London / Mob behaviour

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

"There were also reports that youths had stormed McDonald’s and had started frying their own burgers and chips."

It was probably quite a novelty for them, since few if any of these rioters have ever held a job, from what I've heard.

[Legbreaker]

From what I've seen many did have jobs, they just didn't work...

[waiting4something]

natehale1971 it's good to see you don't buy into the media bullshit.The media today like everything else... about making money. They don't care who gets crushed or what mayhem they cause to make that money. Half the time I believe the don't research their stories or flat out write up lies.
PCP is like the worst drug you could wish that your combatant is on. Remember in the movie Terminator when the cop(Lance Henrikson) told Sarah Connor that the guy that punched through the car windshield was probably on PCP and broke every bone in his and wouldn't feel it for hours. Hell if knew someone was on pcp I would go right for the 12 gauge. 2 to the head, 1 to the chest. Playing WWE with a person with superhuman strengh sounds like a bad idea. FUCK BEING MR. NICE GUY!

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

The man was on pcp..... he's a threat. The man was beat with batons...... he was still trying to get up? That should tell you something. They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again. Sure was that the best way to get someone in custody? Don't know. I never had to deal with a guy hopped up on pcp.
The European idea of crime and punishment is different then North America. I used to think we where too soft on crime and still do in most cases. However, then I talked to a few Europeans and found out that we are the hard asses when it comes to punishment. They see us a barbarians. They are disgusted that some places still have a death penalty. I mean really why house some scum bag that will just get out and kill, rob, molest, rape, etc again and again. Sadly just like Sgt. Scott aka GR-13 in Universal Soldier says "the only way to teach them is to kill them".

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians." it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I think there would be roiting before the nuclear exchange, protesting war in general, nuclear war specifically, and an element of trouble makers.

I dont think there will be roiting after the nuclear exchange ... due to lack of people and places to riot :-)

I see it as being more like what happened with Iraq...there may be a sizeable anti war element who would make their voices heard in the period leading up to the UK's entry in to the war, but once British forces are involved the message coming out from the Government and the media would be to support the troops. That's not to say there wil be no trouble - some disorder is possible, but I think it would generally be on a smaller scale and dealt with extremely robustly by the authorities (in my Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK I suggest that one catalyst for disorder would be the introduction of conscription).

However after the nukes start flying I still think large scale disorder is much more likely in the surviving cities and towns.

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Targan

Umm... ok. Well you've made your opinions on the matter pretty clear. That part about "They took turns beating him most likely because beating people gets tiring and you need to take a break so you can beat them at 100% again", were you joking there? With text it's hard to tell. From your comment "They see us a barbarians." it seems you wear that label as a badge of pride?

We'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. Your views seem a bit extreme and frightening to me, but I'm living in a country where people don't shoot each other by the hundreds on a daily basis. Maybe if I lived in or adjacent to some low-income, gang-infested hell-hole I might feel as you do, so I'm not going to judge your opinions.

Yeah, I am serious beating people is tiring! When someone doesn't go down like they are Rocky or something. Yeah it's better to be getting some wind back before you attack again. This is why you see boxers always hugging each other in the ring they aren't really hugging they are just really tired. This is my point.
As far as other countries that see Americans as being to hard on criminal punishment it just makes me smile, because I know we are far for that. The world has taken a very limp-wristed view on holding people accountable for there actions. You can murder innocent people, because you wanted to be badass then when you serve time you expect 3 hots and a cot. Excercise, visitors, education, make new bad guy friends etc. I mean what is that college? Most of these guy's will replay the crap they did before. But some people in the world feel they deserve to be treated fairly.
The only probelm with death penalties is they cost to much with all the legal red tape it takes to get someone removed. That and we really don't get a benefit from this type of forgiveness. I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.
But, I guess guys like the Califonia Night Stalker get to just be celebs with there kooky fans writing them.

[Webstral]

Gentlemen, not only are we getting a bit off-topic, but the tenor of the opinions posted is stepping outside the drawing room. There are plenty of places where on the Internet where one can express one's opinions as thuggishly as one wishes. This is not one of those places. In keeping with our founder's vision of not restricting freedom of expression, I'm not going to say that people can't or even shouldn't express viewpoints such as those in favor of the death penalty. I will say, though, that arguments for or against should be made in a fashion that reflects a level of consideration appropriate for a gentlemen's club or a philosoph.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by waiting4something

I mean a lot of convicts could be of good use as medical test subjects. Why test a cute furry bunny that is quite different from ourselves when we can use the real thing. Someone needs a new kidney, hey we have in stock. It makes sense.

