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#31
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I want to check my understanding of the Critical Injury rules (which are as follows).
CRITICAL INJURY: If the damage inflicted, after mitigation by armor and cover, is equal to or higher than the crit threshold of your weapon, you also inflict a critical injury on the target. Some weapons' Dam and Crit numbers are the same, so conceivably a single hit could generate a Critical Injury. However, most weapons' Crit number is higher than its Dam number (usually by one). My question: For weapons in the latter category, is using ammo die the only way to generate a Critical Injury? OR Could Critical Injuries be generated from a scenario like the one that follows: In round 1, the player hits a target in the right arm for 2 damage (the player's weapon's Crit value is 3). In the next round, the player hits the target in the same arm for another 2 damage. Since the total damage to that body part is now 4, over the weapon's Crit score, is a Critical Injury generated? Similarly, what if the player hits a different body part in the second round, still causes 2 points of damage. Now that the total damage to the target is 4, over the weapon's Crit score, is a Critical Injury generated? In other words, does only the damage from a single shot or burst count towards generating a Critical Injury? Or, does cumulative damage do so as well? (And, if so, is it cumulative to a single body part, or cumulative for the target's entire body?) Thanks, in advance. -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 12-30-2021 at 01:03 PM. |
#32
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Option 2 is definitely not an intended reading and frankly, I don't see how this could be read into it. This would immediately generate additional edge cases for rules interpretation that would make it absurd to play by these rules.
However, I'm not sure, how to read your first option and I think there are several misunderstandings at place here. Quote:
Now, I'm assuming you mixed up "lower" Crit number and "higher" Crit value in your initial statement, but ammo dice are by no means the only way to generate critical hits. Remember, you can generate up to 4 successes total without ammo dice, if your attribute and or skill level give you D10s and/or D12s. Any additional success in the to-hit roll gives you +1 damage (p. 63, right above the paragraph on critical hits). So a regular soldier with Agility C and Ranged Combat C would roll 2D8 and could come up with 2 successes, enough to trigger a critical hit with his rifle against an unarmored target not in cover. A better trained professional soldier (Agility B, Ranged Combat B) could hope for a critical hit much more often, however, maybe even against armored targets or those behind cover. Now, if opponents crouch themselves behind cover and are armor clad, then you might want to take aim with a good optic (+1) probably also seeking good support for your rifle (combined +2) or just let loose more rounds (1-6 ammo dice). Note, however, that successes on ammo dice also allow you to hit other targets, not just enhance damage on the initial target (p. 66).
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Liber et infractus |
#33
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![]() Corrected in OP. Quote:
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 12-30-2021 at 02:19 PM. |
#34
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One questions I've had regarding rule and mechanics:
Since Battle Rifle is not specifically mentioned under the Rifleman speciality, would you allow Rifleman to grant the +1 to hit with Battle Rifles? Without allowing it, you end up with the odd case that Hemvärnet members carrying AK4s who rolled/selected the Rifleman speciality, actually become more skilled at shooting people if they pickup a dropped Soviet AK-47/74... which seems weird and perhaps unintended. |
#35
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- C.
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Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
#36
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I concur with Tegyrius. I think not adding the apparently existing category of Battle Rilfes to the list of the Rifleman specialty (p. 50) is either an oversight in copy-editing or during finalization of the rules between alpha, beta and publication edition.
After checking the wording of alpha and beta rules, I realized that nothing had changed there during editing. So, I suppose it's a continuous error and adding the category of Battle Rifles was just forgotten. It just doesn't make sense for those rifles not to have a specialty that gives them +1. All other weapons get that opportunity. Thus I'd read "Rifleman" to encompass all 'longarms', except hunting and sniper rifles. These use "Sniper".
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Liber et infractus |
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"Rifleman" and "Battle Rifle" both contain the same root word (rifle!), so I would rule yes.
