Currency

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Webstral

MilGov is in the same fix. Unless I miss my interpretation badly, the government is calling the shots in terms of economics, food distribution, etc. The Joint Chiefs, who led the fight against Communism, are now running a totalitarian regime. They allow local elections, but the real power is in the hands of folks no one elected. If there weren't already plenty to lose sleep over, this would keep the Joint Chiefs up at night.

"You may do everything with bayonets, except sit on them." - Lord Tallyrand, Foreign Minister to Napoleon.

While withholding food or supplies is one way to compel compliance (not to mention using force), it would also generates serious unrest. While one would think that a starving population would be compliant and unrest would be the last thing on their minds, it's really quite common, perhaps because they feel they have little or nothing to lose and no way to meaningfully redress the situation through peaceful means. Especially for Western Europeans and North Americans, who have a living memory of functioning liberal democracy and faced with a de facto or de jure military or civilian despotic regime. I would imagine that the CIA would have a field day destabilising the US military regime since the coup. It's practically their pre-war bread and butter!

Getting back to a currency, obviously barter is a major source of wealth transfer but it has some obvious problems. If you and the other party have what each other wants in the right amounts then it's simple; if you don't, then unless you walk away it gets complicated. You might be forced to make an unadvantageous trade, be stuck with possibly bulky goods you may or may not be able to unload later which you have to store in the mean time, etc.

While it seems counter-intuitive, I think that luxury goods like tobacco would therefore still be produced and traded due to a consistently high value, general portability and ease of storage (at least for small amounts). As well, because drug laws would be impossible to enforce in most areas, marijuana would be grown and traded.

As a rough estimate, I peg tobacco at something like $200/carton, with loose tobacco going at $140/200 grams in gold or equivalent trade. (This is basically a 20x mark-up from pre-war manufacturing prices before taxes/duties in British Columbia of roughly CAD$10.00/carton and $7.00/200 grams for fine-cut tobacco.) Pricing for pot is a little dicier, but I peg that at 5x-10x pre-war value as it's easier to grow than tobacco, so roughly CAD$50/gram (depending on quality, possible law enforcement, the value could be as high as $250/gram etc.) or $175 for an eighth.

Again, I don't see pot/tobacco as being an "official" currency for any faction but where there is no paper or gold, it would be a very useful adjunct for the barter economy. Plus, now players can actually specify something other than gold for their leftover starting allocation! (For those wussy games that start PCs with more than the clothes on their back and a knife in their teeth.)

Tony

[natehale1971]

I used the Military Script as an example of what kind of currency would be made by what ever kind of 'government' was in control. A type of plastic POGs are being used right now by the post and base exchanges in the US Armed Forces.

Military Script is Color-coded and can be of various sizes and even shapes to help keep from having counter-fitters have an easy time with making copies of the currency.

I've been looking for decent images of military script to make props for the game if i ever get to play it again.

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I used the Military Script as an example of what kind of currency would be made by what ever kind of 'government' was in control. A type of plastic POGs are being used right now by the post and base exchanges in the US Armed Forces.

Military Script is Color-coded and can be of various sizes and even shapes to help keep from having counter-fitters have an easy time with making copies of the currency.

I've been looking for decent images of military script to make props for the game if i ever get to play it again.

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...nt_Certificate
google images has a ton of good pics you could use.

[pmulcahy11b]

It would be a pain in the butt for the parties involved, but varying the size and/or shape and/or color of currency from time to time without warning might help with counterfeiting.

[helbent4]

Of all places, Cracked.com has an article on this subject:

"7 Bizarre Things (and 1 Bodily Fluid) People Use As Currency"

http://www.cracked.com/article_16709...ser4=flashback

Of interest is how bottle caps are used as currency in Cameroon, and how Canadian Tire money is used as a currency across Canada and occasionally the northern USA. One town in Columbia uses cocaine as money, and I believe that drugs will also be used for trading due to its value in many areas of North America and Europe. (For that matter I believe that the drug trade will be alive and well for many reasons.)

During the Great Depression some communities issued their own locally-backed scrip, and of course before then individual banks and companies issued scrip, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Bottle caps, while silly-seeming, have the advantage of being relatively rare (now) and not that easy to duplicate. A community might come across a store of them (seizing a local collection or stockpile) and issue them as a local scrip backed by some kind of guarantee. In Morrow Project, a team in one game issued a community scrip backed by Project resources (the contents of a local supply base and the team caches).

