Alternative Fuels

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by headquarters

thanks -lots of useful info here -for RL and ingame.

Theres a differance? I have found a LOT of useful RL information doing game research. I'm STILL trying to find consumptions for steam trains. I have some but again, lost them. (I HATE moving around!) Anyone have some sources I would love to have them. I realize there are numerous variable when it comes to that, more than with internal combustion, but relevance is the name. I do know it takes from 2-4 times as much water as fuel, and water sources are sometimes more difficult to get than the solid fuel, since you need CLEAN water, with LOW mineral content or your going to spend more time cleaning the boiler from buildup than running.

(some more useful trivia?)

Grae

[Brother in Arms]

As for Gasogene

I used to be a blacksmith, but I didn't have a good supply of blacksmith coal and I was too poor to have it shipped to me. I tried using other types of coals but with poor results. However my now ex-girlfriends father had a saw mill with lots of wood scraps from the process, so I built a charcoal maker.

Very primitive in design..but it was a 55 gallon drum with a bunch of holes shot through it for air. It also had a old wheel hub from a truck in the center of it which the fire was built around. I built the fire using the waste slab wood from the mill, old news papers for kindling and spoiled heating oil from a freind who was a furnace repair man. while the fire was going I would pack more wood tightly into a 30 gallon grease drum (which had been power washed). Once the fire was going well I would place a 30 gallon grease drum on the fire and it sat on top of the old truck wheel hub. The grease drum had no holes except for it had a nail hole in its tightly sealing top. I would continue to add slabs into the oil drum as the fire burned down. As the wood in the grease drum was burned without allowing oxygen (or destructively distilled) it turned the wood into charcoal. All the while dark brownish to greenish grey smoke would pour out the hole in the lid. If the lid was actually airtight it would have blown off. However if you took a burning splint and put it to the smoke it would ignite and burn about 3 inches off the top of the hole in the barrel like a propane gas pilot.

My ex's dad was a small engine repair man and he always wanted to try to trap and pressurize the gas much like they do with methane gas using an inverted cone in a concrete tube with water above it. As the gas pressure increases the cone rises and eventually the gas will condensate at the right pressure into a liquid where it can be tapped off much like LNG.

However it never got more advanced than a simple charcoal maker.

Brother in Arms

[Graebarde]

Great info Bro,
Necessity works wonders for ingenuity. Thinking on that project for charcoal, it makes wonderful sense, and simplicity is awesome. As fro trapping the gas, a copper line from the hole to the storage unit. If your doing pine, you can also distill the gas for wood spirits (turpintine), or so I've heard.

Sounds like a realatively quick set up too after scrounging the materials. Hard part is chopping the wood. And for practical purposes your smithing fuel becomes free.

BTW how long would it take to char a can of wood? And how much fuel was used to char the can?

You also realize other than for smithing, this is the first step for black powder production.

Grae
(a guy who admires primative and obsolete technology)

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

You also realize other than for smithing, this is the first step for black powder production.

Great point Grae.

[Brother in Arms]

Grae
it was relatively easy to get set up my ex's dad had everything I needtd on site of course he did live in a junk yard.

As for time it took several hours to char a 30 gallon can completely. There is a lot of moisture, wood alcohol ect. that has to be burned off in a piece of wood to turn it into charcoal. As for how much charcoal it made, it made a full 50 lbs grain bag. I can't really say how much is weighed because it was very light for the volume of charcoal you obtained. One thing to note is the fire had to be completely burned out cold before you could open the charcoal barrel. In fact I would let the fire in the drum burn out completely then remove the char coal barrel from it and make sure it was completely cold before opening which took several hours. The reason for this is I had made char cloth before (for catching sparks when making flint and steel fires) and if you open the tin or in this case the barrel too soon the charcoal is still super heated and exposure to air would cause it to burst into flame!

I tried several woods, pine burned very hot but cracked and snapped relentlessly. Hard wood didn't snap or and was denser charcoal so I think it put out more BTU overall but the pine put out heat faster so I would use the pine to get the hardwood charcoal going in my forge. As for gunpowder I thought about making it but the best charcoal for that is willow or alder wood and I didn't have any of that around.

