Sea Lanes

[pmulcahy11b]

Don't forget, both sides had nuclear mines in their inventory. You could run into one of those floating around...

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Don't forget, both sides had nuclear mines in their inventory. You could run into one of those floating around...

Paul,

I've seen references they were developed some time in the fifties but never put into production. (I could see nuclear naval mines being a part of the early Cold War rush to develop nukes of all types but regarded as a little too uncontrollable and unnecessary like the plethora of nukes from the Mk45 torpedo to the Davey Crockett to nuclear-tipped SAMs and air-to-air rockets, all of which are now out of service.)

The drawback of a nuclear mine is there is no way to exercise positive control of the weapon. That is, a vessel would arm and deploy it, then leave and hope someone sets it off, but doesn't know when or perhaps even if. Plus, the target is likely random unless (say) there is advance notice a high value target will pass by, yet nothing else will set the mine off in the mean time. The delay is something of an advantage for submarines, who would at least have the opportunity to relocate to a safe distance, which was a serious problem with the Mk 45 torpedo.

Still, such mines could have finally been manufactured in the run up to the war and after the start.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

I think it's worth noting that all four of Poland's Whiskey class boats were retired by 1986.
From wiki:

Poland (four vessels, 1962-1986, retired)

While it's possible one or more of these could have been reactivated/not retired, it seems rather unlikely they'd be all that serviceable - they were already about 25 years old when retired. IRL the last boat was decommissioned in 1988.
Haven't been able to find out what happened to the hulls in the few minutes I've got available right now (scrapped and broken up, dry docked, museum, park ornament, etc).

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Haven't been able to find out what happened to the hulls in the few minutes I've got available right now (scrapped and broken up, dry docked, museum, park ornament, etc).

I would think scrapped as they were replaced by 2 Foxtrot and 1 Kilo. At most, the one decomissioned in 1988 could have survived with the other providing spares.

Also to note, 50 Whiskey remained on soviet navy list in 1990 with 22 in the Baltic, 14 in the Black Sea, 10 in the Pacific and 4 in the North Fleet. By 1991 only 11 remained. I wander if these would have been recommissioned for secondary missions. Whiskey could carry 22mines in place of the torpedoes.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Also to note, 50 Whiskey remained on soviet navy list in 1990 with 22 in the Baltic, 14 in the Black Sea, 10 in the Pacific and 4 in the North Fleet. By 1991 only 11 remained. I wander if these would have been recommissioned for secondary missions. Whiskey could carry 22mines in place of the torpedoes.

Mo,

This Whiskey class submarine also might not be one of the original ones. If the Soviets still had 50 of them in inventory, certainly one or more could have been transferred to the Polish navy as part of some new sub-building programme in the 90's.

Tony

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Mo,

This Whiskey class submarine also might not be one of the original ones. If the Soviets still had 50 of them in inventory, certainly one or more could have been transferred to the Polish navy as part of some new sub-building programme in the 90's.

Tony

Indeed, it is possible. However, I would tend to think that they would sell them Kilo-class submarine instead. IRL they were exported to Algeria (4), China (12), India (10), Iran (3), Poland (1) and Romania (1). In T2K none will be exported to China or Iran and export to India might be reduced by 4 units.

Most of the remaining Whiskey were training stations while many others had been modified to some extend.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Indeed, it is possible. However, I would tend to think that they would sell them Kilo-class submarine instead. IRL they were exported to Algeria (4), China (12), India (10), Iran (3), Poland (1) and Romania (1). In T2K none will be exported to China or Iran and export to India might be reduced by 4 units.

Most of the remaining Whiskey were training stations while many others had been modified to some extend.

Mo,

After an exhausting three minutes of research, I am unable to determine what happened to the Whiskey subs in Russia. For the sake of argument I'll agree with you, but that doesn't invalidate my point. For example, even if the Soviets sold Poland the superior Kilo class sub the Poles could have still kept one of their Whiskeys for training purposes (or simply been given another one by the Soviets). By 2000 all other operational subs are gone, and all that remains is a single Whiskey sub formerly used for training.

Tony

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Mo,

After an exhausting three minutes of research, I am unable to determine what happened to the Whiskey subs in Russia. For the sake of argument I'll agree with you, but that doesn't invalidate my point. For example, even if the Soviets sold Poland the superior Kilo class sub the Poles could have still kept one of their Whiskeys for training purposes (or simply been given another one by the Soviets). By 2000 all other operational subs are gone, and all that remains is a single Whiskey sub formerly used for training.

Tony

Absolutely true. I actually didn't think about invalidating it. Here is something to help you out for another three minutes:

http://russian-ships.info/eng/warships/

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Don't forget, both sides had nuclear mines in their inventory. You could run into one of those floating around...