Tony

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

It would be a pain in the butt for the parties involved, but varying the size and/or shape and/or color of currency from time to time without warning might help with counterfeiting.

That's exactly what they did during Vietnam... C-Day, they'd pop the exchange on the soldiers so suddenly they didn't know it was coming.

C-days in Vietnam were always classified, never pre-announced. On C-day, soldiers would be restricted to base, preventing GIs from helping Vietnamese civilians--especially local bars, brothels, bar girls and other black market people--from converting old MPC to the newer style MPC. Since Vietnamese were not allowed to convert and frequently lost savings by holding old worthless MPC. Angry over their MPC loss, in retaliation, the nearest U.S. base was often rocketed or mortared the next night.

And it would fit great... especially if they find signs of counterfeiting going on, they'd launch a C-Day much faster. But knowing the military they'd have at least six series of MPC ready to go, just waiting to print the bloody things.

[natehale1971]

I've done a little checking, and with the economic downturn here in the US... there have been communities printing up their own localized scrip (they call coupons) that has been used to stimulate the local economy (used for local exchanges only).

In the T2k world I can see things like this going into effect for those out of the way communities that are able to become moderately self-sufficient. Especially if they are able to work out a form of trade of valuable materials (like gold or other trade goods, like whiskey or tobacco) that can be used with trade with outsiders. Thus the return of local 'Bank Notes' that are directly backed by Gold, Silver, Platinum and jewels...

This gives me an idea for something that would be in Morrow Project team caches.. Project Resource Vouchers that would be backed up with various valuables (medicines, food, gold, silver, whiskey, ect). This would go along way to reestablishing a economy not based directly on bartered trade.

[atiff]

A similar idea to 'community coupons' is the idea of (monetary) 'social credit'. You could do the 'community coupon' idea with no coupons, just with ledgers holding records of exchange. Gives a reason not to boot all the accountants out of your community, too

[Canadian Army]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Canadian Tire money is used as a currency across Canada and occasionally the northern USA.

I known people who accept for services and I know stores; other than Canadian Tire, who accept it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...ts_and_Figures



Thank You Sandy McTire

[natehale1971]

Sounds good.

There is plenty of examples of what could be used for currency. one of the guys i use to game with always joked about us coming across a community that actually used monopoly money (especially since one of the PCs carried his prized possession... a vintage Monopoly game, that the PCs played during 'down times' when we were not RPing their actions) as their currency.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Canadian Army

I known people who accept for services and I know stores; other than Canadian Tire, who accept it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadia...ts_and_Figures
[/url]

Thank You Sandy McTire

CA,

Not just Canadian businesses. Some American bars across the line will accept Canadian Tire money at par. This is more of a promotional situation, as these or other bars will also accept Canadian money at par (not such a big deal now, of course).

Tony

[natehale1971]

This actually gives me an idea... Does anyone remember about Company Towns (such as with Mining towns) that inspired the song "Sixteen Tons" that deal with 'I owe my Soul to the Company Store'?

Could something similar to this work in the T2K universe? Not with just a single company, but with all of the stores in a single company. The creation of a currency based on the number of hours you work (or will work). These could be filled out like Checks, that the holder could easily 'cash' by getting the person who filled it out to do said number of hours of work at a community farm, or other endeavor that the community (or private) enterprise is carrying out.

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

Credits.

[Canadian Army]

The Ithaca HOUR is a local currency used in Ithaca, New York and is the oldest and largest local currency system in the United States that is still operating. One Ithaca HOUR is valued at US$10 and is generally recommended to be used as payment for one hour's work, although the rate is negotiable. HOURS are printed on high-quality paper and use faint graphics that would be difficult to reproduce, and each bill is stamped with a serial number, in order to discourage counterfeiting. More can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours#Origin

[pmulcahy11b]

Doesn't the Constitution reserve the right to print currency for the federal government?

[natehale1971]

No... that's a major misconception.. Congress has the power to mint coins. The Federal Reserve isn't actually part of the Federal Government. Go figure.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

Nate,

As recently posted, this currency is called "scrip", and it has been in periodic use in the USA for a long time, including the Great Depression. I'll repost the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Company scrip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

Tony

[Raellus]

Barter seems to be the default form of commerce in every T2KU I've ever set virtual foot in. Although realistic, it can feel a bit cliché. Aside from barter, gold is most often mentioned in the published materials as a medium of exchange in the T2KU. But how many common people would have access to more than a couple of ounces of gold? This would go quickly in the post-collapse economy. The closest thing to modern currency that I can find is the ration chits mentioned in the Free City of Krakow. It's printed by the city government and used as payment for laborers in the city's service. It's also accepted as payment by many local merchants.

