The location of the Pope during the Twilight War

[Legbreaker]

I rather doubt anything above ground could be trusted to ensure the Pope's survival. EMP is a bitch especially when applied to complex machinery such as aircraft.

While the shelter and underground rail options are plausible, in my opinion the best, safest option is simply not to be there in the first place. Perhaps a double was used in the last few weeks/months and the Pope "telecommuted" from a much safer location elsewhere on the globe?

The Pope, and the church in general are certainly not nuclear targets in and of themselves, but the Vatican is in a rather vulnerable position being located in the capital of one of the major belligerents. While not exactly a huge issue in WWII, the exponential increase in destructive potential of weapons 50 years later is something else entirely.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I rather doubt anything above ground could be trusted to ensure the Pope's survival. EMP is a bitch especially when applied to complex machinery such as aircraft.

While the shelter and underground rail options are plausible, in my opinion the best, safest option is simply not to be there in the first place. Perhaps a double was used in the last few weeks/months and the Pope "telecommuted" from a much safer location elsewhere on the globe?

The Pope, and the church in general are certainly not nuclear targets in and of themselves, but the Vatican is in a rather vulnerable position being located in the capital of one of the major belligerents. While not exactly a huge issue in WWII, the exponential increase in destructive potential of weapons 50 years later is something else entirely.

It makes me wonder that if the Pope had been in Rome when the nukes started to fly that they would have just moved the Pope to the bomb shelter and sealed it up. Waited until after the rads died down enough (and checked to make sure the subterranean rail was still functioning) and get him out then.

[Snake Eyes]

I originally went with Switzerland but I really think at the first sign of nukes, the pontiff would be moved by submarine to his secret hollowed-out volcano lair.

At least that's how I'd play it.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

I originally went with Switzerland but I really think at the first sign of nukes, the pontiff would be moved by submarine to his secret hollowed-out volcano lair.

At least that's how I'd play it.

That gets my vote for sure!

While not changing my vote from Switzerland to relocating within Italy, there's nothing to say the Papacy could not move around.

The Pope could be evacuated by helicopter, because even civilians ones can be hardened for EMP or simply use a very old model. Possibly to Switzerland for a short period. Fallout is something that could be dealt with in that time (it's very short-lived), and the Swiss are quire knowledgeable about the hazards. Worldwide communications would be possible using radio; although EMP is a considerable hazard it's not insurmountable and some kind of papal bunker would at least have spare radio sets and comms equipment. It's not like there wasn't enough warning!

Afterwards, he could relocate to Perugia once the Vatican is re-established there. If Venice is the only non-nuked city, it's hard to see why the Vatican wouldn't relocate there. As for the man, if he dies with Rome, another pope would be chosen.

I do like the possibilities in having the Pope's body tour Poland. I could also see the French providing logistical support or transportation to gain favour with the world-wide church. As well, a relocation to the USA for some reason is interesting but not likely-seeming.

Tony

[firewalker]

dang ya know I’ve been kind of poking away at this for years know (show's me about keeping up with the boards) if i can find the time from work I’ll see if i can through something more thought out up here.

Till thin i got a couple of quick questions. We have some canon on Italy not real detailed about what’s happening during the war true but what's happening in Switzerland?

Also i wonder if we could do with a little more of a time line in regards to this poll.

1.the start of the war and it's build up to true twilight war (nuk escalation primarily). At first not that deferent than standard business with an increasing amount of politics of the "encouraging peace" type.

2.the lat stage grind. primarily the bit just before and right round the last grate push before the final calapas of the ability to support modern cvilation. Same as every body else stay alive and maintain as much functionality as possible.

3.aftermath (standard game setting). assessment and rebuilding especially of the churches communications ability’s. one thing this could defiantly included if the holy father has passed is an attempt to gather enough cardinals to hold a conclave.

[natehale1971]

There was a movie on Scy-fy (why the hell did they change it from Sci-Fi, i don't know) that had James Brolin in it as a father of two sons who were salvaging cities that were now under water due to the rising water levels that was putting most of the world under the sea.

The reason i bring this up, was the fact the Vatican was located at 'New Rome' (up on the higher ground near the original Rome) with the new Vatican compound able to look down on the Bay of Rome where the old Vatican was still under water...

