US Police Armored Vehicles

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

Raid gun shops, same as during the North Hollywood shootout? Start handing captured gang weapons out to the police?

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

For the sake of arguement, say that the crips and bloods break out the mortars, RPGs and HMGs and go to town on each other...I can see the LAPD freaking out and the National Guard being called out, but it would take the President to declare martial law or perhaps a Presidental Finding that has the crips/bloods acting in armed rebellion for the Regular services to be called in.

Still, it would be intresting to see the USS New Jersey cruising offshore and dropping 16-inch HE on the gangs' headquarters...maybe a squadron of A-10s rolling in hot with Mavericks and 30mm?

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by dragoon500ly

Still, it would be intresting to see the USS New Jersey cruising offshore and dropping 16-inch HE on the gangs' headquarters...maybe a squadron of A-10s rolling in hot with Mavericks and 30mm?

The New Jersey is not in service anymore...so how about an AC-130 instead?

Think about the press! Anyone remember when the Philadelphia PD dropped a bomb (just a package of explosives, really) on the apartment building where the radical group MOVES was holed up? The police got eviscerated in the press for months.

[Abbott Shaull]

If it did happen, and let not just use the the local gang from L.A. The local cops will be raiding and taking whatever firepower wherever they can get their hands on it, including raiding local Armories before the National Guard were local activated.

No matter where it happened, I am sure the local National Guard would be called up. Where it would get sketchy is when and if the US Federal Government authorize the use of the US Military against them.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

The New Jersey is not in service anymore...so how about an AC-130 instead?

Think about the press! Anyone remember when the Philadelphia PD dropped a bomb (just a package of explosives, really) on the apartment building where the radical group MOVES was holed up? The police got eviscerated in the press for months.

Yeah so do the Gangs. They realize as well as most local/State governments that there are limits that people are willing to accept. The general population don't want to feel as if they live in a police state. The local Law Enforcement knows that for most things they can handle, and many try not to think about the what if the sh!t hit the fan type stuff. They know it there, but as long as it doesn't happen on my beat they try not to dwell on it.

One thing about that one failed bank robbery, with the two bank robbers wearing the home-made bullet proof armor and how ill prepared local law enforcement was for it drove home a point. It part of the reason why many local police agency have went out of the way to better prepare their officers and SWAT teams. With some going so far as arming their some regular patrol officer with 5.56mm weapons instead of riot guns.

[Panther Al]

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

[pmulcahy11b]

In T2K, a lot of major cities will become highly factionalized ans split along gang neighborhoods. With the dearth of police available, their conflicts would intensify -- except possibly in the Southwest, where they might find themselves as strange bedfellows in resistance to Mexican and Soviet forces -- or collaborators.

[Abbott Shaull]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

It would cut into their other profits in other interests they oversea. I mean if they went around using their automatic weapons and other firepower they have at will, they will come under the microscope from the people they are supposedly trying to help and recruit.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

With popcorn and deck chairs.

[cavtroop]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

And a *lot* of gang-bangers have Iraq/AFG experience too.

lets hope it never comes to this.

[Panther Al]

When I was a recruiter they was big on trying to keep the bangers out. But what I saw while on line units was those efforts was a failure.

[dragoon500ly]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Question was asked in seriousness, and I appreciate the responses. The one question that comes to mind from what I have read, is why should we assume that the gangs are willing to play by the unwritten rules?

But not just the gangs either, there are many groups that if they could get the firepower would use it.

Yes, the ANG will be called out, and the fact that a *lot* of Iraq vets are on the beat these days will help, but what of the long term effects?

Gang bangers, at least the sucessful ones, would realize that there are certain limits that cannot be crossed. They are often buried deep in the production and distribution of illegal drugs, and you can't sell when everyone is busy using AKs on everything moving. This is part of the reason that the gang wars tend to be short, but bloody affairs, sure you have to earn your street cred, but you are also out there trying to control terriority and sell your product.

