tank, with a pair of coaxial .30 calibre machineguns and a remote turret with a .50 cal AA gun on top.

The hull had only 20mm of armor, while the turret had frontal armor of 70mm at 68 degrees (effective thickness 187mm) and sides of 80mm at 45 degrees (effective thickness 113mm), plus an outer shell of ~10mm to act as spaced armor against HEAT warheads.

[Vespers War]

Ian released a video earlier today with a firearm preserved in Prague, the early 1920s Samostril Netsch. It's basically a Czech BAR, chambered for 7.92mm Mauser. The museum has a webpage with enough information on the gun to put together its stats.

Wt 7.82 kg, ROF 5, Mag 20, Dam 5, Pen 2-3-Nil, Bulk 9, SS 3, Brst 8, Range 100

The one trials it took part in, the gun broke after 23 shots, so there were some robustness issues. It does have some interesting features where the safety seals the rear of the action when engaged, and the front handguard can slide back to block the magazine well if there's no magazine loaded, both presumably efforts by a Great War survivor to keep mud out of the action. As the same sort of proto-SAW that the BAR could have been, it's an interesting what-if weapon.

[Raellus]

This could also fit in the Franken-AFV thread but since, AFAIK, it never entered production/service, this is probably the right place for it.

M41 Walker Bulldog / Cadillac-Gage Stingray Hybrid

From FIGHTING-VEHICLES.com:

"Another hybrid by Cadillac Gage, this time a Cadillac Gage Stingray turret married to the M41 hull. This offered less affluent countries operating the M41 the opportunity to up-gun and improve the vehicle."

https://fighting-vehicles.com/tanks/...ay-light-tank/

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[Vespers War]

Cadillac Gage was trying to sell the Stingray turret as an upgrade for a number of older tanks, including the M47 and M551 in addition to the M41. I could see any or all of those being plausible upgrades in a Twilight War scenario, trying to make old vehicles more relevant by giving them a 105mm L7 to replace the 76mm/90mm/152mm of the original turrets.

[Vespers War]

Perun's video on rocket artillery mentioned something I wasn't previously familiar with, the XM70 developed in the late 1950/early 1960s. It straddles the line between being a rocket launcher and an artillery piece, apparently using a very small charge to get the projectile down a rifled barrel, at which point the rocket ignites. The ammunition is more of a traditional rocket than a RAP, and the whole thing's pretty lightweight at 3100 pounds for a 115mm launcher.

It carried 6 rounds in a pair of contrarotating 3-round revolver cylinders, and could fire all 6 in 2.5 seconds. Range was supposed to be 10 miles.

One thing I noticed while reading up on it is that while 115mm never caught on as an explosive round, it was used for rockets with payloads of VX and sarin. Those rockets were around 57 pounds each including a 10 pound payload and a 3 pound bursting charge, with a range of around 6 miles (lacking the gun boost to their initial velocity). The chemical rockets were the M55, and the XM-54 was the HE version, with firing tests of the XM-54 "gun boosted rocket" from the XM-70 occurring in 1959.

They don't really fit into any of the existing Twilight War scenarios, but they're still a bit of an interesting what-if.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

One thing I noticed while reading up on it is that while 115mm never caught on as an explosive round, it was used for rockets with payloads of VX and sarin. Those rockets were around 57 pounds each including a 10 pound payload and a 3 pound bursting charge, with a range of around 6 miles (lacking the gun boost to their initial velocity). The chemical rockets were the M55, and the XM-54 was the HE version, with firing tests of the XM-54 "gun boosted rocket" from the XM-70 occurring in 1959.

About a decade ago, I was peripherally involved with the emergency protective program around one of the Army's chemical weapons stockpiles. M55s containing both VX and GB may have been out of service by the time of the Twilight War, but they were very much a going concern in storage until only a couple of years ago. There might be interesting plots around the disposition of those stockpiles after the TDM.

- C.

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

About a decade ago, I was peripherally involved with the emergency protective program around one of the Army's chemical weapons stockpiles. M55s containing both VX and GB may have been out of service by the time of the Twilight War, but they were very much a going concern in storage until only a couple of years ago. There might be interesting plots around the disposition of those stockpiles after the TDM.

- C.

Up until last year if one wants to be somewhat loose with the definition of "going concern" - the last M55 GB was destroyed on July 7, 2023 (the VX were destroyed first, the last of those on April 19, 2022). They were officially obsoleted in 1981, but in 2012 there were still over 69,000 in storage at Blue Grass, so plenty of opportunity for them to be recalled or go walkabout.