German III Corps?

[Raellus]

I agree that on the face of it- especially considering the principals of conventional land warfare established over the last 70 years- that the V Corps offensive described in canon doesn't make perfect sense.

On the other hand, one has to consider that by the summer of 2000, warfare has changed somewhat. Gone are the days of continuous fronts, operational defense in depth, and so on. Heck, by 2000, units have to grow their own food! Under the circumstances prevailing at that [fictional] time, I believe the Summer Offensive of T2K canon is plausible.

I agree that the ORBAT could do with some modifications, but I am also of the opinion that the alternative history established in canon should not be altered too much. If things aren't addressed in canon, then by all means they can and should be fleshed out. But, if they are specifically mentioned in canon, ways should be found to reconcile discrepencies with RL before wholesale changes are made.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Perhaps T2Kers should take a page from the classic Sci-Fi RPG Traveller which encourages players to deviate from canon when it suits their gaming needs. They even have acronyms for personalized game settings- MTU (my Traveller Universe), YTU (Your Traveller Universe), etc.

[Targan]

I agree with everything Raellus said in the previous post.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Once again, REAL LIFE FACT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism?!"

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Well, somebody's thinking! Realism's great -- to a point, and T2K demands more than most games, but it can be taken too far. Rules lawyers drive me insane. I remember playing D&D with rules lawyers, and you finally just burst out, "You're fighting an Ogre Magi and you want absolute realism?!"

So true, so true

[Marc]

Bona dia!


I like the argumentation of Legbreaker about the NATO offensive. In fact, I've translated it to Catalan to use it in my current campaign. Sadly I have not all the material published about T2K but Legbreaker's description has given to me a good overall vision of the canon operation. I will only add one point of my own harvest but without going too far away from the canon. I 've just started a new campaign with two group of players and with the characters being members of the 5th Infantry Division, but chronologically beginning with the initial stages of the NATO offensive. I've chosen to run a mini-campaign that will end with the Battle of Kalisz, as a way to introduce my players to the Twilight world in a more "guided way", still being members of an operational military structure. And, with great pleasure for me, they are newbies in the Twilight world and totally unaware of the fate that waits for the 5th ID in Kalisz.


In my initial setup, the position of the Canadian, American and British units in Germany is somewhat embarrassing. They have not adopted the cantonment system yet, knowing that it probably implies the future inability to develop any future offensive action. But they lack the resources to keep their units fully operational without exerting some kind of serious control about an extensive area, like the German units in their cantonments. So they are partially supplied of food and fuel provided by the Germans. This have originated a growing discontent among the overstretched civilians living in the German cantonments. Of course civilian population still feel a certain degree of gratitude toward their allied units. But they think that a lot of time has passed without any important activity in the European theater. Americans , British and Canadians have an important problem in the growing numbers of desertions. A lot of soldiers think that in he current situation their parent units could not provide the necessary means of support and that their lives could be better if they look for their own interest in small groups beyond the military structure. Every day, more soldiers choose to desert. The idea of a possible evacuation to their respective countries acts still as powerful cohesion factor, but morale is low. Finally, the decision about a new offensive is made.The objective is to obtain the lands for the future cantonments for the US, Brits and Canadians. The Germans, feeling in debt, will help, though they are reluctant to leave their cantonment areas partially unprotected and some warning voices point that a new major action in Poland could reactivate the war in Europe. The XI Corps, the bulk of the non-German forces in the German - Poland area, would lead the way. The final effort that could provide to NATO units with their own feuds, avoiding their disintegration as a combatative force.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Snake Eyes

The 5th was sacrificed as a smokescreen to cover the Reset mission in Lodz.

I've found this quote in the "Free city of Krakow" module by chance, while preparing my campaign:

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."

It looks like, as good scriptwriters, the people of GDW were trying to leave some loose ends to tie up.

[Targan]

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Marc

"... The operation was code-named Reset, and Strike Zulu was hurriedly organized to coincide with the big offensive. In some circles, the offensive was considered to be a diversion for Operation Reset. ..."