The new Vatican had as much of the old Vatican feel that they could get. Not just the Swiss Guard in their distinctive uniforms, and architecture that looks so much like the original. I don't know where the monestaries or historically significant locations in the Roman Catholic church. But places like this, would definitely be possible evacuation locations of not only the Pope... but other members of the church leadership.

And we have to look at the kinds of things the church would be doing to help survivors get back up on their feet. The Church would be a good thing for communities to rally around, and it would be one of the things the Church leadership would know and try to use.

The church would more than likely be the FIRST to get a stable communications network set up... namely because the church has proven itself excellent at setting these up.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

And we have to look at the kinds of things the church would be doing to help survivors get back up on their feet.

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

[natehale1971]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

I think they would... having people who are able to feed themselves, means that they will be able to give extra to the church to feed the church leaders or even send it to other communities to help them get back on their feet.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

The church would more than likely be the FIRST to get a stable communications network set up... namely because the church has proven itself excellent at setting these up.

And (hopefully) nobody is shooting at them all the time...

[firewalker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Up on their feet, implying of course that is where they want them to be.

Why not even with a full dose of cynicism the deference between well feed organized powerful followers and a rabble of starving defenseless sad sacs is pretty easy? Even if were talking about the dud that look's around at his 100 loyal shooters and decides he wants’ to be pope (as well as secretary general of the UN and prince of the moon while he’s at it) is probley going to won’t to build up his "resources".

Any way there's a couple of things to keep in mind about the organization of the Catholic Church (some of this would also probley apply to other NGO typ's) first of its actually fairly decentrized at lest in a lot of the nut's and bolt’s type of things that would be mostly of interest to PC. Bishops and cardinals are generally in charge of there own arrears with the hiarcy providing an avenue for resource sharing and off course doctrinarian over site and frankly the last isn't going to be having much effect on the PC (even if your running a catholic PC group). Think of the pope more as a source of basic policy direction and final arbitrator.

That being said there is a level above which ONLY the pope can do things. For example no pope no new bishops/cardinals even the ability of bishops to ordain regular priests is in fact done in the name of the pope.

So a church with a sitting pope, John Paul or who ever would be (depending on the point in the timeline)

1.reastabling communication among dioceses and parshirs. This would also included providing pastoral care (priests and deacons) to places with out.

2.using the rebuilt network to agine shear recourses across dioceses in aid of the church aim's


Were as a church with out a sitting pope (almost surely do to John Paul's death) would be.

1.atimpting to gather enough cardinals (there is a specific quorum requirement) for a conclave. Also indecently thay are going to want the prelates of the non-roman right's there if possible as well.

2. sucuring and escorting the new pope (assuming he an't there) to were ever he wants to be. as an aside there's nothing that say's somebody has to be in attendance at the conclave to be raised to the papacy....in fact the only actual requirement is that he be a confermind adult catholic (of any rite).


On a slightly related note what about the Dalie lama (sp?) ? On one hand Tibet is by default free (China not really existing as such anymore) however “free” probley dose mean more likely in anarchy.

[mikeo80]

Along the lines of JPII visiting various parts of Europe when the balloon goes up....

What if JPII, The Dali Lama, ArchBishop of Cantebury, and others were meeting in Switzerland (Nice, neutral country). Trying to calm everyones nerves. The Balloon goes up. Now the scurry as the various prelates, their security and the Swiss Army all try to secure the safety of these religious leader. Inject a team of Russian Spetznatz to try to decapitate the various religions mentioned. Followed by a team of American Delta, British SAS, and who knows who else to "save the day". Heck even the Mossad might come to the party.

I would think this kind of "keystone cop" scenerio would devolve into a major shoot em up in the middle of Geneva. And Just where ARE the various religious leaders???

Another two cents

Mike

[Legbreaker]

My understanding is that organised religion was heavily suppressed in the USSR. As they were the major partner (only one with any actual power really), I don't see religious leaders being in a position to apply any influence of note on the PACT. They would though hold significant sway on the west in my opinion, sway which while well intended, could interfere with the political preparations required for effective war-making.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by mikeo80

What if JPII, The Dali Lama, ArchBishop of Cantebury, and others were meeting in Switzerland...

