Germany in T2K

[cro]

I agree with horsesoldier.
I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.
In the mid-90ies the Bundeswehr disbanded there tank-destroyer coys (Jaguar), because the weopon-system TOW was not better than the 120mm smoothbore.
The 120mm and its fire control system outclasses the TOW. And one round of 120mm is cheaper than a TOW missile.
Statistics say that every 1,4th shot is a first hit. So, every shot is a hit. Nice.

In my timeline we have a lot of 2A4 and a few 2A5s.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I'm not convinced. The 120mm seems to be more than adequate to deal with most of the AFVs the Germans would face and I doubt introducing another type of ammo into the logistical train would help anyone.

Could be a few prototypes floating about in T2K though.

That's why the 140mm, and the Russian 135mm and 152mm, haven't gone anywhere -- right now, the 120mm and 125mm are adequate for the modern battlefield, and no one sees the need to change them (along with an established production base...)

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cro

I don't think that there would be a Leo 3. Afterall, there is only a Leo2A6.
And I don't think there is a Leo 2-140.

They're working on a Leopard 2A7, though I've seen few details as of yet. It seems to be a sort of "electric tank" version, like the M1A2 SEP.

The Leopard 2-140 exists only on the drawing board, and in one Photoshopped picture put out by Rheinmetall.

The "Leopard 3" also existed only on the drawing board, but the Leopard 2 with the casemated turret didn't look like the T2K Leopard 3. It looked more like a Leopard 2 with a large, flat turret that sort of looks like a squashed M1 turret.

[Panther Al]

The swiss mounted a 140 in one of their leo's, and while I have a pic of it floating about, I can't vouch too hard on if its not photoshopped, as the tube looks long as all hell and it appears to have a pepperpot muzzle break of some sort on it.

[Abbott Shaull]

You know for the NATO it seems the 120 mm did a fine job. Much like I am sure the Soviet 125mm probably would of done just as effective job too.

[natehale1971]

Sorry about not commenting earlier... but i've been so busy trying to get the layouts and new artwork drawn for the work i've been doing on The Morrow Project core rule book 4th Edition that i've not really had the time to keep up on the forums..

So please forgive me guys. But Germany in T2k has always been something that I've had fun playing around with (be it as having several of my characters being East or West German soldiers working with the Americans, or the campaign we played as East German soldiers who had been on the Far Eastern Front when the Coupe happened back home).

But there is one thing that I really felt needed to be changed about the first edition of the game...

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

The DDR DNVA maintained its definitely Soviet style names and military organization during the war, it did slowly start to adopt BRD DBW designed and for the most part built weapons as the war progressed as their stockpiles of Soviet built and developed weapons were expended.
But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I can't find anything on heavy weapon production for the DDR, if anyone knows anything... please contact me so i can get that so i can work that into my DDR and BRD country articles that I've been writing.

I have created a detailed DDR DNVA OOB that showed a fictional reorganization of the DNVA that happens during the early-1990s that would have happened during the same period of the Soviet Reorganization using the lessons they had learned watching how well the US forces did fighting against Iraq during Desert Storm. One of the biggest changes was the renumbering of divisions and regiments, and the addition of Guards units (the most elite and premier units composed of the most politically loyal troops).

In the articles I've been working on for the two German states. I've included descriptions of military orders & decorations and the like for some flavor text to expound upon the two different cultural identities, and of course the ways that the two where more alike than not... such as both states having instituted the Order of the Iron Cross during wartime, and their own versions of the Honor Cross.

But the DDR instituting the Order of the Red Eagle as one of their highest awards, and the BDR instituting the Order of the Black Eagle as their highest award!

I've been debating on drawing pictures of the uniforms, and digging up pictures of the types of camo patterns and the like to add to the articles.

So, when I get a chance to post my articles I'll start a new thread for each one, so i can get advice on improving them individually.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The G36 would never have been developed, it's a product of the end of the Cold War when Heckler & Koch were able to share information/techniques/designs with Royal Ordnance when RO bought HK. It uses design influences from the AR-18, influences which only came about due to HK's association with RO.
Without that specific event happening, the G36 would never have been thought of let alone developed and HK would have probably pushed for making the G41 it's main 5.56mm rifle.

[HorseSoldier]

That's why I have always played the first edition timeline with the Federal Republic of Germany and German Democratic Republic NOT unifying. Not only due to the logistical nightmares that would have come from such an action during wartime or that over the nearly fifty year cultural differences that had developed between the East & West Germans... but in an effort to keep the Soviets from using the 'Unified Germany = Imperialists Invaders' propaganda in the other Warsaw Pact states.