![]() I still haven't had a chance to play 4e, but I'm trying to get a grip on the rules in the hopes that, someday, I will. My next question is a follow-up on my earlier Crit question. DAMAGE: If your attack succeeds, you hit your target and inflict your weapon’s base damage rating on them. Each extra [target icon] rolled will increase the damage by 1. Roll for a random hit location and apply the effects of armor. So, as I understand it, you roll two die per ranged attack, one for the PC's attribute, the other for their applied skill. For the sake of example, and assuming no modifiers come into play, let's say the player/Ref rolls a six (one target icon) and a ten (two target icons). Since they rolled a six, they hit. Since there're TWO target icons on the other die, does that mean you add +2 to the damage? -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#38
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Correct. (unless they don't have the skill at all, in which case you only roll one die -- or if modifiers cause a die to be eliminated)
If they had rolled a miss on the first die, and a 10 on the second, that would still be two hits. The majority of small arms in the game have a crit rating one higher than their base damage, which makes either of these cases a critical hit. This is the main advantage that highly skilled shooters have - not only do they hit more often, but it tends to be more lethal when they do so. This is also why ammo dice are so useful, despite a lot of people underestimating their usefulness in the system. The odds are only 16% per die, but when you're in a firefight against multiple opponents, being able to hit more than one at once, or just put one down with a critical right now, becomes super important -- not to mention the significant importance of suppression. A ROF 3 shot has a 42% chance of achieving that! |
#39
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Unipus is right, the mechanic of ammo dice is extremely important. Also, I like the way they reflect the dynamics of a firefight, where soldiers try to shoot short bursts, but over the course of 10 seconds (1 combat round) might give off 5-10 bursts.
To me, using 3 ammo dice seems to be the optimum, adding three seperate chances of ~16.67 % to hit at least one additional target. The base damage will often be not the most important part, but you will confer 2 CUF rolls onto the enemy force. That results in two chances of morale failure, hence twice the chance to route the enemy in your turn. Proper target allocation and concentration of fire is a critical point in this game. Whoever controls morale will be able to move more freely and go into close combat, where less penalties apply and targets loose cover and concealment to a flanking force. That's exactly how firefights work, if current tactics are applied properly.
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Liber et infractus |
#40
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Yep. At a glance the system is a bit abstracted but in practice I saw immediately that it generates very believable results that emphasize fire and maneuver tactics. Whoever has fire superiority will generally maintain the initiative (in the true military sense -- I hate the way this word is traditionally used in the roleplaying game sense!) and the freedom to move, act, and win. Depending on how scarce ammo is, this leads to tough decisions about how much to shoot, which is good!
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#41
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In reverse order for the sake of arguments.
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Liber et infractus |
#42
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So, with opposed skill checks and whatnot, is it essentially whoever has the most target icons showing on their dice wins?
Is there also some sort of outstanding success or failure mechanic if X more targets are showing than on the opponents' dice? I seem to recall seeing something about an outstanding success mechanic somewhere in the 4e rules but, of course, now I can't find it. -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 01-17-2022 at 01:30 PM. |
#43
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There aren't any rules for triumphant successes or abysmal failures in T2K4. You have the push mechanic, for bending your luck at the (possible) cost of damaging gear or taking stress or (physical) strain yourself, but beyond that, it's either pass or fail.
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Liber et infractus |
#44
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Personally, I still always interpret it otherwise. For many tasks, 4 successes paints a much different picture than 1 and I narrate it that way. For other tasks, I sometimes make it clear before the role what the stakes are, ie "One success here and you'll get him to walk away... but you're gonna need more than that to really convince him of anything" or "any successes and you'll climb the wall -- more than that and you get it done quickly and quietly" and so on.
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#45
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MULTIPLE SUCCESSES: A roll of 10 or higher on a single die (only possible with a D10 or D12 of course) counts as two successes. This means you can potentially roll up to four successes with a single skill roll (two successes on each die), if you are both skilled and lucky. With bonus beyond the first one you can achieve additional effects, if explicitly stated in the rules. -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 01-19-2022 at 12:42 PM. |
#46
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I find the Killing Blow (see below) rule to be a little odd in that it attempts to strictly limit player agency by forcing a roll to execute an action based on solely on willpower. I agree that there should be some sort of a psychological penalty for doing something so taboo (e.g. the +1 stress point seems reasonable), but blocking the action based on a failed roll just seems unnecessarily restrictive and arbitrary. Taking the Killer specialty seems like an expensive way to avoid these restrictions.