...and I think that completely destroys anyones arguement for the US 5th ID being sent to Lodz for Reset.
The only plausible explaination the 5th was so far south is if they were just one small part of a much bigger picture. One little SF mission, important as it may be, is far from sufficient to warrant sacrificing an entire division (especially one of the strongest in Nato prior to the offensive).
Simply put, the 5th were destroyed due to a long line of bad intel, decisions and (I hate to say it) luck.

[kato13]

The writers exaggerated RESETs importance to make the players feel the mission was more important. The modules expose the players to quite a few "only one left" or "world altering" situations. The last train, the last Attack sub, the last Boomer, cold fusion information, General Cummings granddaughter, 486 tons of gold, the only satellite containing world altering information. These are just the ones I remember offhand.

Trying to have a single group of soldiers, by chance, performing all of these missions is going to require a step back from reality. That is why it is so hard to reconcile some parts of canon.

edit forgot Reset Itselt, THe Black Madonna, The Pennslyvania cache, the blimps
will add more as I remember.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Targan

OT question from someone who has never visited Spain - how different is Catalan to Spanish?

I suppose that you're talking about the language, Targan. If not, please correct me. Catalan is just another romanic language that evolves from the common Latin in parallel to the French, the Castilian (Spanish) or the Italian, among others. The distance between Spanish and Catalan could be equivalent to the distance that exists between Italian and Spanish, or between Portuguese and Spanish. Basically, and open-minded spanish, can easily understand a conversation in Catalan in one month. And of course, he or she can try to speak in Catalan with the same ease. Catalan coexists with the Spanish as official language in Catalonia. It's a common fact (and a dangerous fact for the survival of my language) that the catalan switch from one language to the other without realizing it, in function of the language used by the other speaker. So, a lot of immigrants from the rest of Spain, though understanding the Catalan,choose not to speak it.

Ah! Finally, we do not use the spanish ñ, but we do use ` ¨ ç

[Haven]

Originally Posted by kato13

The writers exaggerated RESETs importance to make the players feel the mission was more important. The modules expose the players to quite a few "only one left" or "world altering" situations. The last train, the last Attack sub, the last Boomer, cold fusion information, General Cummings granddaughter, 486 tons of gold, the only satellite containing world altering information. These are just the ones I remember offhand.

Trying to have a single group of soldiers, by chance, performing all of these missions is going to require a step back from reality. That is why it is so hard to reconcile some parts of canon.

edit forgot Reset Itselt, THe Black Madonna, The Pennslyvania cache, the blimps
will add more as I remember.

Bingo! Which is why I've never been one to use the 'canon' scenarios to play and only to provide additional background info that everyone can agree on.

If you do choose to use the canon i think you should already be prepared to accept some 'wha?' moments like why the 5th would be so far south (or find a reason for them to be - like this thread is discussing).

Pick your FICTION.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Although the books state the aim of the offensive was to clear the Baltic coast of Pact forces, the presence of the US 5th in the Lodz area implies a more ambitious objective - that of swinging behind the Soviet lines and potentially cutting their line of supply (minimal as it is in 2000). The very threat alone of encirclment, even partial encirclement would force the Soviet and Polish unit to withdraw at least several hundred kilometres.

A very interesting supposition. I like it. Certainly, the occupation of Poland west of the Warta would have been a high priority for the Germans. I do believe that SACEUR would have wanted the Baltic coast cleared as far east as possible for access to fishing and shipping. Nevertheless, causing the Pact forces in western Poland to withdraw east and south would have provided NATO with a lot of advantages. As an added extra-special bonus, a southward thrust oriented behind the "front line" Pact forces in western Poland would have been a far less costly means of displacing the Pact formations than frontal attacks. The light infantry actions of 1999 would have revealed that both sides were building extensive defensive works that would be expensive to break by frontal assault. All very interesting...


Webstral

[Marc]

Bon dia!

We're still working in the material of our future site and we would like to add the following map about the 3rd German Army in northern Poland:

Ofensiva2.pdf



The map is based in Legbreaker's analysis about the operation and our purpose is to give only a visual help for the referees running our pre-Kalisz campaign, with only the "main lines" of the NATO plotted movements. The typical map we find in the history books without entering in many details.Take into account that it is a map about the plan and not about the development of the offensive itself. Before add it to our site I would like to know any opinion from you, guys. Do you think that anything important must be changed or added?

