Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Eddie]

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark to convey my meaning.

[Raellus]

Wow. And I thought I liked the movie. My uncle gave be a bootlegged VHS copy when I was like 13 and I must have watched it 50 times before going off to college. I've seen it a couple times since. I don't know why, but it just doesn't get old.

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar?

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Maybe I should have used the sarcmark to convey my meaning.

Heh, sarcasm.

Originally Posted by Raellus

Anyone notice the similarities between the Colonial Marines in Aliens and the PMCs in Avatar?

They share attitude/cockiness, powered exoskeleton things, dropships- even the spunky Latina character. There's also the heartless corporation angle. Burke and the Giovanni Ribisi character could be working for the same company (or taken the same business ethics class).

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

ARGH! Spoilers!!!!

If you watch the official trailer, I don't think any of that is really a spoiler.

[MajorPo]

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

[Webstral]

"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger?

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

If the alien drone hadn't wiped out the dropship crew in-flight the damage the smart gunners' fire may or may not have done to the reactor's cooling systems would have been irrelevent anyway because immediately after most of the Colonial Marines are wiped out in the fight in the nest, Cpl Hicks (the ranking Marine still conscious) agreed with Ripley to head back to the Sulaco and nuke the site from orbit. So the same end result would have occurred anyway. Its like Schrodinger's cat. If the dropship hadn't crashed there would have been a nuclear explosion either from the cooling system damage (if indeed the cooling system had been damaged by the Marines' fire) or from a nuclear warhead.

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by MajorPo

I always liked to think of 'Mad About You' as the home life of Carter Burke. I know the dating of the series obviously wouldn't match up but the back story it adds gives a certain poignancy to his role

Don't insult Helen Hunt like that! I wouldn't kick her out of my bed -- I'd tie her to it!

[headquarters]

Aliens as curriculum at military academies..hehe..why not ?

Our system here in Norway ( not that it is anything to break out the champagne for all in all ) revolves around our institutions of military advancement ,and two types of ranks .

1 Commissions : you can get one after schooling .You start out as what we call a cadet or "aspirant" at the NCO school with the typical selection process hardships .
After that is completed -usually 2 months - there is an additional 6 -12 month schooling process.

You are then an NCO of corporal or sgt rank and a mandatory 6-12 month practition /"experience " period ensues at your unit based in country/domestic.

After that ( 12 months -2 years as an NCO) you are given a commission as either a sgt or a 2nd lt.

You can then serve in that capacity formally -but to get platoon command or company command , a furter 2 years of schooling at the national military academy for your branch is needed .You will then end up with a commission as a LT.You are then set for a career at low to mid level -but additional schooling is required to get ranks above captain.

Field commissions : meritious advancement as some call it - able minded and bodied personell might be promoted temporarily to ranks that come with the job that the unit needs filled. Example : a platoon leader might be down , and if the situation dictates ,a replacement is made form say the 2nd LT nr 2 in the platoon -even though he has not gone through military academy until a formal replacement can be deployed .
Or say a private makes squad leader the same way .

As a rule no officer or NCO without "operational experience" ( tours abroad or the whole military academy thing ) are allowed command in combat operations .

Exceptions happen all the time though - including one of my PLT leaders back in 97-98 in my second tour .

He was a cronie of the COY cmdr -and landed his job that way .I would have had no problem with that if he hadnt been a ..well incompetent .

( After all - he was a welcome change from the previous LT who had to be removed from his position -highly competent but just crazy / no judgement).

Originally Posted by Webstral

"Aliens" remains my favorite movie of all time because there is just so much going on in it told in a quality way. I've seen the extended versions, and I have to say I'm glad the theatrical release was released as it was.

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole. He received plenty of training, what with several dozen simulated drops. Training only goes so far, though. Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure. His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience. Also, while I appreciate that there might be some extended footage showing the drop ship causing the problem with the reactor, without that footage we are forced to conclude that Drake and Vasquez cause the problem. Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

Note that as a private, Gorman's not so bad. He plays well with the team when he's no longer in charge. He fights bravely. Had he been obliged to enlist and go on a few missions first, he might have made an effective lieutenant.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Have I beaten this horse into hamburger?

There are other very powerful Vietnam-esque images woven througout "Aliens". The enemy is an archetype of the NLF/NVA. He has inferior technology but superior morale. He uses the terrain to his advantage, striking when the conditions are right for him. He prefers close combat that reduces the effectiveness of American firepower. His internal cohesion is superb. His commitment is superb. His willingness to absorb casualties for the sake of the mission is superb. The attack in which the enemy is crawling through the ceiling is a very nice turnabout of the underground infiltration techniques employed by the NLF/NVA.

Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message.

Webstral

P.S. Of course, there is far more going on in "Aliens" than the military commentary. I find the nuclear family and competing reproductive themes even more fascinating.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Webstral

...Not surpirsingly, some of the same Vietnam-esque imagery appears in "Avatar". I'm sick of Cameron's Vietnam references at this point, so I'm probably not as appreciative of all that in "Avatar" as I might otherwise be.

Personally I agree with you, I'm a little tired of Cameron wishing he could relive Vietnam. He wasn't there so he should just get over it. I will likely wait until Avatar is in the weekly rental bin at my local video store.

Originally Posted by Webstral

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone. All prospective West Pointers should be obliged to watch "Aliens" to see if they get the message...

Apparently, Australian Army officers from both the Royal Military College and the Officer Cadet School were obliged to watch the 1960s movie 'Zulu' for the same type of reason. I don't know when the practice stopped but since the advent of the Australian Defence Force Academy, it's likely the movie is no longer used to illustrate officers in command.

[Legbreaker]

We were shown one of the Blackadder Goes Forth episodes at Canungra (jungle warfare) because of the extremely accurate way they delivered orders. Seems the writers had done their research.
It was probably the only half hour of the entire course that wasn't crushingly difficult.

[headquarters]

the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers 2nd battallion apparently had some use of the series Sharps Rifles with Sean Bean in educational purposes .

I remember seeing one or two of these when on exchange there at platoon seargent selction - selection course . ( Pre selection )

Selection was in Wales somewhere called the Breacons I believe .

[Eddie]

Wow...in one thread I've had my country insulted for being over-aggressive, trigger-lovers and now had my profession insulted as being tragically flawed for not doing it X way and being riddled with incompetents because they chose to go to college and be leaders first instead of followers first.

Originally Posted by Webstral

Gorman couldn't have done any better than he did because he is a statement about butterbars in Vietnam specifically and the commissioning process of the United States military (the Army in particular) as a whole.

Really? Because the US as a whole, and the Army in particular are still stuck in the way we did things in Vietnam?

Gorman is a classic "gentlemen officer" of the sort epitomized by West Point: a great attitude about getting in there and fighting the good fight but too little experience to make good decisions under pressure.

Because you've worked with so many West Point graduates, Web? For the record, I just gave up a company command in the 25th Infantry where I had four 2LTs that I rated. The most competent, tactically sound one I had was a West Point graduate from 2008.

His personal gear, his weapon, and his role as observer and coordinator make plain the idea that he is not one of the Marines. (Also, his little work station in the APC makes a nice reference to the hive command structure of the enemy.) Had Gorman done things the right way, he could not have served as such a powerful indictment fo the commissioning system we "enjoy" in the US.

First of all, his job as the commander on the ground is be where he can best control his units and keep SA of the battlefield. The TTP of having the PL in a Bradley/Tank/APC/giant-flying-super-ninja-bot, where he has access to all of the command and control and asset coordination capabilities is a pretty common one. Then, the PSG gets on the ground and fights the fight while the PL controls the fight. That is what Gorman is supposed to do in a fight. However he can best accomplish that is his call. Armchair general it all you want, his platoon, his decision.

The indiscipline of Drake and Vasquez serves to illustrate the effects of a breakdown in trust and effective command resulting from having a buttterbar in charge of a mission that clearly requires field experience.

Trust and effective command? What about just basic undisciplined individuals that don't want to listen?

Again, the problem goes back to the mission leadership. Gorman failed to make good decisions, thereby creating the window of opportunity for the catamity that befalls his command and the mission.

All because he's not prior-enlisted. That would have solved everything and negated all of the constraints that he had enforced on him and thereby passed down to them.

No officer should ever be commissioned without being a private first! Neither West Point nor ROTC nor OCS should take anyone with less than two years of enlisted time--preferably as a rifleman with one combat tour under his belt. Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm so sick of hearing this. As a Company Commander, with 8 years prior enlisted experience to my 4 years (in April) of commissioned time, this statement is the most frequently stated bullshit that I hear. Enlisted service does absolutely nothing for an officer other than give him an instant ability to relate to his Joes. I do 2 years as a supply clerk, drop an OCS packet, and get commissioned as an Infantry officer. Or an Aviator. Or an Intel officer. My prior enlisted time really helps. I know so much more. He can be a shithead just as easily or be shit hot. In fact, two of the most competent butterbars I've ever worked with or had work for me were 2LTs straight out of West Point, Infantry OBC, and Ranger School, thrown into a platoon and told "Run with it." One of them in combat. One of them in garrison.