I'm not an economists, and I find most aspects of monetary theory quite baffling. I've heard modern currency described as a "globally accepted, mutually agreed-upon hallucination" and it's hard to argue with that. In other words, money only has value because we all agree that it does. This was brought home to me a few years ago while I was playing Fallout 3, in which the denizens of the game universe use bottle caps as money. There's no explanation given in the game- not that I came across, anyway- as to why people attach any sort of value to said caps, but, in the game world, they're universally accepted as a medium of exchange.

Feudal Japan is a periodic interest of mine. In the original Shogun: Total War computer game, one's clan measures its annual income in Koku, a unit representing the amount of rice that can feed one person per year. A system like this would make sense in many parts of the T2KU, where food is an incredibly sought-after commodity. I'm not sure how it would translate into a widely used currency system, though. Is this the "food standard" as the "gold standard"?

In the T2KU, there aren't many central governments with the power and resources to issue and regulate paper money. Would forms of currency only work on a very local level? Could one exchange Krakow ration chits for paper currency issued by the Lublin government and vice-versa? Would different polities accept others' money? Without central banks, who would determine the exchange rates?

I feel really ignorant- I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this idea. I'm hoping that a few of you understand this better than me and can explain it well enough to help me get there.

How do you see currency making a comeback in T2K? Has anyone here put any thought/work into this? If so, I'd love to look at what you've come up with.

[SionEwig]

Yes, I think that "currency" in some form not too dissimilar to what we have now would make a come back. Maybe not extremely fast, but it would make a come back. Probably at first more like the Krakow ration chits, where it is backed by some form of food. I remember some PA short story that one state level sucessor government had "corn bucks" which represented some amount of corn (I'll try and find the title). Other things that the temporary currency could be backed by might include ammunition, salt, equipment, or other commodities. Wasn't there something like that in one of the episodes of Jericho? There was something like this (local chits for various things) in a PA book titled Among Madmen if my memory is serving me correctly. Later the chits/credits/whatever it's called might be backed or represent an amount of labor. But most of these currencys would need to be backed by something. Only later would fiat currency make a come back and only once people had a trust of the issuer.

Yes, I think that such backed local currencys would be accepted, after a while, in other places, probably at a discount and only of course from places that had earned a reputation for honoring their currency.

Just a few things on gold as currency. The majority of the gold "currency" would probably be in the form of jewelry. That's how most people encounter (and own) gold. I think that a lot of businesses would have scales, and probably use grams as the unit of measure. The jewelry could evn be broken or damaged, but would generally need to have the proof mark still visible. The actual coins and ingots would probably be well accepted and more valuable, but also more rare.

Also, silver would be much more common for use as currency than gold. Lots more folks have some, maybe a lot of sterling (.925) jewelry, and more than a fair number have at least a few silver coins around (at least in the US). For that matter, you can still come across silver coins in change from stores and banks. I usually come across around 4 coins a year in loose change, and when I go seriously looking for them from banks will find 10 to 20 (40%) half dollars a year.

[Targan]

Ammunition was used extensively as currency in my last T2K campaign, at least by the PCs. They'd trade calibers they little or no use for to obtain either ammo they could use, or other goods such as decent quality food.

This wasn't quite as standardised as in Metro 2033, mind, but at least in areas where ammunition was still to be had, I can see it making a very useful "currency" of sorts.

[kato13]

Currency will have to develop. I don't know the rate or exactly how it would be standardized, but trade would demand portable currency.

Perhaps every local currency will be valued in relation to the French Franc.

The French would certainly still have paper currency.

A franc could have half its value in the areas just east of the Dead Zone and perhaps a similar amount in Krakow. The value elsewhere would depend on how easy it is to reach the French borders or French territories.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Originally Posted by Raellus

But how many common people would have access to more than a couple of ounces of gold?

Diamonds would also likely be a form of currency.

[SionEwig]

Originally Posted by Silent Hunter UK

Diamonds would also likely be a form of currency.

Other gemstones also. The only problem would be knowing what stones are "real" and which are fake.

[Raellus]

Agreed on diamonds and gemstones. We're not looking at a very high-volume in circulation, though, so although they would be widely-accepted, they wouldn't be widely/frequently used on a day-to-day basis.