I also bought manufactured natural charcoal at the hardware store and it coast about $15 per 25 lbs bag. But since I had all the free wood scraps around and my ex's dad was a bit of a tinkerer it worked out great.

I am now thinking of making a new blacksmith shop after a long hiatus in blacksmithing but instead of charcoal make a Natural gas forge and convert it to methane! Many blacksmiths now use propane forges but as I might be living on a farm soon and I thought building a methane digester for horse waste would be a great idea and convert a propane forge to methane. The major difference is the size of the gas apertures.

But we shall see I am not sure where I am going to end up at this point.

Brother in Arms

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Hello

Here is the link to it

http://solsys-ap.ifrance.com/

I think they have done a great job but saddly it's only in French. I prefer T2K but they have an interesting different approach. I haven't read everything but they seem to be somewhere between T2K and a french novel (about 40 books or so) called "la compagnie des glaces". I haven't found a translation of the title.

Are there electronic versions? If so, there may be hope of using a computer program to have them translated, at least to the point where one gets the gist of it.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Theres a differance? I have found a LOT of useful RL information doing game research. I'm STILL trying to find consumptions for steam trains. I have some but again, lost them. (I HATE moving around!) Anyone have some sources I would love to have them. I realize there are numerous variable when it comes to that, more than with internal combustion, but relevance is the name. I do know it takes from 2-4 times as much water as fuel, and water sources are sometimes more difficult to get than the solid fuel, since you need CLEAN water, with LOW mineral content or your going to spend more time cleaning the boiler from buildup than running.

(some more useful trivia?)

Grae

since there is a char in our campaign who controls an armoured train this is rather interesting news.For the moment he is in the northwest ,but should he decide to travel to a drier spot hehehe..

[Graebarde]

Thanks for the info Bro. I'll be interested in hearing how the methane forge goes. I would think it would work for heating as well as, or nearly so, as propane. We used propane for most of our hot iron work, but because it was quick to get going and shut down for smaller projects. IF we had a bigger one, we called my uncle to do it on his forge. That man was very good with metals. He welded a broken head off a cast iron hydraulic ram on. Took him almost two weeks I guess, and he slept by the forge between jobs. Saved the county big bugs, it was in the 30's. Don't know if you've worked cast iron, but he knew the heating tricks. If I could be 10th as good as he was.. ah well.


And for the train water. I helped demolish a water purification plant on the Great Northern (no BNSF) back in summer of 66. The had to treat all the water for the steam engines. It was an interesting job. I recall 'collecting' some interesting maps and papers from the office. The place hadn't been used in over ten years when we went into tear it down, board by board. HARDWOOD T&G walls and floors, with TWO tanks that held 30000 gallons each easy made from T&G redwood. The RR spared no expense when the plant was built back sometime before WW1. But like I said, water is the key element to steam operations. Good water, which is hard to find. I do know enough chemistry to know the minerals can be percolated off with addition of other chemicals, but dang if I can remember what those other chemicals are.

Head scratching,
later,
Grae

[Mohoender]

I haven't read everything again on this post. Sorry if I'm giving a bad type of info or repeating someone else saying.

However, I have seen Grae talking about diesel and alcohol and that interested me: it can't work. However, diesel engine were designed for heavy oil and they would work on any type of oil (from arachid to olive). You can put about 50% of vegetable oil in any diesel engine and 100% if you can attached some eating device on it.

About Gazogene, the last info I had is that are used again. Older model type are still workable and they would use coal, wood, or anything that can burnt. However, you need some time to start the engine. Newer models are fun so; they use specific type of wood and are more expensive to run than gas vehicles.

Nice point about Methane, every town and city could burry their trashes and get some.

[Graebarde]

http://www.krykiet.com/polish_steam.htm

This is a link I stumbled across in my quest to find the fuel consumption data for steam trains (yes Virginia I love steam operations, be they rail, water (though I prefer sail on water) or tractive motors (tractors as used in agriculture and lumbering)). Anyway it brought to mind the Going Home module where they have a train in it. It is now 2008 RL and they are still using steam power on this section of rail in northwestern Poland. What a grand scheme I can think of for playing that our.

Grae
lover of 'obsolete' technology

PS. didn't know where to put this, didn't think it really deserved a new thread.