KILLING BLOW A person who is incapacitated by damage is defenseless. If it’s a human being and you want to kill them outright, you must fail an EMP roll (roll one base die only). If the roll succeeds, you simply cannot force yourself to commit the deed. Even if the roll fails and you do kill the victim, you suffer 1 point of stress – killing in cold blood is not easy. If you have the Killer specialty (page 49) you can kill defenseless enemies without these negative effects. At the risk of sounding sanguine and immoral, does the mechanic of having to pass an EMP roll before being allowed to deliver a killing blow seem reasonable to you? Not to say that, as a player, I would ever want my PC to do this, but there might be circumstances where it's justifiable (a "mercy killing" to end the suffering of an untreatable, badly wounded enemy, for example). By the same token, as a Ref, I would make sure that if my players' PCs committed any unlawful killings, there would be IG consequences to contend with down the line (the OPFOR would commit even more resources to hunting them down, for example). The Killing Blow rule seems even more odd given the following rule in the Ranged Combat section. DEFENSELESS TARGET: If your target is in the same hex and immobile or unaware of you, you gain a +3 bonus. So, the rules give you a bonus to physically take action against an incapacitated NPC, but then forces an EMP roll to actually carry it out. Why so many hoops? I don't quite get it. -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 01-19-2022 at 07:15 PM. |
#47
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I'm pretty sure these two rules are not necessarily about the same types of targets. The first one is about targets that are "incapacitated by damage" and thus defenseless. The other one is about a target that is "in the same hex and immobile or unaware of you".
Thus, the second type can still be very much a threat. And the second rule is about how easy it's technically to hit them, but shooting an immobile, incapacitated person is still emotionally hard.
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#48
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By the same token I've never been a fan of games that use a "Coolness Under Fire" stat to limit / control what actions a character may or may not take. I'm not disputing the realism of these rules, I'm just not in favour of mechanisms that artificially restrict player agency - for me I see little enjoyment in playing a game where I'm told the only thing that my character can do is hug the bottom of a trench and pray because I failed a CUF roll (I'm equally opposed to 'inspirational leader' type rules that do the opposite - it's still an imposed restriction of player agency).
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom |
#49
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On the other hand, I like the concept of CUF as a mechanic. I think it's way too easy for a player playing a game to decide to take IC life-or-death risks with his/her fictional avatar. If a PC dies, it's not that hard to roll up a new one, or walk away from the game. IRL, if one willfully takes a risk that will likely result in getting shot, the consequences are much more serious. IRL, the decision to expose oneself to incoming fire is much harder, and the vast majority of people will choose self-preservation over valor. In this instance, a CUF mechanic does limit player agency, but, at the same time, it adds a layer of realism. So I guess, when it comes to whether or not to use CUF, it depends on whether Ref and/or players value agency or realism more. That's a conversation that I think Refs and players should before starting a campaign. -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 01-20-2022 at 12:33 PM. |
#50
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I somewhat agree. I do like that the rule tries to prevent murder-hoboism. I don't like that it places a firm prohibition on what the character does.
Here's a quick hack that preserves player agency but is still appropriately brutal: - If you fail your EMP roll*, then you can kill the victim as you wished. You take the 1 stress. - If you pass the EMP roll (and thus fail at being able to kill them in cold blood), you can still choose to do it anyway. However you now must take 1d6 stress, and if this incapacitates you, then you roll to pick up a trauma response as normal! You thought it would be easy to kill someone up close, huh? * note that this is the actual rule. You have to FAIL the empathy check, not pass it! |
#51
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What are your thoughts on CUF mechanics, in general, and 4e's, in particular? -
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#52
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I see the problem with player agency and agree that it is a sub-optimal solution to a problem that actually does exist. It's not far fetched to think that a party might get pinned down totally in one round and wiped out or forced to surrender in the next, without having the chance to act at all.