To each their own and all, but I personally have always found the way the Twilight War kicked off to be one of the cooler aspects of the Twilight War setting, since it makes for a much more gray and murky setting, morally speaking. Not just in terms of Germany reunification by force being murky in and of itself, but that most of NATO jumps on board a NATO initiated war against the Soviets and rest of the Warsaw Pact. Soviet propaganda will have a pretty big kernel of truth in it that it's fighting a defensive war, and the specter of German militarism, however much it's not a one for one stand in for 1939, does a lot to explain how and why the Poles and Czechoslovaks stay on board on the Soviet side of things.

But also as the war rolled on, the East Germans started to work on the development of their own military hardware with the help of their Western Brothers... such as the state owned weapons arsenals partnering up with the West German manufacturers as H&K to produce replacements for the AK-47 and AK-74.

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

There's not going to be time to replace the NVA's small arms inventory before the nukes fly, not with the war going full tilt. I'd expect that all small arms factories on both sides of the former border are going triple shift turning out G41s, G11s, and MPiK-74s. Best case scenario would be a crash program to convert the 74s to 5.56mm, which would be a pretty easy conversion. (And even with that, I could still see the reunified Germans bringing in boatloads of M16s and C7s from the US and Canada to at least get a standardized caliber on the books.)

But, end of the day, the reunified Germany is just handed a logistical nightmare. I think they're more interesting playing that ball where it lies, too, rather than giving them a mulligan

Thus you could have seen the H&K G36 being developed... but as a replacement for the dwindling numbers of the AK family of weapons in the East German arsenal.

I agree with the other post that G36 just never exists -- HK had no experience with, or apparently interest in, the AR-18 they borrowed heavily from on the G36 before they did the L85 upgrade for the UK, which gets into counterfactual stuff for the Twilight War timeline.

The other thing is that disruption of petroleum production and worldwide commerce will be a show stopper for production of something like the G36. Germany could be building MPiK-74s even circa 2000, with the only thing that would need serious modification being the substitution of wood for plastic furniture.

[Abbott Shaull]

Honestly, I can see in v1 that the G11 production would soon be halted so as to produce more G41s to standardize rounds for the Germans and her NATO allies.

Also the former East German units will continue with their former Pact weapon and limited production would continue on to support these units.

Honestly one of the major problems with the entire war is that the Pact went against their tradition of taking weaken units and merging them. Or the fact that NATO units would have attachments and detachments to help each other. Granted during late 1998 and into the winter 1999-2000 as many units would of tried to be returned to their parent when possible, but there would still be several of them where moving the sub-units would of been more costly than leaving them with whatever unit they had ended up with. Even during the 2000 Offensive within the 3rd German Army there would of been several cross-attachments with each of the Corps and even III German Corps and IX US Corps may have done some of this between them for the current offensive.

[Legbreaker]

Why? The G11 in the V1 timeline was the main service rifle for the West Germans. The G41 was the supporting services rifle. Both production lines would have been in place and operating concurrently.

Standardisation was clearly NOT a priority for the Germans otherwise they wouldn't have even begun to consider the G11 and it's caseless ammo. Given that it was set to enter service in 1990-91, the Germans would have had 4-5 years to build up a war stockpile of ammo, plus whatever else they produced once production was ramped up in advance of hostilities. Until the production facilities were destroyed, probably by nukes in late 97 (although likely attacked conventionally numerous times prior to that), there seems little need for the Germans, with their separate logistical train to the US, British, etc, to conform.

Also, the G11 was developed because a soldier could carry more than twice the ammo as an M16 armed man for the same weight, had better accuracy, and was much more controllable - why throw that all away for the ability to share magazines with soldiers who are operating in a completely different area?

I agree that the East Germans would continue to use their pre-unification equipment (although perhaps with new uniforms and vehicle markings) - there's little doubt that the west would be totally unable to re-equip them all in just a few weeks or months (depending on the version timeline).

Granted it may not have been Pact doctrine to not combine depleted units, but that's the situation we're faced with in the game. To me it's quite simple to explain it - the units were in constant action in the beginning, under pressure all the time. The opportunity simply wasn't there to withdraw units form the line and reorganise them in any significant way. Later in the war, the logistical ability to shift large numbers of troops and equipment around had disappeared.

[Targan]

I agree with pretty much all of Leg's points above. In my campaigns G11s have been available for characters without too much trouble but ammo was very scarce.

[Legbreaker]

In the V1 timeline, ammo availability seems to be the only reason anyone wouldn't be using a G11. When you look at it, it's a brilliant weapon.

In V2, which mirrors reality a bit closer in the early years, the G11 is probably still available (roughly 1,000 were produced IRL with some finding their way into the military). Chances are though that you'd either have to be very lucky to find one, or be in an elite unit (and even then they'd be scarce). On the other hand, an entire unit in the rear might be equipped with them - ammo consumption being nowhere near that of a combat unit, some individuals may even still have a few rounds they were issued with at the beginning of the war!.

[B.T.]

Leg: I'm surprised. Why do you think, the G11 would be scarce even in German service?