[Graebarde]

I have managed to find some figures finally. One publication I found on line and managed to get a .pdf of deals with steam operations of all nature is Steam Engines by Ludy, dated 1913. According to his works, at the 1901 St Louis Exposition they tested several steam engines of the period. He's quoted as saying one pound of coal will evaporate one gallon of water. Now it takes some math as there are varibles, such as the load pulled of course and grades etc, but it come out simple (vs. compound type steam engines) freight engines used about 24 pounds of water per engine hp per hour, which would be three pounds of coal at the 8:1 ratio. Passenger engines used a bit less at about 21 pounds of water. Compound engines use about 1-3 pounds of water less for the same operation (more effecient).

I also found a site where they have a restored 4-8-2 "Mountain" of Frisco heritage. It is oil fired with Bunker C oil (#6 Fuel). This engine is about 3600 hp at the rails, with a tractive effort of 56800 pounds. It uses 100 gallons of water and 14 gallons of oil per MILE. The tender for this carries 4500 gal. of fuel oil and 11700 gallons of water. The engine boiler holds an addtional 4000 gallons of water. They also have an auxillary tender for water that hols 13000 gallons since the water towers of old that use to be every 50 miles or so are long gone. He also stated on the site that they have to stop and service the engine ever 125 miles or so, that is greasing and oiling. It takes the better part of an hour for a large crew (not the two man engine crew, but a service crew) to do the lube job.

For diesel-electrics I found some information in military manuals on line (and they are more current than the ones I have in storage by a generation LOL). For DE they use a planning figure of 2.5 gallons per mile or 11 gallons an hour in light load (such as switchers which sit a lot).

So, rail is thirsty, but the ton-miles per gallon beat the pants off trucks. An EMD GP38-2 2000 hp DE can pull a 1300 ton train at 10 mph. Note there is an inverse relationship to tractive effort and speed. As speed increases the amount you pull lowers, so the 1300 tons at 10 mph, will only be in the neighborhood of 4-500 tons at 30 mph or so. However that too has many variables such as rolling resistance due to track condition and wheel bearings, as well as controling grade and curvature, and weather.

But a 1300 ton train made up of say 25 cars grossing 50 tons (25 of it cargo), would be the same as 40 trucks. A truck can haul 20 tons, but since we are using the reduced tonnage in the train (it usually cubes out before it weights out) Lets make the need to haul it 100 miles for easy figuring. Train uses 250 gallons of fuel (2.5 gallons/mile), travels 10 mph and makes one trip. The 40 trucks will burn about 16 gallons each at 6 mpg, for total of 640 gallons of fuel to move the same cargo the same distance. Yes they can make two trips in the time it takes to make one for the train, BUT at what cost.

Now this brings me to the next question. BOTH vehicles can burn vegetable oil with minor problems, the train easier than the trucks btw since they already have preheaters which most trucks do not unless they run up north. As previously mentioned (at least I think I did) soybeans yielding 40 bushels of beans yielding 25% oil will provide 75 gallons of SBO. In post TDM, figure yields of about half if you're lucky.

Another side note on fuel consumptions. The planning figures I looked at, and have been for over 30 years, show a heavy division uses about 600,000 gallons of JP8 a DAY! That's nearly 8000 acres of soybeans to keep ONE division moving ONE day. So you can see, unless you can really get ramped up and fast, armies will be back to muscle-powered movement more so than even the canon depicts. Pwesonally I think it would be much like the Great War (WWI) as far as mobility goes, with very few motorized vehicles. (note: I edited this because I had one too many zeros in the inital yield, which made a MAJOR difference)

Just my two cents
Grae

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

However, I have seen Grae talking about diesel and alcohol and that interested me: it can't work. However, diesel engine were designed for heavy oil and they would work on any type of oil (from arachid to olive). You can put about 50% of vegetable oil in any diesel engine and 100% if you can attached some eating device on it.

Mo I think there was some confusion here. Sorry if I didn't explain it fully.