Sounds like a set up for an off-color joke.

Seriously, though, it's a really interesting idea and it has a nice edge of plausibility. I wonder what they would do once the the war went nuclear and it became clear that their appeals were falling on deaf ears.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I wonder what they would do once the the war went nuclear and it became clear that their appeals were falling on deaf ears.

Duck and cover? Or just fall to their knees and pray?

Taking all the religious leaders out in one hit could result in a seriously nasty religious war that would put the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades and all the various Jihad's put together to shame.

[mikeo80]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

My understanding is that organised religion was heavily suppressed in the USSR. As they were the major partner (only one with any actual power really), I don't see religious leaders being in a position to apply any influence of note on the PACT. They would though hold significant sway on the west in my opinion, sway which while well intended, could interfere with the political preparations required for effective war-making.

What you say is very true. IRL, the USSR tried to become an non-religious country.... However, The Russian Orthodox Church was still alive and well during all of those years. Yes, the leaders I mentioned would have little or no influence on the Kremlin in T2K, the Primate of Moscow had a behind the scean voice that had to be acknowledged.

I do not think that anything JPII or any other religious leader said would interfere with the NATO prep for battle.

(The old joke, from Stalin I think, How many divisions does the Pope have?)

Mike

[Legbreaker]

It wouldn't interfere significantly on the military prep, but it would on the Politicians.
If/when the church was to throw in their two cents, any politician who wanted to stay in government would have to listen and act accordingly. The religious vote is powerful - take the US bible belt for example. What percentage of the population there is going to be listening to the Pope and other religious figures in preference to the politicians and Generals.
Once the ball was rolling though I doubt the church would have a lot of influence, but they'd be major factors in the time leading up to the decision to deploy. They might even have influence over the timeframes and manpower involved in the deployment.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

It wouldn't interfere significantly on the military prep, but it would on the Politicians.
If/when the church was to throw in their two cents, any politician who wanted to stay in government would have to listen and act accordingly. The religious vote is powerful - take the US bible belt for example. What percentage of the population there is going to be listening to the Pope and other religious figures in preference to the politicians and Generals.
Once the ball was rolling though I doubt the church would have a lot of influence, but they'd be major factors in the time leading up to the decision to deploy. They might even have influence over the timeframes and manpower involved in the deployment.

The Bible Belt in the US is mostly Southern Baptist with sizable groups of Methodist and Pentatcostal (I know, my spelling sucks). The large Catholic areas are Louisiana, southern Mississippi, southern Alabama and Florida. This area has several military bases, as well as arsenals and ammunition plants. Its more likely that the area would go for MilGov or CivGov rather than PopeGov...

[Legbreaker]

Meh, whatever, but I'm sure you get my point. Religion (not just the Pope and the Catholic church) has influence to varying degrees all over the world. Might not directly impact on military matters, but it's going to be heavily intertwined in the political (despite what the US consitution may say).

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Meh, whatever, but I'm sure you get my point. Religion (not just the Pope and the Catholic church) has influence to varying degrees all over the world. Might not directly impact on military matters, but it's going to be heavily intertwined in the political (despite what the US consitution may say).

Leg,

I see what you're getting at. I don't see a separate religious government, the Catholic Church doesn't really work that way (any more) except perhaps where there is literally no government at all. Most of the time they would simply support whatever government was in place. Pushing for social or political justice isn't completely foreign to the Church (although that tends to be a lower-level thing) but it's not like they haven't cooperated or supported with military juntas or other corrupt regimes in the past.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

(Remembering the picture in Ogre Miniatures where an Ogre Mk V is wearing the insignia of the Vatican.)

What are the capabilities of the Swiss Guards?

[Raellus]

I could see religious/military orders of marshal clergy popping up after the balloon goes up. Some conspiracy theorists see conservative blocs in the RCC like Opus Dei as capable of setting up such a thing. Perhaps you would even have armed factions within the Catholic fold- left-leaning liberation theologist backed groups and right-leaning Opus Dei backed groups. IN-fighting could be a real possibility.

I had one PC in my PbP (Brother Switek played by Snakeyes) who was a former monk turned CIA-backed partisan leader and an NPC, called the Bishop (so named for the chess piece), who was a former Polish Para before joining a monastic order before the war only to later become Gora-Kalwaria's militia commander in '98 or so.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by helbent4

I don't see a separate religious government...