In my campaign, I use the G11 as the standard firearm of German combat troops (In 1996 it was, most soldiers in 2000 once had a G11 but try to pick up weapons that work with an easier to find/trade ammo.). The other German troops are equipped with G3 or G41. Some units of the former NVA and western soldiers, who captured lots of them, use AKs.

I'm not sure, where your info stems from. Something I've overlooked all these years?

[Rainbow Six]

Purely from a V1 perspective, I totally agree with those that think that G11's themselves might be relatively easy to find but the ammunition will be very rare. I think the original V1 equipment list states that is the case.

Hence I would think most troops armed with G11's would have discarded them (at worst) or cached them (at best) in favour of weapons they can easily get ammo for.

[Legbreaker]

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think the G11 would be scarce in V2.x simply because reunification actually happened as in reality. The G11 in the world as we know it only had an extremely limited run of about 1,000.
With East Germany returning to the fold as it does in 2.x, the same issues would have arisen as they have IRL.

In V1 though I'm all for the G11 to have seen widespread issue, virtually replacing the G3 as was intended prior to 1989. In V1, Germany didn't reunify until the beginning of the war in 1996 which allows more than enough time and money to be spent on rearming the west with it. The only issue in V1 reducing the number of G11's in use is the availability of ammunition.

Which one has to remember is part of the sticky points with NATO. They have tried to more or less to get everyone using the same calibre and types of rounds. When you are the only one using the one type of rounds, not many others can help you with your logistical problem of arming troops.

That and throw into real life as Poland and other Eastern Europe nations were absorbed into NATO and some before switch their rounds from the former Pact standard to NATO standard fairly quickly with all things considered. In many case the equipment inherited by the Germany Army from East Germany went on to help supply several Eastern Europe neighbors. Even the small arms were sold off relatively quickly to help make for efforts to get their forces using the same equipment. Of course, the reduction of forces helped out here too.

[Legbreaker]

Real life did indeed involve a number of different calibres, however we're talking about a game and the addition of only one calibre which is superior in almost every way to that used by the rest of Nato.

Supply issues there may have been, but there's almost no chance of German and English speaking soldiers serving shoulder to shoulder and having to share mags. Why? Because of the language barrier of course! A commander simply cannot bank on having even a small part of his troops able to communicate with each other, therefore they must plan to keep them as two (or more) separate operational units.

[B.T.]

In Germany the English language is taughed to all pupils. Off course, most Germans do not need so much of this later in their life, but in an environment and a situation like the Twilight War many Germans would train their English skills.

(By the way: I, from a personal point of view, think it's way easier to talk to someone in English, than to write in English!)

I don't think some kind of situation report or tactical briefing between English/American and German forces would work very good (In some cases it would, depending on the individual skills of the people being involved!), but begging for ammo or calling in indirect fire should work in most cases.

In my Twilight World it is not uncommon to have people from different countries serving together in a "new" unit - Germans in the 5th Inf. Div., Poles or Russians in a NATO unit or Americans as part of a Bundeswehr unit.

The German forces in the Twilight universe have a serious problem with their ammo: In each unit there would be at least 3 different kinds of ammo - 7,62 NATO; 9mm Para and 4,7 caseless or 5,56 NATO. If a unit is armed with a mix of G11 and G41/M16, these units would need 4 different kinds of ammo. If the units had AKs with them, the situation would be even worse!

[Legbreaker]

The multiple ammo is an issue in most armies. In Australia for example in the late 80s a Rifle section in the infantry with 9 men had 9mmP, 5.56mm, and 7.62mm, plus all the various heavier weapons including 40mmHEDP, M72s, grenades, and on occasion 81mm mortar rounds and 84mm Carl Gustav rounds.

The Germans having 7.62N, 4.7cls OR 5.56N and maybe 9mmP (for those rare individuals with pistols, or the handful with MP-5s) doesn't look to be much of an issue, especially if the 4.7mm pistol rumoured to have been in development was fielded. (naturally they'd still have the heavier ammo to carry and supply).

[James Langham]

Perhaps the best reason to include the G11 is to emphasize the way that technology is failing. Bear in mind by 1990 the G3s in service were often older than their users and reaching the end of their service life. Something needed doing (v2.2 notes the draw down of the German Army despite the Soviet threat - perhaps this freed up funding for the G11) The expansion in 1995/6 however will have resulted in a huge mix of weapons and the resulting logistics nightmare.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by James Langham

Perhaps the best reason to include the G11 is to emphasize the way that technology is failing. Bear in mind by 1990 the G3s in service were often older than their users and reaching the end of their service life. Something needed doing (v2.2 notes the draw down of the German Army despite the Soviet threat - perhaps this freed up funding for the G11) The expansion in 1995/6 however will have resulted in a huge mix of weapons and the resulting logistics nightmare.

That was true for most units that still fielded the 7.62 on both sides at the time. In some cases in some units of the US the older M16s and Colt-15s could be older than their current users.