The biggest problem would be the smaller gangs, trying to cut out their own territory and get their piece of the pie, then it would become a race as to who gets them first, the larger established gangs or LEA.

While the initial thread is about gangers, I think the ones most likely to go full-auto off the deep end would be the various "militias" around the country. Especially after nukes started popping and fed/state/local government started breaking down. A lot of these groups are counting on this so that they can start their own countries ala New America...this may be the largest according to GDW...but they certainly wouldn't be the only ones.

[HorseSoldier]

Street gangs (US and otherwise) get away with what the system lets them get away with. In Brazilian cities, drug gangs maintain fortified no-go zones and when the police roll into those areas they do company and battalion level sweeps and expect to fight for ground to do it. In the US, we don't see anything on that same scale, but certainly have areas in major urban areas where a single officer or pair of guys in a single patrol car cannot safely work in.

The only thing that keeps things at a low simmer (US scenario) and not a full boil Brazilian style is that the first time someone tried to establish a serious no-go zone backed up by major firepower, they'd be crushed. But if they weren't because resources or will weren't there, it'd become a growing problem.

I could see suppressing something like this definitely involving deployment of the National Guard, though primarily in a supporting role for law enforcement. Folks in America prefer to see cops and not soldiers arresting people.

[Abbott Shaull]

It is one of the reason why each State is to maintain National Guard, and why no matter what they unit might be trained for militarily, they are trained to help local, county, and State agencies as needed. Part of the reason why many State National Guard try to have an Engineer unit and Military Police units of some type as well as the combat arms and support units. One of the many reasons too why the Army National Guard in each State usually has several detachment to spread the force out, so in theory to be better able to get help where it is needed faster.

There are some States where none of their National Guard units have only combat training for if they are federalized and the units need to help out when called up. Similar to having Regular US Army Artillery who would act as fire support unit during the day and infantry at night, or Armor units who would act as Infantry or on Convoy escort duty.

Worse is that during the last 9 years many times when they were needed for Civilian relief missions the Guard units weren't home, they were overseas, and with some of these units having been deployed up to three time or mores. It is also one of the unwritten reason why Guard combat units are still kept in certain states too. The Federal Government and some State Government realize that in some locales of have control and having lawless regions is a very thin line that is only matter time before it can be crossed.

At times especially the combat units with their dual purpose when they are still at home, helps makes it where at time their Officers will think outside of the box too.

[Abbott Shaull]

By twilight 2000 standard their is very little difference in Militia/Regular Military unit/Law Enforcement unit/Gang/Marauders other than how the locals view them. Some place will lump them all in the same group, especially in areas where food is running low and it may be what they have to pay their 'taxes' with.

While other location will view them all differently. Say Marauder group or gang who go out and bring back loot they share with the population of their home base. Or County that has well organize Sheriff and part-time militia where they keep the bandit at bay, and crime is kept at tolerable rate, even if their is some corruption. Or something like the Free City of Krakow where a military unit has stayed in place, helping to train local militia, and perform the function of local police force or have specialize units that carry out those function. While the regular troop take a proactive in clear the region of any bandits and marauders who show up.

Even today like has been pointed out, especially in the larger cities there are place where Police units stay out of unless they have back-up with them at time. Again there places like K.I. Sawyer where the old Airbase is now serving as place where closet community for Marquette, MI. One of the thing with some of the non-compete clauses people had place in renting commercial property and lot of the people live out there are on welfare and large number are into drugs. Crime is everyday fact of life, Marquette County Sheriff Department, Michigan State Police, and township police department in Guinn, Michigan don't have enough officers to have full time presence on the old base. Marquette County is one of the 5 largest counties in State of Michigan, with very light population density county-wide, but it sees the same big-city crimes that happen in places like Detroit, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and other large cities on regular basis. Not daily, but enough to that it does have certain elements of the community frustrated, and only matter time.