Don't bother replying. I've said my piece. I've not attacked anyone personally. And I'm not obtuse enough to think that anything I say here is going to make a switch click in any of your heads and bring about a miraculous, "Oh, yeah, I didn't see it that way before." However, I will refer you back to my intro post in the Military Service thread from several months ago and the fact that I'm a few months shy of 12 years of Active Federal Service in the US Army...and a product of it's horrendous commissioning system.

Yeah, I think I'm done here now.

Deuces.

[Targan]

Wow. So Eddie, why don't you tell us how you really feel?

[kato13]

Eddie sorry that your feel insulted. I want you to know you have my respect man.

I often feel insulted on this board as well. It sucks. I really blame it all on one person who has demonstrated very strong anti American feelings. Given the trends I have been seeing in posting I feel eventually he is going to lead to the death of this board.

It is a shame really.

[copeab]

Heinlein, in Starship Troopers (and perhaps elsewhere), presented the idea that no one should be allowed to be an officer without first seeing combat. The problem, of course, is that you can't really do this in a peacetime army. The skills that makes one a great wartime officer aren't quite the same as what makes one a great peacetime officer, either, so you can't really be sure with a peacetime army which officers are really fit for combat command and which aren't until the shooting starts.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Targan

The dropship crashing meant that the mission suddenly became sharply time-critical, also for a variety of reasons. The survivors were almost certain to have been overrun some time that night even if the reactor didn't go critical.

IIRC, there was a minimum time for Bishop to get to the transmitter station (the link to the command building also being severed by the crash) and pilot the second drop ship down.

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Gorman, ah Gorman! He serves his literary purpose, as does poor Apone.

On reflection, Apone doesn't come off so well -- he does a poor job of being a senior NCO faced with a poor officer.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by copeab

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail?

[Webstral]

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

Webstral

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Targan

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail?

I think it was the first Marine to get attacked (Deitrich?) who said "Maybe they don't show up on IR", looked directly at one curled up in a wall and turned away, not seeing it.

I'm not quite sure what could have been done about drop ship security. You really couldn't leave any of the Marines behind to guard it (the contingent was already small enough) and, at the time, it seemed like a better idea to have the ship near the colony rather than parked off in the wilderness.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

It was either stated or implied that Burke had personally selected Gorman for the mission while the mess hall scene made it clear that Gorman was a new CO for the squad (while other comments made it clear that at least some of the soldiers had served with each other).

[fightingflamingo]

Eddie - sorry you feel that way. I agree with both you and Web about different aspects of the commisioning process in the US Army (19 yr E7 here). I think on balance the process works pretty well in the active component. In the reserve component the OCS grads tend to be better at the O-1 level, not so much because they can relate to their joes better, but rather because they've seen and know how to use their NCO's more effectively, without micro managing them. The micro managing of senior NCO's is something that I think happens with the current US commisioning system, that detracts from the quality of O-1's as they learn to work this out.

That said, the current commisioning system while structured on a the same model as was used during Vietnam, now produces a vastly superior product. Those of us with enlisted service will always be detractors of 2nd LT's, especially those of us who serve or have served as PSG's, and have an active hand in mentoring 2nd LT's into 1st LT's and future company command.

@ Kato - I agree that the tenor of the board has gone down hill, and I think I relate that to the same individual who doesn't seem to care, or get his own offensive behavior. And for my part as an American I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War, as an American I bear moral responsibilty for the fictional global genocide portrayed by GDW, it was my fictional government which prolonged the fictional Sino-Soviet War by supplying the fictional Chinese government with arms and other war material so that they could continue to resist the fictional Soviet Invasion. Further, my fictionally democratically elected government supported the fictional West German militarists intent on unification of their great homeland by force of arms, which began as passive support, and ended with a fictional invasion of the DDR, and Poland lead by my fictionally great nation, and it's obviously fictional allies. This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by fightingflamingo

...I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War...

And so you should!

Seriously though almost every participant had a hand in starting the war either by direct action, or lack of political will.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Webstral

Anyone who makes it through that and still wants to lead has a much better chance of being effective than a ring-bearer or a 90-day wonder.

I'm here to publicly acknowledge that I went too far with this one. Gentlemen, I apologize for dragging down the tone of the board with this example of name-calling. While I maintain that the commissioning process is in need of reform, there is no defensible reason to denegrate West Point graduates by calling them "ring-bearers" or to denegrate non-prior service OCS graduates by calling them "90-day wonders". Without attempting to defend or explain any other part of my argument, I want to acknowledge that I chose my words in poor spirit and apologize for showing my less-than-respectful side on the board.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well gentlemen there's certainly a lot to mull over in this thread.
From what I had seen in the past and one of the reason I decided to join this forum was that people could express themselves without being too offensive and without others being so sensitive that they would take offense.
I know myself that I'm not particularly clever at saying something without it appearing cold,cynical, too blunt or borderline antagonistic - I accept that my personality is retarded and that I don't express myself well enough at times so I apologize for any ill-will that I may have caused for the past, present and the future.