This might, of course, offer new chances to role-play, e. g. a surrender scene or a flight etc. However, this might not be an enjoyable part of the game as it's quite literally forced upon the players as much as their characters. However, since I decided to use the Bravo Zulu rules option from the Discord server, which basically introduces a limited amount of "dramatic change tokens" for enhanced player agency, I will allow the use of one of these Bravo Zulu points to immediately break out of suppression. It gives the players a choice to trade a rare resource and regain agency for their character. I found these rules on the Discord server.
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Liber et infractus |
#53
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#54
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@Raellus
It's linked in the Discord oriented towards 4E under the resource library. The link that pops up there leads here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ional_Rule.pdf Contact me, if it doesn't work. I'm reluctant to share it openly in another form, since it's not my work, but was uploaded by a user by the handle "Abulia".
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Liber et infractus |
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The link works. The PDF looks like an official 4e product. Very cool.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#56
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That's from their template for Workshop publications.
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#57
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I'm late to the discussion guys, but i've been reading up reviews on the new 4E rules by Free Legion. Most of the reviews i've been able to find focus on two things, only one of which is helpful.
They focus on the time line (not helpful, I'll make my own up if i don't like it thanks). they focus on the quality of the product. Great sketches, great quality, all reasonably helpful feedback. What they don't really get around to is if the game is any good. It sounds like a whole new rule set, and it sounds like its a reasonably good one. Are you guys enjoying the new game?
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"Beep me if the apocolypse comes" - Buffy Sommers |
#58
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1) The intended target/targets is/are: Violent and the PC has witnessed them causing harm to innocent civilians or the PC's own party. = EASY test. 2) The intended targets are RUMOURED to have committed atrocities and have attacked the PC's party with extreme violence. = ROUTINE test. 3) The intended targets were very hostile and have attacked the PC's party and the fight has just concluded. = AVERAGE test 4) The PCs came into a fight (possibly to help a 3rd party) with the intended targets but had no interactions prior to this fight. = FAIRLY DIFFICULT test 5) The PCs have no prior contact but are being told that the intended targets have committed atrocities. = DIFFICULT test 6) The targets are innocent civilians or unresisting wounded soldiers that the PCs did not just fight or interact with. = FORMIDABLE test 7) The targets are innocent children (or puppies/kittens) = IMPOSSIBLE test I believe, as someone who has exchanged fire with a 10-year-old skinny in Africa and pointed a gun at perps on three separate occasions in the civilian world, that the psychological implications of such acts are much greater than many people believe they are. Those implications are often every bit as damaging as physical wounds, so I instituted this mechanic as a "blend" between reality and player agency. I don't know IF I even hit that kid, but I DO KNOW that after the ambush on our convoy ended, he was laying in the street... DEAD... with 3 holes in his chest and that any one, or even all three of those bullets COULD BE MINE! That uncertainty is both a blessing and a curse. I don't really KNOW that I killed a kid, but I cannot say that I didn't either. I can STILL close my eyes today and see him as clearly as if it were yesterday firing that AK with the stock tucked under his arm. For those of you who have read my past postings, this was the same (and sole) ambush we had where the RPG rocket skipped off of the ground, went under our HEMMET, and blew a hole in the stone wall across the street as we were entering the Moge near 4 Circle North (heading to the Port from Kismayo on the South). God Bless the 2nd MEU for responding to our call for assistance fast and in force. |
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Man, that's a story! Sorry you had to go through that. What you describe is the same reason for firing squads... it's so the executioner has some doubt/deniability about whether THEY are the one that did the killing.
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#60
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I'm also in an intermittent v2.2 game online, so the main comparison I will make is that v4 is faster to play. The few firefights I ran were over pretty quickly, getting shot is pretty harsh. I think there's a bit to be uncovered (I think I mentioned this above): a GM can-- without any real work-- run NPCs in squad-like batches, further simplifying the mental paperwork for themselves. A lot of suppression of groups can happen, vice trying to pick off individual opposition. Both combat and the rest of the rules are aimed at simplicity and speed of play. I hear it's more gritty and crunchy than Free League's other games, but it's not as heavy as GDW's rules.
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My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988. |
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