The loss of modern infantry weapons

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Targan - You seem to know alot about the physical aspects of the weapons, could you make an M16 out of recycled/smelted steel given a good machine shop and skill?

I confess I only have very limited armorer experience, but I wouldn't want to try to reproduce an M-16 in a primitive shop. You'd have better luck with those old hardy Russian SMGs or even an AK-47.

I once read a book (or maybe it was a short story?) where some time travelers went back in time to try to allow the Confederacy to win (no, not Turtledove's superb Guns of the South). What was the war-winning item they took with them? Plans for modern gunpowder, and especially, plans for the Sten SMG. That's a weapon that could be reproduced pretty easily. They introduced it to JEB Stuart as a weapon for his cavalry forces, and an SMG would be excellent for horse-borne forces.

[jester]

Or a simple cast iron two piece body that screws together, that looks like a "teardrop" shape thus, the heavy explosive end will always hit first and blow.

The fat or bottom end of the teardrop will have a hole about 1 inch in the bottom, a pressure plate will also be there on the outside covering a large portion of the bottom so when it hits the plate slams the fulminate of mercury inside igniting a quick or instant fuse.

So basicsly the bomb will look like a inverted icecream cone with a nub on the end, or even an icecreamcone with a cherry on top, the cherry is the detonator, the scoop of icecream the explosive and the cone the body.

You could potentialy have a dual charge weapon with these too.

A charge in the icecream which propels the cone into the air where a quick fuse causes it to explode a half second after the ball side explodes.

Another item, a cheap tincan or sheet metal device with an explosion inside of course and then filled with a combination of metal fragments and manuer to cause greater casualties.

Another item, clay pots with metal built in them and filled with explosives, the clay shatters and sends the clay shards and metal fragments fliying.

[headquarters]

The Ar15 platforms are just to finicky to be reliably built by hand .( Same as you Paul -got only limited experience but have seen and read some ).Think of the specific tempers of the steels and whatnot you need to make it go.

So I say -manufacture it yourself is most efficient if you use what caliber most prolific in your area.

Is there a cache of 9 mm ? Make cheap SMGs like the Sten.
Someone did make them in the woods of Poland during WWII with hand tools.

If rifle ammo like 5.56 maybe a singleshot .223 bolt or breach loader. Or a Ar 18 or AK variety -whatever is easier to produce.

Or if truly out of options - go for blackpowder weapons that can be made by a cottage industry with cheap materials and inexperienced manpower.

I love this "building the premisses" discussion .Inspiring to go back to the basic plans .

If you can get it - pics of "technicals" -improvised fighting vehicles are always a great addition to a T2K campaign imho .

Also it is what militias would use as spare parts gets rare .

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I confess I only have very limited armorer experience, but I wouldn't want to try to reproduce an M-16 in a primitive shop. You'd have better luck with those old hardy Russian SMGs or even an AK-47.

I once read a book (or maybe it was a short story?) where some time travelers went back in time to try to allow the Confederacy to win (no, not Turtledove's superb Guns of the South). What was the war-winning item they took with them? Plans for modern gunpowder, and especially, plans for the Sten SMG. That's a weapon that could be reproduced pretty easily. They introduced it to JEB Stuart as a weapon for his cavalry forces, and an SMG would be excellent for horse-borne forces.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by jester

Or a simple cast iron two piece body that screws together, that looks like a "teardrop" shape thus, the heavy explosive end will always hit first and blow.

The fat or bottom end of the teardrop will have a hole about 1 inch in the bottom, a pressure plate will also be there on the outside covering a large portion of the bottom so when it hits the plate slams the fulminate of mercury inside igniting a quick or instant fuse.

So basicsly the bomb will look like a inverted icecream cone with a nub on the end, or even an icecreamcone with a cherry on top, the cherry is the detonator, the scoop of icecream the explosive and the cone the body.

You could potentialy have a dual charge weapon with these too.

Excellent ideas. And that cone shape is also what you need if you arre making shaped charges. Simple anti-armor weapon anyone? Love it.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Ooh, I like the grenades idea. But how to detonate them?

Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Dead simple. Put the grenades in glass or clay jars which will shatter on impact. Pull the pins just before firing.

The Viet Cong had a similar boobytrap -- they put the grenades inside clods of clay, covered them to look like dirt clods, then put them on roads and trails. GI kicks the clod by accident or on purpose, and BOOM!