What I was trying to get across, you do NOT burn alcohol in a diesel engine, just as you do not burn gasoline, though you can in a multi-fuel engine which also has plugs. However in refinement of biodiesel they use alcohol a solute for the hydroxide which soaponifies the veg. oil. YES you can run the oil straight with minor problems. One thing that needs to be done if your running straight VO is to have some heater for the oil in the tank, which helps with the vaporization since the vescosity is heavier than diesel. Also periodically you should (if possible) add some mineral oil to the tank. This provides lubrication to the injectors. The VO does not do the job as well as the mineral oil, causing early injector failures. I have seen figures of 1 QT per 100 gallons. If your running blended biodiesel this is not required.


Grae

[chico20854]

Some fuel consumption figures for various US Navy ships, in barrels/nautical mile, at economy cruising speed:

CG-47 Aegis cruiser: 2.46
FFG-7 Perry-class frigate: .98
USS Midway aircraft carrier: 4.09
Newport-class LST: .81
Tarawa-class LHA: 3.91
Sealift-class tanker: 1.9
Cape D-class ro/ro: .92

[Targan]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Some fuel consumption figures for various US Navy ships, in barrels/nautical mile, at economy cruising speed:

Good info there. How about smaller vessels (more likely for PCs to be involved with)?

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Targan

Good info there. How about smaller vessels (more likely for PCs to be involved with)?

Some of the smaller ones on my web site's ship design page (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ship_designs.html):

USS Betsy Ross: 5.83 gallons/nm
Atlantik-class Soviet trawler: 8.5 tons diesel/day at 13 knots; 6.0 tons diesel/day at 12 knots
passenger-cruise boat: 3.24 gallons/nm at 10.5 knots
supply/salvage tug #2: 12.5 tons/day at 12 knots, 10.1 tons/day at 10 knots.

and...
NOAA's Rude, 12 tons of fuel goes 800nm at 10 knots!

[chico20854]

Another, more fuel efficient way to move cargo - river barges.

Some quotes from a recent barge market report:

On the Mississippi River system a single 200' x 35' x 12' inland river hopper barge (either open or closed) is capable of carrying 1,750 short tons of dry cargo which is the equivalent of 16 railcars or 70 semi-tractor/trailers. It will take 144 semi-tractor/trailers or 46 rail cars to replace a single 300' x 54', 27,500bbl tank barge hauling liquid bulk cargoes. Forty-one U.S. states, 16 state capitals and all states east of the Mississippi River are served by commercially navigable waterways. Railroads are 28.3% less fuel efficient than the U.S. inland waterway freight transportation system, based on revenue ton-miles per gallon - and the railroads are even more efficient than trucks.

Ton-Miles/Gallon
Inland Towing 576
Railroads 413
Truck 155

The 12,000nm of U.S. inland and Intracoastal waterways, like highways, operate as a system, and much of the commerce moves on multiple segments. They serve as connecting arteries, much like neighborhood streets help people reach interstate highways. Over 1,023.5 million short tons of total commodities were on the inland and coastal waters of the U.S. in 2006, down 0.5% from 2005 and most of this was carried by barge. As of 31st December 2006 (with updates thru 30th August 2007) the U.S. fleet consisted of a total of 32,211 dry, deck, tank and other barges, up 159 barges over 2005.

Barges range from under 10' in length for sectional units up to almost 1,000' in length and capable of performing myriads of chores including cargo transport, pipelay, heavy-lift, water-desalinization, power generation and offshore floating production / storage.

In the United States, there were 23,281 freight and 4,370 tank barges documented with the U.S. Coast Guard as of July 2008, in addition to an estimated 10,000+ undocumented barges of various sizes in service.

Flat deck barges carry cargoes on deck such as containers, gravel, construction equipment, multi-million dollar project cargoes and rolling stock. Most of the barges are single deck, although there are house, double and even triple deck ro/ro barges in service. According to the U.S. Maritime Administration, as of 31st December 2006 there were 5,492 deck barges in service in the U.S. with close to half over 25 years of age. In addition there are 154 "other dry cargo" barges that includes barges that may be open or covered, railroad car, pontoon, Ro-Ro, container or convertible - again with close to half of the barges 25 years or older.

Hopper barges are designed to carry dry bulk cargoes such as grains, coal, ore or packaged goods in one or more holds similar to a ship. These holds can be either covered or open without hatch covers. As of 31st December 2006 there were 13,062 dry covered, 8,673 dry open hopper barges in the U.S. fleet according the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. 1,460 of the covered and 1,697 of the open barges were built within the previous five years. 36.4% of the covered and 19.1% open are older than 25 years of age. It is generally calculated that inland river hopper barges have a useful life of 25 to 30 years.