Much like when I lived in Detroit Lakes, MN. When ever a car was reported stolen in are near Detroit Lakes the odds were likely that the vehicle wasn't bound for chop shop, but bound for the Indian Reservation just north of town out in the back woods where the stolen vehicle would be burned after people got done joy riding and spending the evening drinking....

[pmulcahy11b]

I was just doing some research on the LAV-300 and found out that the Wichita Sheriffs Department has a LAV-300. It seems to be controversial.

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/...ew-urban-tank/

I apologize -- I just checked that link to read it again and remind myself what I was talking about at the time, and it's been pulled.

[Olefin]

Saw a Bearcat while out for my walk today at lunch (pizza place nearby that cops frequent) and that lead me to this thread

There are actually a lot of armored military vehicles in the hands of police - the question is what time frame are you looking at

Saw this article online - http://www.the109.org/2015/12/28/spe...-and-to-serve/

Gave some details on equipment that police organizations had received since 2006 from the US military - including 432 MRAP's and 400 plus other armored and military vehicles -

gives an example of a county in Texas

Since 2006, Tarrant County has a combined total of over 72 assault rifles, 29 night vision pieces, two mine resistant ambush protection vehicles (MRAPs), and one other armored vehicle, according to the Department of Defense.

and then gives this nice figure about how many vehicles have been given to law enforcement since 1990

5,512 armored and mine resistant vehicles

as for whether a municipality might have the equivalent in armored vehicles to put together an armored company lets look at LA

Now keep in mind this is more for Twilight 2013 and not the classic game

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department – Special Enforcement Bureau ×6 (One B.E.A.R, three BearCats, two Parademic or MedCats)

Los Angeles Police Department – S.W.A.T ×4 (One B.E.A.R, two BearCats and one MedCat variant)

Meaning you have ten armored cars right there before you even get into anything else they may have

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Anybody have any handle on what US Police forces or agencies are using what armored vehicles? Or weird things like the Florida Forestry Service, which has a demilled AH-1G for use in fire spotting?

They use them in California too, here is a few more old warbrids that found new homes with police department

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

In 1989 I did the Kennedy Space Centre tour whilst on holiday in Orlando and saw what looked very much like two M113's. iirc they were painted white and had the NASA logo on them.

Yes NASA dose have M113 here is a photo of one (Rescue Vehicle #1)

[swaghauler]

Check out both LENCO and TEXAS ARMORING'S websites for "reconditioned" armored vehicles as well. Many of these are police "turn ins" once the powertrain has so many hours on it.

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Panther Al

Ok, let's say that the crips and bloods go nuclear on each other, and break out the really heavy stuff. How do you think the gov and local law enforcement would react?

** Ring, Ring! **

(Austrian accented voice) "Maria! can you get da phone!"

** Ring, Ring! **

"Ach, I vill get it myelf. Verdammt hausfrau..."

** Ring, Ring! **

"Ya, ya. Schwarzenenegger residence.... Ya, dis is the Govenator."

"Vat? They are vat?"

"Okay, ya. I vill take care of it. Text me the address.... About fifteen minutes - maybe tventy if there is traffic."

"Maria! I am going down to the armory and den I haff to go out for an errand. Venn is dinner?"

(female voice) "Six thirty, dear. Remember, we are having company!."

"Don't worry... I'll be back."






Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

the worry over the Crips and Bloods having anti-tank or anti-air weaponry is very real by the way

during the riots in LA in the 90's (I was living there then) the news media was reporting that the military was preparing to possibly be engaged by gang bangers who were armed with LAW rockets - which were reported as being in small numbers in the hands of the Crips and Bloods

and considering that empty rocket launcher tubes have been turned in to the police in Los Angeles during gun buy backs on at least two occasions it is very likely they did and may still have those types of weapons