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Don't forget oversized tripod mounted crossbows for checkpoints and guard houses. They don't fire often, but should make a significantly large mess of softskin vehicles.
If you're feeling really keen, strap an explosive charge of some type on the missile with an impact detonator. That should mess up most APCs although I don't know how safe it would be to fire....

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

Those guys are getting too close time to break down and move.... George don't forget the tripod this time.....lol

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

You have thought about way too much. Gee. Go back 400 years some distant battle field...

That makes no sense.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

That makes no sense.

I think what he was saying was that by going back to crossbows one is ignoring 400 years of technology.

As far a crossbows go, I can certainly see areas without much of an industrial base going in that direction, but there was a reason those weapons were for the most part abandoned 400 years ago.

I have not had much time recently so this is my first post in this thread. One thing to remember is that Ney York City has the largest port on the East Coast. Millions of tons of war material would have traveled through the area. A portion is going to get stolen and a portion is going to be in the rail yards, on the docks or just loaded onto ships when TDM happens. You also have the lost weapons of the Police/MP and elements of the 85th infantry Division.

IMO NYC is going to have a larger proportion of Military small arms floating around it's populace than most areas of the country. Personally my goals would be to capture and refurbish them.

[Webstral]

I can't remember if I posted this anywhere else, so at the risk of repeating myself I gave the manufacture of small arms within SAMAD (Thunder Empire) some thought. There is a great deal of 5.56mm brass and filled ammo around, plus reloading equipment, courtesy of the Pentagon's Division of Contingency Planning. There is also some 9mm Parabellum and a comparatively large quantity of 7.62x51mm ammo and equipment. Unexpectedly, gangs of Phoenix discovered a train load of .357 Magnum which was abandoned in Phoenix some time in late 1997 or early 1998. No one knows the story behind why such a large shipment of what is essentially civilian handgun ammunition was moving through Phoenix, but one does not look a gift horse in the mouth.

(SAMAD traded the gangs for the ammunition, which opens a whole other can of worms about ethics. During 1999, Huachuca had a bare-bones idea of what was going on in Phoenix, even if the gruesome details were a bit out of focus. There were no illusions that by trading food and other finished goods for the trainload of .357 ammunition and a host of scavenged materials that Huachuca, in effect, was providing material support for Phoenix's armies of the night, Mayors, and Dukes. But I digress...)

The gunsmiths and workshops of SAMAD design a handful of weapons to use the available mix of ammunition. The following notes reflect the status as of early 2001.

The so-called "SKH" is essentially an SKS chambered for 5.56 NATO. The manufacturers use as many stamped parts as possible, given their circumstances. Like the SKS, the SKH is a semi-auto rifle with an integral ten-round magazine and no autofire capability. The stock and all wooden parts are of mesquite. The barrel is somewhat longer than the barrel of the SKS, which compensates somewhat for the limited quality of barrel manufacture SAMAD can manage. Effective range is about 250 meters.

The Huachuca SMG is a copy of the PPsH-41 SMG manufactured by the Soviets during the Great Patriotic War. The Huachuca version is chambered for .357 Magnum, since there is a good deal of it available from 1999 onwards. Some modifications have been made, such as the addition of a forward grip. [Author's note: I have to do some more research on how the .357 brass is going to interact with the bolt face.] The finished product superficially resembles a Thompson SMG.

SAMAD also manufactures a pump-action shotgun based on the Mossberg 500. Stock and forward pistol grip are of mesquite.

A battle rifle based on the Springfield 1903 is also in very limited production. The Huachuca version has some modifications to simplify manufacture. Effective range is reduced somewhat as a consequence of the manufacturing trade-offs. The rifle fires the same 7.62x51mm round as the M60 MG. All wooden parts are of mesquite.

SAMAD also produces a six-shot .357 Magnum revolver as its standard side arm and for the civilian market. (Despite the authoritarian nature of the SAMAD government by 2001, the right of the citizenry to self-defense is recognized. Few can afford one of these revolvers, so carrying one becomes something of a status symbol.)

The long-term goal of manufacturing small arms is the creation of a strong export capacity, in addition to the provision of arms for the forces of SAMAD. Huachuca wants to (re-)equip militias throughout Arizona. Ideally, Huachuca will have something to offer MilGov during the inevitable reconciliation talks. Perhaps even more significantly, around the time that an American Special Operations team is recovering a downed weather satellite in southern Baja California, Constitutionalist forces in California initiate operations to secure the entirety of the Baja. The Second Mexican Civil War offers the Americans the opportunity to pit Mexican factions against each other and possibly replace the existing Mexican government with one that will be much friendlier to the US. Unfortunately, Colorado Springs is not in a position to take advantage of this opportunity. Fort Huachuca is. The provision of small arms and ammunition on any scale will be welcome and (hopefully) remembered by the Constitutionalist government of Mexico.