Demand for coastwise transportation has fluctuated over the years, however petroleum and chemical products have always been a significant portion of domestic trade, representing 41.9% of all commodities carried in U.S. waters during 2006. Tank barges have been built from abt. 40' in length to over 600', with capacities from under 18,000 gallons to over 17,500,000 gallons (417,000bbl) of liquid cargo. As of 31st December 2006, 13.2% or 4,250 of the 32,211 barges in U.S. trade were in tank service.

[Targan]

Again, good info Chico. Barges have seen quite a bit of use in my current campaign. Major Po's unit has made use of them and recently during the pre-game of the new PC being introduced into the campaign barges have seen quite a lot of use around Chesapeake Bay and the connecting waterways in early December 2000 (weather permitting).

[O'Borg]

Given circumstances its unlikely you'll be running cars on LPG in the T2Kverse, but if anyone's interested I've cribbed some useful info from one of my car-porn mags

LPG = Liquid Petroleum Gas, a mix of 20-30% butane and 70-80% propane depending on who brewed it. It's usually a by-product of the oil industry rather than a dedicated production line, so it's likely to be in limited stock even before the collapse, though its fairly widely available in France and Australia. Of course if nobody else can use it you might find a big tank of the stuff untouched...

Most petrol/gasoline engines can run LPG with minimal conversion, but will do so at a loss of at least 10% power and increase of at least 10% fuel consumption. LPG is actually higher octane than petrol, but is lower density so you need to use more of it. Better performance can be gained by advancing the ignition timing, increasing compression ratio and using a dedicated LPG injection system and mapped ignition rather than an old style venturii attached to the existing inlet manifold.
However increasing CR is pretty much a one way ticket, and on newer engines might not even be possible due to tight modern tolerances.

You'll also be happy to note that LPG is a much cleaner, greener fuel than petrol or diesel, so your modified humvees wont be adding to the environmental woes of post-apocalyptic Northern Europe

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by O'Borg

It's usually a by-product of the oil industry rather than a dedicated production line, so it's likely to be in limited stock even before the collapse, though its fairly widely available in France and Australia. Of course if nobody else can use it you might find a big tank of the stuff untouched...

I don't know about Australia but for France you can say "was widely available". Actually the number of gas station delivering it have been reduced by about 2/3rd. This is becoming increasingly rare and, nowadays, mostly used by campers on their vans. A few years ago, several car could use it but today these are mostly industrial vehicle.

Another problem with that thing is to fill up the tank. You might well find a full reserve of this thing and not being able to use it if you don't have the stuff to allow for the transfer (it has to remain liquid). A year ago I was behind a guy fillling his tank on his camping van, it took him seven minutes to fill in the tank. Another bad point if you are in a hury.

One last point, older models using this had a bad tendancy to burst in flame (nice and fancy but not very practical) as the tank could backfire. They have fixed that problem of course but on a model which is in not so good a shape because of general neglect, that might be a risk again. A good way to change your players in nice fireworks .

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

One last point, older models using this had a bad tendancy to burst in flame (nice and fancy but not very practical) as the tank could backfire. They have fixed that problem of course but on a model which is in not so good a shape because of general neglect, that might be a risk again. A good way to change your players in nice fireworks .

Actually backfires on gasoline engines in the carburation days were not all that uncommon, especially on engines that didn't have tune-ups on regular basis. I've had more than a couple carb fires, though not explosions that you seem to be describing. Here in Texas, esp in areas where natural gas is produced, you see ranch vechiles using LPG. As indicated else where, LPG is a dry substance, hence no lubricating factors in it, which will result eventually in more engine wear than with liquids. We're talking cumulative here, not much noticed short term.

Grae

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

I don't know about Australia but for France you can say "was widely available". Actually the number of gas station delivering it have been reduced by about 2/3rd. This is becoming increasingly rare and, nowadays, mostly used by campers on their vans. A few years ago, several car could use it but today these are mostly industrial vehicle.