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the worry over the Crips and Bloods having anti-tank or anti-air weaponry is very real by the way

during the riots in LA in the 90's (I was living there then) the news media was reporting that the military was preparing to possibly be engaged by gang bangers who were armed with LAW rockets - which were reported as being in small numbers in the hands of the Crips and Bloods

and considering that empty rocket launcher tubes have been turned in to the police in Los Angeles during gun buy backs on at least two occasions it is very likely they did and may still have those types of weapons

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

So how about an Undercover BATFE Agent posing with a MANPADS? Yes some gangs do have ordinance and thankfully they don't usually use such things. Then again in 1995 the Banditos fired two AT-4 rockets into a Hells Angel's clubhouse.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by Rockwolf66

So how about an Undercover BATFE Agent posing with a MANPADS? Yes some gangs do have ordinance and thankfully they don't usually use such things. Then again in 1995 the Banditos fired two AT-4 rockets into a Hells Angel's clubhouse.

Neither one of these support your theory of US gangs have rocket launchers

The 1995 incident with the Banditos and Hell Angels happen in Sweden, not the US. the Anti-tank weapons were stolen from one of many weapons caches the army had placed in the country side to provide quick reaction to a Soviet Invasion during the cold war.

The picture you show is of former BATF Agent Jay Dobyns, it is displayed on his website, with the caption under cover with stinger in China Lake California 1990. Did he buy it from someone? or was he using it as part of sting operation? The whole thing looks odd and it hard to make a lot of details or the colour which would let us know if it is a real weapon system and not a trainer.

[TitusPullo]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Empty rocket launcher tubes turn up all the time, a lot of army surplus stores sell them. The ones the LAPD found were clearly army training devices. Why else would why they be marked trainer? TSA also found an empty tube in someone checked suitcase. Another one was found in New Jersey on some guys lawn lol, they not a danger once they have been fired.

Let me know when they find a real one fully loaded or an there is a explosion caused by one.

Having been in the 7th ID at the time of the riots. We were deployed to LA on that Saturday, I remember because we were on DRF1 and only aloud to travel 20 miles off the planet. Me and some of my buddies were getting ready to go out that night and party, but CQ had other plans. He had his runner come up and started yelling "Blue Bayonet!" So we were of course pissed and found out real quick we were heading to LA.

As I was in the divisional LRSD. We were part of the 1st troops in LA. Me and my platoon showed up on the tarmac wearing our war paint and had our cabbage patch tops on. We didnt get the memo stating no camo or helmets. Our 1st Sgt chewed us out. We got bullshit riot helmets when we got to LAX, but quickly put them in our rucks.

We were trucked over to a place called Huntigan park in LA, I thought it was a park not a freaking city, from there we were dispersed out into South Central. I loved it. We were hearing the rumors about anti tank and AA weapons but it was all talk.

I was a 203 gunner and the only 40 MM I was issued were star cluster, to be used in case our comms went down and we were in contact. Our SAW gunners were given only magazines, but our armorer, who was with us, hooked our gunners up with 6 drums each, just in case. LOL Then to really piss us off we got 3 or 4 CA NG assigned to us and not one of them had firing pins for there m16's, and had only two mags apiece. WTF, over. So our Armorer hooked them up with pins and spare mags.

We guarded a power substation for the duration, 7 days. The citizens welcomed us and even kept us supplied with coffee and donuts. Not one business was touched while we were guarding them.

As soon as we had our perimeter set up and established comms with Batt. we applied our war paint and boonies. The citizens and cops loved it but the shitbird gangbangers actually complained to the NG command, they laughed at em so we kept it on. The shitbirds were constantly probing us but we always had overwatch up and were constantly on 50% security the whole time. We always let them know they were number one when the came around 4 deep in the Impalas. Our ROE were not to have a mag in the weapon unless we had a deliberate act of aggression toward us or citizens. Yeah right. I asked our 1st SGT if we get into a firefight do we get a star on our CIBs. I was doing push up for an hour. But it was worth it It was my funnest deployment.

[ArmySGT.]

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

I know several police agency had retired Peacekeepers and mixture of other Cadillac Cage armor cars out there.