Webstral

[chico20854]

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

[jester]

Originally Posted by chico20854

in the 1990s, the us government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 m1 rifles
125,000 m2 carbines
575,000 m14 rifles
650,000 m16 rifles
115,000 m4 carbines
75,000 m1903 rifles
100,000 m1911 pistols
62,000 browning automatic rifles
35,000 m3 submachineguns
14,000 m177 carbines
12,000 m2 machine guns
21,000 m1919 machine guns

this was the result of the post-cold war drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the cold war determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many us army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the us military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and fema stockpiles like the one detailed in allegheny uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the us army 30-06 ammo for garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

Imho.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo!

[JHart]

And when they mean destroy, they don't mess around. I saw a show featuring the Anniston Army Depot, and they showed how a weapon is destroyed by throwing the all the parts of an M-16, the barrel and receiver included, into a roller/grinder device that breaks the parts into smaller unusable bits.

[Legbreaker]

And then it gets melted down to make razor blades, or spoons, or drink cans, or....

Sad really. Really, really sad.

[Targan]

Yeah, what a waste.

[neuk]

I think making weapons would be easy for a well orginised community. The task is a skilled metal workers job. You would need the lathes, drill presses etc. Then you would need to power them, that is already covered by the rules. You would have to people producing fuel to power generators, or, the tools directly by an overhead belt drive using a car on blocks and the belt attached to the drive wheels, the engine would idle and the belts would turn. The rest is just gearing the belts (look at an old workshop from 1850-1920's), or a water wheel which is the easier method for reliable regular power. The rest would be having a patern to work from, or the broken item. What becomes hard for the community is the ammount you would produce. 'I want an M16, OK come back in a month.' The stocks you could produce from colapsable designs. Front grips could be shortened or produced like the old thompson submachine gun front pistol grip. You could also go down the recycle way. Barrels for the guns would be just about impossable to make to any high standard, it is not a normal steel (something about the carbon content), so I bars would not work. Unless you used a smooth bore design.

[Legbreaker]

What about plans? It's awfully hard to produce something as technical as an M16 without them.
Far better to stick with simpler designs with greater tolerances (such as the Sten or basic bolt action weapons) in the early years and rely on prewar supplies of the more advanced and complex systems such as belt fed machineguns, assault rifles and so on. Chances are ammunition isn't going to be all that available for the more complex weapons anyway...

[Targan]

What Leg said.

[kalos72]

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

[Legbreaker]

Generally yes.

[neuk]

This is more a case of making a gun, the mechanics is the same regardless of the weapon. If it is a case of not having the skill pool, then you would be taking a barrel of an existing but broken weapon. Then manufacturing a hammer system to fire it. These weapons would be single shot. But not as poor as a Zip gun.

There is little difference between the complexities of a bolt action and say a AK47 (I have left out the M16 because I agree it is a complex weapon) Having seen and stripped AKM’s they are SO simple, and used to ‘play’ with SMLE 7.62 Nato rifles (India conversion from British .303).

If you have the original item I believe any competent person with a set of decent hand tools could over time manufacture any item, using the original as your plan or pattern. History proves this time and time again, will it be as good as the original? No! Will it work most of the time yes, will it jam more often, not except new parts, brake at the worse time, of course. But that can be great fun as the GM to give the players kit that is dodgy at best.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by chico20854

In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

Great information, Chico. Thanks for doing the leg work. I feel obliged to point out that existing in a storage depot is not the same as widely available for use. Nevertheless, given the number of modern firearms available, I think one could easily make a case for any given organization having access to at least some kind of modern rifle--provided one is willing to trace the path of the weapons from storage to the hands of the owners. The list above includes two million rifles and carbines. This is a lot of hardware, but we should bear in mind that before the nukes fly there are 290 million (give or take) Americans. Setting aside stocks of weapons not destroyed because the Cold War didn't end, the above list is sufficient to provide roughly one American in every 149 or 150 with a modern rifle. Even if these rifles were evenly distributed across the nation, somebody is going to have to go without. Halving the population as of early 2001 doesn't solve the problem because this stockpile of weapons are going to suffer from its own types of attrition. Still, given the sheer numbers of rifles involved, I'd buy off on any well-considered explanation for how a militia gets hold of 1,000 modern rifles after the Exchange.