Ammunition might work but not everyone would want ammunition. It's essentially a barter item, which relies on the double coincidence of wants, where both parties want/need the item that the other is offering for trade. In the T2KU, ammo would have value, but not to everybody. Although folks with weapons or who deal regularly with such folks might value ammo as currency, others who don't likely would not. Currency is a universally accepted medium of exchange.

The Franc is an interesting idea. I think it would see fairly widespread use in regions bordering France (or French colonies) but I don't see it being used much beyond that. Poland, for example, is too far away from the issuer/guarantor/regulator. Maybe after a few years, if France does indeed become the major power in Europe but not really until.

I don't know much about Wampum, but shell beads were used as a kind of fiat currency by Native Americans and Dutch traders in the New Holland area in early colonial times. There was even an exchange rate between Wampum and Dutch coinage. What could be the Wampum of the Twilight world?

[kato13]

France wants to be a major power.

I can see them sending Agents/Ambassadors to regions of stability (like Krakow) and trying to facilitate regular trade with those regions. Trading local script for francs would increase France influence.

One of the reasons the US is a major economic power is that most countries currently use the US dollar for transactions. (Though BRIC is trying to change that)

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by kato13

I can see them sending Agents/Ambassadors to regions of stability (like Krakow) and trying to facilitate regular trade with those regions. Trading local script for francs would increase France influence.

I can definitely see this happening in the long run, but, IMO, this probably wouldn't occur for at least a couple of years after 2000. There's just too much chaotic and/or disputed territory between France and Krakow for routine trade to be an option. Some serious regional stabilization would be required before long-distance trade could safely/reliably take place. In the meantime, would the Franc have value in, for example, Krakow? I can see savvy, long-sighted individuals there wanting to accumulate Francs as a long-term investment, but would most common people eking out a meager living in the Krakow food-for-labor economy attach much, if any, value to the currency of a far-away polity with which there is infrequent (at best) contact? I don't think so. In the case of Krakow, I'm not sure what the city state would be able to offer in return.

[kato13]

Distance is a key factor.

Since I happen to have all the Units databased the closest French unit to Krakow is the 6th Armored Division which is 831km (516 miles) away from Krakow in Worms Germany.

The Swiss border is 779.5 Km (484 miles) from Krakow

These are pretty significant distances, but T2k has merchant convoys everywhere so I can certainly see Francs moving around.

Perhaps outside of France the Franc loses 33% of its value immediately. (You have to have access to the border).

Then maybe it loses 33% of its remaining value per 3 days travel distance (120 miles??) to someone willing to trade.

This is where I see France really trying to establish some type of money trading in settled areas. If you have multiple points where someone can feel confident of a good trade the value of the Franc shoots up over large swaths of territory.

I know it does not explain trade fully in 2000, but maybe the seeds are being established during that time.

[simonmark6]

I would still make a case for gold and silver.

They have been recognised as having value for thousands of years and there is still enough in circulation to mean that people would have some when the world went into the crapper. It's relatively easy to discover if it is real or not and very easy to transport.

Much will depend on what value is attached to it although the same holds doubly for paper money. If you tag an ounce of silver at one day's food, an ounce of gold is usually valued at 60 times higher so a family with only a couple of ounces of gold would still be able to buy 120 days of food with it.

Humans need some sort of option other than barter if we are going to trade effectively and gold and silver seem to fit the bill better than some existing currency. Currencies only hold value because a government backs it. If you are in Krakow during 2000, a franc is just paper because it is next to impossible to see how France could back up the promissory note in any effective way. Gold and silver on the other hand are tangible and have a perceived intrinsic value.

True, a starving hunter is unlikely to give up his gun for whatever amount of bullion you offer him, but neither is h going to sell it for a fistful of francs. A merchant or farmer on the other hand seems to me to be more likely to trade goods of bullion than a paper note from a country over a thousand miles and three hostile armies away.

I don't see a problem with using gold and silver as a fairly universal currency until enough places get organised enough to be trusted as currencies in other areas.

[kato13]

Found a prior thread with some food for thought

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...light=currency

It covers military and local scripts, Web's use of kilocalories, and bullion and junk silver.

[Raellus]

Nice. I did a forum and thread map/archive search for currency but missed this. Merge completed.

I don't think there's no case for gold, I just think that by 2000, most average citizens will have spent most of their gold (i.e. jewelry, family silver service, etc.) on basic necessities like food, shelter, protection, etc. Therefore, dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with, but your average citizen will still have very little, if any. As a result, something else is needed for use as currency. That's my reasoning, at least. My question is what will be used?