KCPD has a Peacekeeper, Missouri Highway Patrol uses V100's or
V150's.

[Olefin]

http://www.hstoday.us/briefings/dail...cd9643688.html

From 9/20/2011

Last month, US Border Patrol agents found a dangerous cache of military weapons along the Rio Grande while patrolling the river near Fronton, Texas not far south of the Falcon Lake dam that the Los Zetas Cartel had earlier plotted to blow up, intelligence had indicated.

The cache also was found in an area intelligence more recently indicated the Gulf Cartel had ordered its cross-border smugglers to engage Border Patrol and any other US border region law enforcement officers who get in the way of narco-smuggling operations.

Similarly, several years ago an FBI San Antonio Field Office intelligence advisory strongly warned that the Sinaloa Cartel also had ordered its street enforcers to engage US law enforcement officers to protect cartel smuggling operations across the border into the United States.

Inside the black bag Border Patrol agents found south of Falcon Lake partially hidden by brush was a Light Anti-tank Weapon (LAW) “loaded with a rocket projectile,” according to a source familiar with the seized weapons, a grenade launcher, “TNT cylinder” bombs, six automatic assault rifles and numerous extended capacity magazines, “standard M-4 hand guards” for the M16/AR15 assault rifle and a 2.5 pound C-4 “charge demolition” block in its US military olive drab Mylar wrapping.

So the answer is yes there could be gangs armed with anti-tank weapons - the question is how many other LAW's actually got into cartel gangs hands and their surrogates here in the US

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

Neither one of these support your theory of US gangs have rocket launchers

The 1995 incident with the Banditos and Hell Angels happen in Sweden, not the US. the Anti-tank weapons were stolen from one of many weapons caches the army had placed in the country side to provide quick reaction to a Soviet Invasion during the cold war.

The picture you show is of former BATF Agent Jay Dobyns, it is displayed on his website, with the caption under cover with stinger in China Lake California 1990. Did he buy it from someone? or was he using it as part of sting operation? The whole thing looks odd and it hard to make a lot of details or the colour which would let us know if it is a real weapon system and not a trainer.

It has the "soup can" inserted, don't those have a limited active life? Maybe he was getting instruction on the fun stuff.

[Rockwolf66]

Originally Posted by Olefin

http://www.hstoday.us/briefings/dail...cd9643688.html

From 9/20/2011

Last month, US Border Patrol agents found a dangerous cache of military weapons along the Rio Grande while patrolling the river near Fronton, Texas not far south of the Falcon Lake dam that the Los Zetas Cartel had earlier plotted to blow up, intelligence had indicated.

The cache also was found in an area intelligence more recently indicated the Gulf Cartel had ordered its cross-border smugglers to engage Border Patrol and any other US border region law enforcement officers who get in the way of narco-smuggling operations.

Similarly, several years ago an FBI San Antonio Field Office intelligence advisory strongly warned that the Sinaloa Cartel also had ordered its street enforcers to engage US law enforcement officers to protect cartel smuggling operations across the border into the United States.

Inside the black bag Border Patrol agents found south of Falcon Lake partially hidden by brush was a Light Anti-tank Weapon (LAW) “loaded with a rocket projectile,” according to a source familiar with the seized weapons, a grenade launcher, “TNT cylinder” bombs, six automatic assault rifles and numerous extended capacity magazines, “standard M-4 hand guards” for the M16/AR15 assault rifle and a 2.5 pound C-4 “charge demolition” block in its US military olive drab Mylar wrapping.

So the answer is yes there could be gangs armed with anti-tank weapons - the question is how many other LAW's actually got into cartel gangs hands and their surrogates here in the US

More than anyone in law enforcement wants. Through various sources it's estimated that The Hell's Angels have had a couple of dozen rocket launchers in their armory. Other gangs have been caught with rocket launchers. Most have been fired off LAW or AT-4 styled launchers. A few have been live either reloaded in an improvised manner or a stolen live launcher.