I'm not in any way advocating that there would be any type of religious government. All I am saying is that religion, both individuals and organisations, will apply political pressure on the various governments to act in a certain way.
This pressure will be more or less effective depending on where in the world it's going on - for example, Islam is going to have a MASSIVE input on policy and actions in Iran while Christianity, specifically Roman Catholism will be behind many of the decisions made in Italy. Over in the Far east, Buddism will shape events while up in the backwoods you might find a cult or three exerting influence on the local authorities.

Industry will also have similar clout with some governments - take the various lobby groups in the US for example. Note that just having money might be enough to exert influence in some countries, provided it's spread around and fills a few otherwise empty pockets.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I could see religious/military orders of marshal clergy popping up after the balloon goes up. Some conspiracy theorists see conservative blocs in the RCC like Opus Dei as capable of setting up such a thing. Perhaps you would even have armed factions within the Catholic fold- left-leaning liberation theologist backed groups and right-leaning Opus Dei backed groups. IN-fighting could be a real possibility.

We could get real weird and have the Illuminati revive as an order, determined to preserve knowledge and rebuild civilization -- their image of civilization, of course.

[Legbreaker]

I just had a thought - the 10th Crusade with the Church armed with nukes!

A thousand years later and they're back.
If Christianity can't have the holy land, then nobody will!

Sounds like a really bad movie promo....
Lets get Mel Gibson to play the leading role.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

(Remembering the picture in Ogre Miniatures where an Ogre Mk V is wearing the insignia of the Vatican.)

What are the capabilities of the Swiss Guards?

They fulill two roles, they are the bodyguards of the Pope and the ceremonial guard of the Vatican.

They are never seen without the Michaelangelo-designed uniforms and halbreds/swords. But there is a lot of speculation about what is behind the scenes. Some of the requirements is that the Swiss Guard have served in the military, they must be Catholic and they swear an oath directly to the Pope.

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I just had a thought - the 10th Crusade with the Church armed with nukes!

A thousand years later and they're back.
If Christianity can't have the holy land, then nobody will!

Sounds like a really bad movie promo....
Lets get Mel Gibson to play the leading role.

Sort of Mad Max/We were Soldiers meets the Passion...weird and scary!!!

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

I wonder what kind of firearms they use... Italian, Swiss, or other?

This discussion has been really interesting. There is a lot of food here for a pretty kick-ass module. Let's start with the factions...

The Pope and his loyal circle (including the Swiss guards)
Anti-papal members of the clergy
A shadowy Catholic secret society (Illuminati? Opus Dei? Other?) with unclear motives
Anti-church Italian military (leftists)
Pro-church Italian military
The French (DGSE, FFL commandos)
Soviets (KGB, GRU, Spetznaz)

You could throw in some Austrians, Jugolsavs, U.S. pro-CivGov forces in Jugoslavia... I'm sure there's even more.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

They fulill two roles, they are the bodyguards of the Pope and the ceremonial guard of the Vatican.

They are never seen without the Michaelangelo-designed uniforms and halbreds/swords. But there is a lot of speculation about what is behind the scenes. Some of the requirements is that the Swiss Guard have served in the military, they must be Catholic and they swear an oath directly to the Pope.

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

Guardsmen are usually catholic german speaking young men from swiss countryside. They have normal swiss military training (conscription). Guardsmen are real soldiers even if they have lots of seremonial guarding duties. They use those fancy uniforms only on seremonial duties (armed with halberd and pepper spray). Yes they do have modern weapons, uniforms and equipment they just wont like to show them.

Life in switzerland is very boring and most people are very conservative. Joining swiss guard can be very vise choice if you dont want live very dull life in swiss farm or if you dont want boring customer service job from the nearest town or city.

You can meet swiss volunteers nearly anywhere in this planet. Swiss army is purely defensive force for defending Switzerland and its impossible to serve abroad.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Sort of Mad Max/We were Soldiers meets the Passion...weird and scary!!!

"We were clergy once, and mad"?

[Legbreaker]

A cross in one hand and grenade launcher in the other, he's "THE CONVERTER"!
Don't let the robes fool you...