By the way, the numbers involved make it a lot easier for someone to claim that rifles were set aside during the July-November period in 1997. This is how Fort Huachuca gets most of its hardware. Surely Huachuca isn't the only place in the country where materiel was sent in the event that the worst occurred.

Webstral

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm of the impression that while the US government may have disposed of those weapons, some of the older designs (bolt-actions, semi-autos) where also sold to gunstores for civilian sales. What I'm trying to say is okay, so that's the number they destroyed but how many did they keep and what was the size of the original stockpile?

[Abbott Shaull]

Black powder guns would show up again. Granted not many people make guns the old way, there would be learning curve people would have to learn in making any type of fires arms. Communities that had resources would be able to support or at least add to their arsenal.

Also crossbows that big to fit on tri-pod and unusable, it would probably be better on simple trailer device similar to the 120mm mortar. Now large man portable crossbow could use bi-pod for would be more manageable to use. Anything heavy enough to mounted on the try pod would require several people to move, thus negating any mobility that one would need in order to field such weapons effectively, unless you plan on using this weapon more or less in fixed position.

Crossbows are slow in general. I know there was device found that was used like a magazine on modern rifle were use to speed thing up, but drawing the string back will still take time.

Now in defense, using crossbow, black powder weapons, or even single shot rifles/shotguns limitation can be negated some. Especially if have some extra hands that could reload/rearm the weapon while the shooter fires another round with second or third weapon, or at least pull the cross bow string back....

Honestly, I see regular bows and composite bows, being used more than crossbows for largely mobile forces (raiding force). Especially if they are up against a force with single shot weapons with no magazines.

[jester]

Atcualy under that son of a bitch kolintoon I hope his fuckin stints give out and he dies a horrible death. <yes I met the man and his wife more! Hate is a strong word, but not strong enough!> He ordered that all arms by Federal government that are not in use will be destroyed, rather than sold. There were no exceptions. That goes for military officers and others as well. So you could not have the option to purchase your service pistol that you had carried for an entire career. Same with Law Enforcement too.

And they would not be sold to the open market either! So, a good source of antique weapons in Gov stores like 30-40 Krags, 03 Springfields, M1 Garands and Carbines all get turned into scrap. Even though to sell them to civilians who would undergo a background check and give a decent source of money to the Federal Gov poof gone! What horsecrap! I can honestly say I would never take the oath of allegiance to the gov again. As Eithan Edwards said "A man can only be bound ta one oath at a time."

Yes, my hate is still strong after all these years, but it keeps me warm. And the "darkside" is a good life

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'm of the impression that while the US government may have disposed of those weapons, some of the older designs (bolt-actions, semi-autos) where also sold to gunstores for civilian sales. What I'm trying to say is okay, so that's the number they destroyed but how many did they keep and what was the size of the original stockpile?

The Army disposed of the firearms in three ways:

1) a large shredder at the Anniston Army depot, referred to as "Captain Crunch". Stocks were removed, weapons fed in, and scrap steel emerged.
2) foreign aid. The Estonian Army, for example, fielded M-16A1s marked "Property of US Government" in 2000. A lot of M-16s and M-14s went this way.
3) sales to individuals, through the Division/Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship (a part of the Army, which permitted a civilian to buy a single Garand after extensive marksmanship training & competition) until 1996, when it was spun off into a nonprofit organization, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). CMP reports that it and DCM distributed over 400,000 Garands from 1968 to present. Lots of those, however, were returned to the US Army after retirement by foreign militaries - they had been given as military aid and upon retirement were required to be returned to the U.S. The three most recent batches were returned from Denmark, the Greek Army and, most recently, 18,000 from the Greek Air Force, including several hundred still in the original factory wrapping. How many would be available in a T2k setting is unknown...

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kalos72

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

The general differences between the civilian and military versions are the propellant charge and the thickness of the case walls. Military ammunition generally is more powerful than its civilian counterpart due to the composition and amount of its propellant, and most civilian rifles are not actually stressed to fire it without causing damage to the rifle in the long term.

And of course, I will stress that this is a generalization, and like all else, is not always true.

[Legbreaker]

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

[jester]

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.