Here in Perth, Western Australia large numbers of private vehicles run on LPG as do many buses and most (nearly all) taxis. There are truly enormous gas reserves off the NW coast of Western Australia so we aren't going to be running out of natural gas any time soon.

[General Pain]

Originally Posted by chico20854

Some of the smaller ones on my web site's ship design page (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeedox4/ship_designs.html):

USS Betsy Ross: 5.83 gallons/nm
Atlantik-class Soviet trawler: 8.5 tons diesel/day at 13 knots; 6.0 tons diesel/day at 12 knots
passenger-cruise boat: 3.24 gallons/nm at 10.5 knots
supply/salvage tug #2: 12.5 tons/day at 12 knots, 10.1 tons/day at 10 knots.

and...
NOAA's Rude, 12 tons of fuel goes 800nm at 10 knots!

there are som designs here too www.thebigbookofwar.50megs.com

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Actually backfires on gasoline engines in the carburation days were not all that uncommon, especially on engines that didn't have tune-ups on regular basis. I've had more than a couple carb fires, though not explosions that you seem to be describing. Here in Texas, esp in areas where natural gas is produced, you see ranch vechiles using LPG. As indicated else where, LPG is a dry substance, hence no lubricating factors in it, which will result eventually in more engine wear than with liquids. We're talking cumulative here, not much noticed short term.

Grae

As I said the burning problem was on older models. Nowadays, you see it only with buses in Paris. I don't think I have heard of one of these things burning since the early 1990's. However, one of the bus burnt something like last year.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

Here in Perth, Western Australia large numbers of private vehicles run on LPG as do many buses and most (nearly all) taxis. There are truly enormous gas reserves off the NW coast of Western Australia so we aren't going to be running out of natural gas any time soon.

Might be the problem with us. We ran out about 15 years ago and prices have kept rising ever since. Nevertheless, I almost never used gas for anything as I had a fun experience with it during winter vacation.

The gas shot down and an ex-girlfriend opened the hot water somewhere in the house (she was not very smart and decided not to care about everyone shouting that no one was to use the hot water). Of course, I was the one igniting the heater and the sight of a 3 meters long flame, with my hand in the middle, was very impressive. I also discovered that it was better to have your hand at the beginning of the flame than at the end of it. I didn't feel a thing while another girl (standing further away) was smelling like fried pig.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Might be the problem with us. We ran out about 15 years ago and prices have kept rising ever since. Nevertheless, I almost never used gas for anything as I had a fun experience with it during winter vacation.

The gas shot down and an ex-girlfriend opened the hot water somewhere in the house (she was not very smart and decided not to care about everyone shouting that no one was to use the hot water). Of course, I was the one igniting the heater and the sight of a 3 meters long flame, with my hand in the middle, was very impressive. I also discovered that it was better to have your hand at the beginning of the flame than at the end of it. I didn't feel a thing while another girl (standing further away) was smelling like fried pig.

Ouch!!!!!! YOU were lucky, but sounds as if the girl wasn't so. Do you heat much with wood where your at?

Grae

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Graebarde

Ouch!!!!!! YOU were lucky, but sounds as if the girl wasn't so. Do you heat much with wood where your at?

Grae

The girl was lucky too as she got only her hair burnt. She was more angry too.

For the heat we use fuel plus wood burnt in an old and very good 150 years old fireplace. The house itself is from 1860 with 60-80cm walls made from a combination of sand (Pisé like) and stone. It is quite heat efficient and the local weather requires heat for only about 4-5 month a year. We usually start the heater in mid-November and cut it around early April.

[Graebarde]

What would alternative fuel talk be without discussion of solid fuels (wood and coal) and steam. First the energy unit I will use is BTU (British thermal unit) which is defined as the amount of energy needed to raise one pound of water one degree F. at 60 degrees F. (from 60 to 61 is the measure). One BTU is ~1055 joule.

First we address the BTU values of some common fuels. It will help us understand why there is a loss of power resulting in increased consumption with fuels such as the alcohols. These figures are in BTU per unit of measure, usually gallons or pounds.