Well hey, it's been done before. Dr Josef Mengele had quite an extensive program underway during the 1940s. He was hunted for decades after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity but I guess some people might still regard his "research" as being justified.

And the Chinese government regularly harvests organs from prisoners. What a great ole bunch of happy campers the Chinese government are, right?

[waiting4something]

Originally Posted by Targan

Well hey, it's been done before. Dr Josef Mengele had quite an extensive program underway during the 1940s. He was hunted for decades after WWII for war crimes and crimes against humanity but I guess some people might still regard his "research" as being justified.

And the Chinese government regularly harvests organs from prisoners. What a great ole bunch of happy campers the Chinese government are, right?

Yes exactly, now your seeing my point. The Chinese have made lots of leaps and bounds over the years. They are kinda like our Uncle Sugar now. I don't know who else we could have gotten a handout from otherwise.

Doc Mengele, meh... some of his experiments might have been with merit, but I think on alot of accounts one could guess the outcome before it was started. I mean trying to make someone have blue eyes really isn't a improvement over brown, green, or whatever they had before.

Oh yes back to the mobs of thugs in London. Mobs are just basically a group of people having a big party at other people expenses. Just like when your drunk at a party you do stuff that really isn't thought out and just wanna be cool and fit in. Rioters are just a complete counter productive group that shits where they sleep so to say. These people most likely will act as a victim and cry for government help once the party is over. I got a kick out of the old foreign dude that was interviewed and he was all upset that the police shot someone and played the race card like it was violin.

[95th Rifleman]

We are getting into the murky business of ethics and morality in regards to crime and punishment here.

These discussions never end well as each person has their own ethical and moral stance. Some are considered overly liberal and tame while others are considered barbaric and obscene. However I will state what is essentialy the core of the European view on crime and punishment.

I can't speak for America but in Europe we have a history that goes back two thousand years. We have seen the results of barbarism and cruelty and how it doesn't really deter crime in the long run. Every European nation has instituted laws and punishments that would make the harshest American consider it inhuman and this blood has stained the hands of our nations for centuries.

This is the essence of the European "liberal" approach to crime and punishment. Perhaps we have gone a little too far in our liberalism, but we will never allow ourselves to slip back to the days when we had no true justice, but public spectacles of vengeance and blood.

Taking a life is not a valid justification for state sanctioned murder, humiliation and torture is not justice. If we, as a society, are to take the moral high ground and judge these criminals, to sentence them in punishment for their crimes we can NEVER allow ourselves to become that which we sentence, otherwise we stand for nothing but hypocrisy.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

These discussions never end well as each person has their own ethical and moral stance...

...and people can never seem to realize they have the power to just click the little red X at the top right of their browser if something is upsetting them too much.


Back to being light humored about it all though...

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

...and people can never seem to realize they have the power to just click the little red X at the top right of their browser if something is upsetting them too much.

But what if they're using an Apple?

[natehale1971]

You know... most Europeans think we use the Death Penalty willy-nilly over here. I just want you to know that is not the case. I know shows like Law & Order and the like love to show them using the Death Penalty a crapton of times. But please know that 99.9% of the time crimes that should have waranted the Death Penalty, it's not even put on the table... and the times it is put on the table (another 99.9% of the time thing here) it's to cause the gulity party to aggree to a plea bargan so they don't have to take the case to court to spare the the victim's family.

That 0.1% of the time that the Death Penalty is used there are SO many hurdles that have to be jumped and gone through to get the person executed it's not even funny. I've always felt that there should be a series of apeals courts JUST FOR DEATH PENALTY CASES. And that the cases where the death penalty is being used that the evidence has to be IRON CLAD and absolutely NO circumstansial evidence. Because the Death Penalty is final, and that we can not afford any mistakes.

I'm sorry if you think this is brutal. But there ARE some crimes that death is justified for.

Rape, Child Molestation and Murder are the three crimes that destory lives of victims and their families. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. That's one of the only two crimes in our country the Death Penalty is still allowed for here.

The other is Treason.

There are those who love to quote "Thou Shall Not Kill" for their opposition to the death penalty while supporting abortion, hypocricy of the highest order to me. While I agree that it should be legal, i do not agree that it should be used as a form of birth control... and in the United States the organization that carries them out was founded by a Nazi witch named Margret Sanger who is on the record saying she wanted to use Abortion to wipe out the African-American race along with other weeds from American society, and when 50% of African-American pregnanices are ending in Abortions it makes me wonder if she's not getting what she wanted.