However, this last lot of exchanges shows that there seems to be a whole lot of angst floating around the forum. While I have seen some things that are anti-American, I've seen a few that are very pro-American and by default come across as being anti-someone else.
I'm not saying that should balance everything out and I'm not saying that it's right or corect, what I'm saying is that people should pull their head in and think about how their words will be taken before they submit the post.
Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

Kato has a tough enough time as it is, you should all know that from the message he posted before about his personal life. He doesn't need more trouble. If this comes across as the school master chastising the students, maybe that's what we need, a good kick in the arse to say "stop behaving like arsehats."
So please gentlemen, consider if your words may be offensive before you post but hand in hand with that, readers should stop reading between the lines to try and find anything potentially offensive in what has been written.

I'll climb off the soapbox now, flame me at your leisure

[kato13]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

You are very right my "death of the forum" quote is not a colorful exaggeration.

Posts by unique users have been trending way down since the DC group vs canon argument started. We have gone from an average of over 65 users per 500 posts down to 38. The dominance of the top 12 or so posters has also vastly increased. We have moved from the top 12 most active posters providing ~55% of the posts to currently providing 82% of the posts, 90% if you go to the top 15. (note all of my posts are excluded from the calculations above as I have been the most dominate poster for the forum's run).

With over 25 years of message board experience this looks to me like the beginning of a death spiral where only those with the strongest stomach will remain posting here. The rumblings of new forums being created are starting, and the factionalism that comes with them will be close behind.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by fightingflamingo

This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

I'm confused about this part of an otherwise funny rant. Are you upset with an Australian poster? I don't recall saying too much that was offensive lately but if I have I apologise.

Following Kato's pronouncement that the DCWG's work would be considered canon on this forum I had intended to keep a low profile because I thought the pronouncement was a form of censorship and would have a very negative impact. As it turned out I was wrong and things seem to have been fine around here for weeks. Perhaps I was wrong and things aren't as fine as they seem. That's a pity for me because I was feeling comfortable posting here again but it would be a great deal more unfortunate for the forum as a whole. If Kato pulls the pin then we're all back in the internet wilderness again.

Lets sort this stuff out. If issues can't be resolved through private messages then Kato should take things to the next level and caution or ban posters, if that means still having a forum. If I'm the problem then ban me, please. No individual poster is bigger than the forum and no one deserves to feel insulted and have no resolution to accumulated bad blood. I hope I'm not the problem and this ends up being my final post but if so, VIVA LA FORUM!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I wonder if these anti-American statements are meant in a mostly harmless, playfully teasing way or if they are meant to be provocative.

From an Australian's point of view, absolutely. That tends to be the way the Australian sense of humour works. It is well known inside Australia that as a culture we tend to suffer from "tall poppy syndrome". I doubt very much any members of this forum are truly anti-American, if they were why would they involve themselves in a group that is numerically dominated by Americans?

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept". I was simultaneously amused and insulted by that, and it caused me to feel a bit defensive. I thought to myself "there are only 21 million or so of us and the proportion of GDP Australia spends on its military is comperable to other western nations".

I think that on the whole Australians are very fond of Americans in general. Sometimes we get upset at the perception that decisions made by the US Government sometimes affect the rest of the world negatively but hey, if China was the world's dominating superpower I expect we would be a lot less happy. Another issue that Australians may have is that American culture tends to be a bit overpowering as a result of cheap US media exports. Anybody in Australia who has a big problem with that has the option to not watch TV or visit cinemas. None of these things should affect the relationships between posters on this forum. Our mutual respect and long history as stalwart brothers in arms are much stronger factors in our relationship as brother cultures.

In closing I say be cool companjeros, be cool.

Edit: If this post is more a part of the problem than part of the solution feel free to delete it Kato. I don't want to make things worse.

[Legbreaker]

As one of the top 12 most active (I think), I have to say I've increased activity of late. Wouldn't this increase in post rate skew results somewhat?

NOTE!
No comment I ever make is intentionally made to insult others. Here in Australia we have a culture of banter and teasing - the more we like somebody the harder we do it and the more we expect to receive it back!

For example, you might call your best mate a wanker and mean it with the greatest of respect and affection.