My navy buddy told me about this one....

THE nightmare scenario for the navy during the 1970s-80s was a first strike by the Soviets, using freighters. Yup, everyday, freighters sailing into American ports to onload American grain, offload ore....real dull commercial stuff, right?

The area of concern was that one of these freighters could carry a couple of good-sized nuclear bombs...right into the heart of Seattle, New York, New Orleans, Baltimore....get the picture?

I'm told what really had them worried was one in New York harbor...and the President taking a trip to NYC to visit the UN...and the lighting off of a 25MT...zero warning, wide spread confusion in the chain of command, a second strike from sub-launched missiles within the next ten minutes...

An intresting idea...

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Absolutely true. I actually didn't think about invalidating it. Here is something to help you out for another three minutes:

http://russian-ships.info/eng/warships/

Mo,

Wow, thanks! That's a pretty comprehensive list.

I mean, hey, we all understand the Whiskey is listed in the "Baltic Coast" because the authors had no idea what was going to happen in the future and could only work on the information they had. But it's fun to rationalise the sometimes more far-fetched elements of canon.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

Absolutely agree. It's possible that the Whiskey in question was Soviet in origin, but beached and abandoned by it's crew because of battle damage. The enterprising Poles then salvaged it and have slowly carried out repair as resource came available.
But, with only 230 Naval personnel in Gdynia, and most of the vessels little more than rusting hulks, it's bound to be VERY slow going on repairs (also likely to be well down the list or priorities).

[rcaf_777]

However St. John's Harbour, Newfoundland and Labrador and Sydney, Nova Scotia would be functioning. I see both the harbours at busy places, due to three offshore oil fields around Newfoundland and Labrador and Steel Mill and Coal Mine in Nova Scotia.

Sydney would be the fall back harbour for the Canadian Navy, there is a good harbour with alots of natural protection and the Navy already had a maintiance/drydock there used by the Fleet here are some pics I took of the harbour that I took when I was there for my honeymoon, would got some more pics but how do you explain to your wife you want to take more pics of the harbour for TW 2000 adventure that planing

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Sydney would be the fall back harbour for the Canadian Navy, there is a good harbour with alots of natural protection and the Navy already had a maintiance/drydock there used by the Fleet here are some pics I took of the harbour that I took when I was there for my honeymoon, would got some more pics but how do you explain to your wife you want to take more pics of the harbour for TW 2000 adventure that planing

Don't know. However, you can explain her that you want to get back there because you had so great memories about that honeymoon. So romantic to go on a second honeymoon.

[Legbreaker]

Interesting. Not sure the old WWII defences would be of any use in a T2K scenario though. More likely they'd be bulldozed and rebuilt to cater for modern weapons.
Provided of course they're not under some heritage order or other....

[boogiedowndonovan]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Major working harbors:
- Macao (China)
.

just a minor quibble, Macau was still a Portugese possession until 1999. In the T2k timeline the handover would likely never happen (like T2k Hong Kong).

Also interesting to note, Portugual withdrew military troops from Macau in 1974. Portugual may have deployed troops after fighting breaks out along the PRC-Soviet border in 1995. Not sure if Macau had any territorial or reserve military like the Royal Hong Kong Regiment, but I could see them forming some type of reserve type force of Macau part time soldiers.

Maybe this should be in another thread but my assumption is that, in addition to deploying ground troops, the Portugese also deploy air and naval assets to protect the territory as well as sea and air traffic to and from Macau.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan

Also interesting to note, Portugual withdrew military troops from Macau in 1974. Portugual may have deployed troops after fighting breaks out along the PRC-Soviet border in 1995. Not sure if Macau had any territorial or reserve military like the Royal Hong Kong Regiment, but I could see them forming some type of reserve type force of Macau part time soldiers.

Maybe this should be in another thread but my assumption is that, in addition to deploying ground troops, the Portugese also deploy air and naval assets to protect the territory as well as sea and air traffic to and from Macau.

The idea of Portugal deploying troops in 1995 sounds feasable enough to me.

Potential snag with any deployment of air forces might be that IRL Macau didn't have an airport of its own until the end of 1995, so after the outbreak of the Sino Soviet War. It's debatable what impact (if any) the War might have on the completion of the airport - Macau is neutral territory, so in one respect there may be no affect, but if anything brought in from the PRC (building materials, labour force, etc) might be disrupted enough to delay completion at best or cause work to be halted completely at worst.

If it wasn't finished I don't think there would be a a suitable facility in Macau to host any military aircraft (Hong Kong would be the nearest option).