But the actual phrase is NOT "Thou Shall Not Kill"... I was told by a Rabi when I was in Israel that it is actually "Thos Shall Not Commit Murder" and that murder is the unlawful taking of life. Because we Kill every time we eat something. Face it kiddies, even if you'e a Vegatarian.. you are KILLING the plantlife that you are consuming. Spock said that little bit of wisdom during an Episode of Star Trek: The Original Series.

There are some crimes that are so horendous, so out there that is an afront to ALL of society... and that the ultimate penalty, that of taking THEIR lives in response should be on the books. Even if it's nothing more as a way to force the guilty to except 25 years to life in prision instead of the possiblity of being executed for their crimes when it comes to a trail that will put victims and their families through a painful hell.

And as I have said before... this is coming from someone who's material aunt was convicted of killing her lover, and could have been executed for her crimes but was found to be guilty of second degree manslaughter beause she was not in her right mind at the time she killed Rose.

And even SHE agreed that we needed a death penalty on the books, right up until the say she died of cancer. Of course she knew alot of really nasty people in prison she said really deserved to be on Death Row, or kept locked away in a tiny hole a mile underground to keep society safe from them.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But what if they're using an Apple?

But what if they're using an Apple?
they're using an Apple?
using an Apple?
Apple?


Me reading this post...

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I'm sorry if you think this is brutal. But there ARE some crimes that death is justified for.

There's 2 problems I have with this.

One is that it does not seem to be an effective deterrent for Americans.
-States with capital punishment have on average a greater homicide rate (5.2).
-States without capital punishment have on average a lower homicide rate (3.3).

A difference of 35%.

In another way of looking at it, if you ranked US states by homicide rates, all but one of the top 20, would be states that have the death penalty.

Internationally speaking, besides Japan*, only third world countries still use capital punishment (concentrated in Africa, middle east, and parts of asia). Europe and Canada don't, and despite having an equivalent standard of living, they experience far less homicide rates. CP just doesn't seem to be working for America.

*Japan only executed 2

That lumps the USA in with countries like this for top ten lists...
People's Republic of China - Thousands executed
Iran 252+ executed
North Korea 60+ executed
Yemen 53+ executed
United States 46 executed
Saudi Arabia 27+ executed
Libya 18+ executed
Syria 17+ executed
Bangladesh 9+ executed
Somalia 8+ executed

The other problem I have with this, is wrongful execution. Of the thousands of people executed over the last century (especially before DNA), how many people do you think we killed for something they didn't do? IMO, if you answer more than one, it is an immoral means to deal with crime.

Thanks

[natehale1971]

I knew this wouold come up, it always does. So I'll just say this..

Fusillier look at the landry list off 'Crimes' that an you get executed in those countries. I was expecting someone to bring that up. They use the death penality for damn near anything... adultry, execution. homosexuality, execution. being seen in public with a man who is not related to you, exectuted, ect. The difference beween the US and those states is just what it takes to put someone on Death Row. LIke i said, you only get there after a series of things that goes on behind the scenes trying to come up with OTHER WAYS OF DEALING with the problem.

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes. That there should be criminal courts whose entire job is to deal with death penality cases when they are brought up in Superior Court, and then over to a serious set of Appeals Courts that ddoes in there as well. And ANY apparent illegularities woule get the case tossed bck down to be retried.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

They use the death penalty for damn near anything...

And it doesn't work obviously. That's my point.

The death penalty doesn't prevent crime.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

nor did you read where i stated that there are places that it should be reformed and cleaned up that would get rid of the possibility that an innocent man or woman would be found guilty and executed for someone elses crime or crimes.

I did read it. But since you can't be 100% certain 100% of the time, it is irrelevant in my opinion.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

I knew this wouold come up, it always does.

That should be a clear indication to you then that something is wrong.

[natehale1971]

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes from being homosexual to actual crimes. I eve wrote dow WHY the pentalty is used, and thefact it's not used as often as it should, and when it's used that it's used to get guilty people to agree to pleed guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

Are you really saying that no one deserrves to be executed for their crimes? Mass Murder, Genocide, Rape Camps and the like? All these are crimes against humanity. And like it or not, there are people in our world who are doing things just as horrible on a daily basis who needs to be punished. And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'dd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong?

My campaigns are pretty straight forward. When the PCs had access to sending EPOWS to the rear to the stockade and holding camps. at the Cantonments, it was as simple as that. But when they didn't have that ability, they more times more than not stripped them of everything they had of value, marked them and said taht if they were ever encountere again they'd be executed. The execution of EPOW was something that only happened if it was apsoluately necessary. and if they had been caught doing something horrendous (rape, child rape, murder and a few other nasty things)

Using your exmaples... these two countries have entrely different versions of what gets you capital punishiment, and it's NOTHING like what we have here.