Gasoline 125000 /gal
Fuel Oil 149690 /gal (household heating fuel)
Kerosene 135000 /gal (also known as light distillate)
Diesel fuel 138690 /gal (medium distillate)
Ethanol 84400 /gal
Methanol 62800 /gal
Crude Oil 138095 /gal
Liquid Pet. Gas 95475 /gal
Natural Gas 1008 /Cubic foot
Electric 3413 /kilowatt

Coal per pound
Anthracite 12500 (hard coal found primarily in Pennsylvania)
Bituminous 12000 (most common high value coal used for coke in steel mills)
Sub-bituminous 9000 (what they’re mining in Wyoming)
Lignite 7000 (brown coal)

Common Representative wood, air dried values, green wood is about 75% value of dry wood.
Hickory 5800
Oak 5790
Pine 6390


I addressed steam engines for locomotives in another post, but stationary use of steam for such things as mill operations (sawmill, cotton gins, and electric plants) would be coming back I think. What made me think of the was Chico’s mention of clearing roads in the South, where they were going to just burn it, why not burn it for fuel to help industry and heat the homes?

A rule of thumb for steam operation taken from Lacy 1913 (old but applicable I think) for simple steam (as verses compounds). There is one pound of coal per six gallons of water used. I would base it on bituminous, the most common of coals in use, especially when this was written. So how much water do you use. There are some variables, so I have taken the highest value found for consumption to ‘over estimate. Water consumption is ~30 pounds of water per hour per horsepower. Most common found semi-portable steam engines of the era mentioned and most easily reconstructed are the 30-70 hp.

Using a 75 hp Case steam tractor for an example, this engine would consume ~2250 gallons of water per hour. LOTS of water, and it needs to be GOOD clean water to keep maintenance down if possible. It would require 375 pounds of bituminous coal per hour as well. Not really feasible for a sawmill to haul in coal, so typically slab wood was burned. Let’s assume they are cutting hardwood such as hickory, a very common tree across the entire eastern US. Bituminous coal has ~12000 BTU/pound, where as the hickory has only ~5800 BTU/pound if dry. The wet would have ~4350 BTU/pound. It would take ~1030 pounds of green hickory per hour. Hickory has a density (dry) of ~50 pounds/cubic foot or using our measure ~70 pounds/CF wet. That’s ~15 CF of wood/hour.

A mill of the size this engine can run should be able to put out at least 44,000 board feet of rough-cut lumber a day with a crew (including the woodsmen) of 45. (This is based on the old Engineer Sawmill teams. Use to have the TO&E for that unit. Nice set up too.) This is equivalent to ~140 18” x 20-foot saw logs. Each of these logs will produce ~312 board foot of useable lumber, while leaving ~0.45 cubic feet of slab. Operating ten-hours per day, that’s ~14 logs per hour for a short fall of ~9 CF per hour in wood. But there is plenty of top slash, etc from the operation. Yes it requires transporting, but mules, oxen, or horses can be used. And I would ‘rush’ a rail operation into the mix if at all possible. Even slow moving land trains (each tractor pulling 2-4 trailers depending on the grades). If you can get ahead of the game, there is no speed march needed to get the fuel in as long as it’s ahead.

A steam engine can burn all sorts of things, from wood and coal, to grass, straw, cottonseed hulls, solid waste, and if you have it oil that doesn’t need high refining. Just some thoughts again.

Grae

PS. I will send a pdf copy of Ludy's Steam Engines to anyone interested. It doesn't seem to want to attach here, perhaps too large.

[Graebarde]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

The girl was lucky too as she got only her hair burnt. She was more angry too.

For the heat we use fuel plus wood burnt in an old and very good 150 years old fireplace. The house itself is from 1860 with 60-80cm walls made from a combination of sand (Pisé like) and stone. It is quite heat efficient and the local weather requires heat for only about 4-5 month a year. We usually start the heater in mid-November and cut it around early April.

She got off lucky, and imagine she was a 'bit upset'.

The old masonry houses with thick walls are great heat sinks. Warm in winter, once the walls get heated up initally, and generally cool in summer. Helps keep the heating bill down for sure.

Grae

[WallShadow]

Just thought of a way to avoid needing grease for a chain-drive bike or motorcycle--get a paraffin candle and grate it into small particles, grind up the graphite from numerous pencils and combine. Melt in a double boiler and brush the mixture into the drive chain. Rotate the chain through its path, and repeat until all crevices have been treated.