In the People's Republic of China there are 55 criminal offences that are eligible for the death penalty. Many of these offences are non-violent and economic criminal offences. The following are just a few of them.

Crimes of Endangering Public Security

1. Committing arson, breaching a dike, causing explosion, spreading poison or inflicting serious injury or death on people or causes heavy losses of public or private property by other dangerous means.
2. Sabotaging any means of transport, transportation facility, electric power facility, gas facility, or inflammable or explosive equipment, thereby causing serious consequences
3. Any hijacker who causes serious injury to or death of any other person or serious damage to aircraft
4. Illegally manufacturing, trading, transporting, mailing or storing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
5. Stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives in serious circumstances.
6. Robbery of any guns, ammunition or explosives or stealing or forcibly seizing any guns, ammunition or explosives from State organs, members of the armed forces, the police or the people's militia
7. Producing or selling fake medicines that cause death especially if serious harm is done to human health.
8. Whoever mixes the foods that he produces or sells with toxic or harmful non-food raw materials or knowingly sells such foods that cause death or especially serious harm.

Crimes of Smuggling

9. Smuggling drugs, weapons, ammunition, nuclear materials or counterfeit currency if circumstances are serious.

Crimes of Disrupting the Order of Financial Administration


11. Whoever counterfeits currencies and
a. being a ringleader of a gang engaged in counterfeiting currencies;
b. having counterfeited currencies in especially huge, amounts; or
c. being involved in other especially serious circumstances.

Crimes of Infringing Upon Citizens' Right of the Person and Democratic Rights.

17. Intentionally commits homicide
18. Intentionally inflicting injury upon another person AND if he/she causes death to the person or, by resorting to especially cruel means, causes severe injury to the person, reducing the person to utter disability
19. Raping a woman or has sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 14 in any of the following circumstances:
(1) the circumstances being flagrant;
(2) raping a number of women or girls under the age of 14;
(3) raping a woman before the public in a public place;
(4) raping a woman with one or more persons in succession; or
(5) causing serious injury or death to the victim or any other serious consequences.
20. Unlawfully detaining another person or unlawfully deprives the personal freedom of another person by any other means AND if he causes injury, disability or death to the victim by violence.
21. Unlawfully detaining or confines another person in order to get payment of a debt does the same in (20)
22. Where a functionary of a State organ commits any of the crimes mentioned in (20).
23. Kidnapping another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage AND Whoever kidnaps another person for the purpose of extorting money or property or kidnaps another person as a hostage.
24. Abducting and trafficking in a woman or child AND if the circumstances are especially serious beyond the following:
(1) being a ringleader of a gang engaged in abducting and trafficking in women and children;
(2) abducting and trafficking in three or more women and/or children;
(3) raping the woman who is abducted and trafficked in;
(4) enticing or forcing the woman who is abducted and trafficked in to engage in prostitution, or selling such woman to any other person who would force her to engage in prostitution;
(5) kidnapping a woman or child by means of violence, coercion or anaesthesia for the purpose of selling the victim;
(6) stealing a baby or an infant for the purpose of selling the victim;
(7) causing serious injury or death to the woman or child who is abducted and trafficked in or to her or his relatives or any other serious consequences; or
(8) selling a woman or a child out of the territory of China.

Other


Illegally selling or transfers weapons or equipment of the armed forces AND if a large amount of weapons or equipment is sold or transferred or if there are other especially serious circumstances involved.
Any serviceman who, during wartime, cruelly injures innocent residents in an area of military operation or plunders their money or property AND if the circumstances are serious.


Capital punishment is legal and applied in Iran. Capital crimes are murder, rape, adultery, pedophilia, sodomy, drug trafficking, moharebeh (waging war on people or God) and mofsed-e-filarz (spreading corruption on earth). Various sources claim that up to 312 people were executed in Iran in 2010, the commonly accepted number being around 180. The overwhelming majority were drug traffickers, and virtually all executions are carried out for murder, aggravated rape, large scale drug trafficking, and armed robbery (cases usually resulting in rape/death).

Iran has garnered Western media attention and criticism for allegedly carrying out lethal punishments, like stoning, and executions of minors, despite having signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which forbids executing "child" offenders for crimes committed under the age of 18. However, Iran claims dispensation in cases where the Convention is deemed "incompatible with Islamic jurisprudence". An Iranian judiciary spokesman fiercely denied that it executes juvenile criminals or stones people to death, describing it as "propaganda against Iranian state" Iran is alleged to have the second highest execution rate in the world, second to China, although other countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, Nigeria and many more allegedly carry out secret executions.

Executions of women in Iran happen less often, and only account for a handful of executions every year. Only four women were executed in Iran in 2010.

Death sentences in Iran are in theory legal for eight different crimes: armed robbery, treason, murder, drug trafficking, rape, pedophilia, sodomy, kidnapping and terrorism.

[Fusilier]

Lemme put it this way again...

Innocent people in the United States have been, and will be, executed for crimes they didn't commit. From a morale stand point, I can't support such a system. It is unacceptable in my mind to utilize a system that kills innocent people.

That's my main counter argument why I think it is barbaric.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

You know Fus, you just don't get WHY the Peath Penalty is used, how it is suppose to be used and what is accomplished with it.

I'd wager, neither do Americans since your homicide rates are through the roof despite your electric chairs and lethal injections.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

You are lumping the US with counties who use the death penality will-nilly for a wide range of crimes

To show that even with the death penalty these willy-nilly crimes still occur. The death penalty neither prevented the crime from happening or stopped future crimes from happening.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

...it's used to get guilty people to agree to plead guilty for lesser charges that will get them in jail for 25 to life so that they won't have to face the death penalty when they go before a court.

What about those who aren't guilty? How do they react to this coercion?

Originally Posted by natehale1971

And sometimes their criminal acts are just so damn hanious that they deserve to be remmoved from God's Green Earth.

I never said they didn't need to be removed - from society.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Comparing the US who only exectes fro TWO reasons to countries who have massively different ways to decide to go with executions...

Your system is not perfect either. Hence, my earlier point of innocent people being executed for something they didn't commit.

Originally Posted by natehale1971

Are you saying that in your T2k World that something like this happening, you'd just slap them on their hands and let them go with a pat on their head and runalong?

That is a strawman argument.

I never said anything about slapping people on the hands and letting them go. Unless you can site where I said criminals shouldn't be punished, you are deliberately misrepresenting me. For the matter, I believe in rehabilitation for criminals and separating those from society who are beyond rehabilitation. You know... how the country's with much lower homicide rates do it. It seems to be working for them after all.

In the fiction of Tw2000, there isn't the means to properly do this under the extraordinary situations so I don't think it applies to today. And it wouldn't make it right anyways - it would simply be an immoral requirement.

[Raellus]

Hey fellas, opinions clearly run the gamut here and passion can sometimes get the better of us. Let's try to keep the tone respectful. I think this debate is OK to have and, IMHO, no one has quite overstepped the bounds of what is acceptable here, but let's make sure that we're not getting carried away and shooting from the hip.

At the very beginning of my PotV PbP, a PC summarily executed a bound and wounded marauder prisoner. The IC and OOC debate surrounding this IG act led to at least one player quitting the game and it almost sank the campaign before it really even began. What I'm trying to say is that this is a very touchy subject and we need to keep that in mind while engaging in mature and respectful discussions.

[natehale1971]

Fusilier you are thinking that we don't have ways to find innocents to make sure that they aren't executed. What was it about all those hoops that has be be jumped through to just get someone to be charged with a Death Penalty case, and after conviction to get executed. There are safeguards all through the progame. And it's not just bam you're guilty, then taken out back and executed.

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.

Do you think i want an inncoent person to be put to death? YOu're making the 'strawman' assumption that is the case. Becaue it's not. I would rather a thousand guilty go free than have ONE innocent man go to jail or be put to death.

I want to make sure only those who deserve to be put down are done so. And if you would have read about how i feel it should be inacted, that the level of needs of evidence that would be used to convict them.

I've given you ther reasons WHY we need the death penalty. It's thought out and backed up with history. And the fact that we've not to my knowledge executed innocents in this country should show just how deeply these cases are investigated and prosecuted. I would rather we didn't need to have the death penalty. But using it as a bargeting chip during negotations happening behind the scenes and having it for those criminals how DESERVE it is just to great of a need to just throw it out.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by natehale1971

You go through a series of appeals that the taxpayers pay for. that investigates all aspects of the crime and how they were found guilty. To date it looks as if NONE have been executed falsely. the average time spent on death row are 20 years or more. during that time they are going through their appeals.

Really? I'd like to see the sources substantiating this claim. I'm pretty sure that I've heard of more than a couple of cases where people were executed only for evidence (usually DNA that could not be processed due to non-existent technology) to surface exonerating them. If this is not the case, I'd love to be proven wrong. The execution of innocents is one of my biggest objections to capital punishment- that, and the lack of evidence backing it as a deterent to crime.

[kato13]

This thread is now 100% political so I am locking it.