Of course, the initial positions are fruit of our imagination, but we have followed the clue that we know that the British Army was facing the Soviets around Frankfurt and that the 5th ID starting point was in the Chojnice/Człuchów area. So we have chosen the line between Frankfurt and Chojnice/Człuchów to distribute the starting positions for the NATO units implied in the offensive, roughly along the main road between Gorzów Wielkopolski and Gdansk.

Thanks in advance!

[Marc]

Mmmmm... I've just edited the map in he last post. All the units and lines seemed to be displaced to the east.

[Legbreaker]

From my research for the analysis, the north end of the start line is way too far east. With a startline where you've marked, it makes much of the first few weeks of the offensive a cakewalk for NATO, totally changing the ultimate outcome. I'll try to mark out the start positions as I assessed them in the next few days.

I also envisaged the offensive as more of a fish hook in shape, III Corp pushing eastward several hundred kilometres before swinging south to cut off Pact units, or at least threaten encirclment against the mountains to the south.

The 2nd Marines were also conducting an encirclement operation, but on a much smaller scale. It was their task to take the river delta, but also push inland to cut off the northern Polish troops and allow the 8th ID an easier time of it.

Obviously almost no unit actually reached their objectives for a variety of reason. However, the 8th was probably the most sucessfull of all the NATO divisions, overshooting their objective by an embarassing distance.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

From my research for the analysis, the north end of the start line is way too far east. With a startline where you've marked, it makes much of the first few weeks of the offensive a cakewalk for NATO, totally changing the ultimate outcome. I'll try to mark out the start positions as I assessed them in the next few days.

Great, then I will redraw the map with your modified initial positions.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I also envisaged the offensive as more of a fish hook in shape, III Corp pushing eastward several hundred kilometres before swinging south to cut off Pact units, or at least threaten encirclment against the mountains to the south.

I've drawn the plotted movements of the German III Corp in south-east direction to not interfere with the path of the 5th ID as described in "Escape from Kalisz". Perhaps it would be better to make this movement a little longer and then turn them to the south or even the south-west to look for the soviet rear, with the fish hook shape you say.

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The 2nd Marines were also conducting an encirclement operation, but on a much smaller scale. It was their task to take the river delta, but also push inland to cut off the northern Polish troops and allow the 8th ID an easier time of it.

Obviously almost no unit actually reached their objectives for a variety of reason. However, the 8th was probably the most sucessfull of all the NATO divisions, overshooting their objective by an embarassing distance.

One possibility is to attribute part of the success of the 8th to a quick victory over the Polish units directly in its path of advance before the other Polish units "dissoluted" in front of the III Corps (or even in front of the 5th ID) initiated their movement toward the north to harass the left flank of the NATO. Althought the 8th archieved successful deep penetration, a more slower advance could have helped to consolidate the Baltic Coast wiht the 5th Armored and the 2nd Marines once the things started to fall apart.

BTW: What about the gap between the 50th Armored and the 5th ID. Perhaps it was supposed to be covered by the Canadians and the 116th ACR?Could they delay in disengage from the British/Soviet "front" have been the cause for the dangeroulsy exposed left flank of the 5th ID?

[Marc]

Mmmm...I've just noticed I missed the proper symbol for the 21th Panzergrenadier Division. I will arrange it in the next version of the map.

Another possibility is that the 50th Armored was to follow the advance of the 5th ID, covering its right flank, while the Canadians and the 116 ACR must fill the gap between the 50th and the 8th. Again, the delay of these two units forced the harassing Polish units from the south could be the critical factors before the start of the Soviet counteroffensive.

[Legbreaker]

Quote:
"Meanwhile amphibious landings were to be made by the 2nd MARDIV across the river estuaries of northern Poland with the 8th ID heading further east to cut lines of any hope of reinforcement from Russia. The 50th Armoured Division was to fill the gap between the 5th and 8th while 116th ACR and Can 4th Mech Bde were held in reserve.

The remainder of the 3rd Army were tasked with filling the gap between the 5th ID and the British forces. They, like the British, had barely reached the start line recently vacated by the US units before the Soviet 4th Guards Army screwed everything up."

XI Corp were to be the spearhead with the German Divisions following along behind. It would have been up to the Germans to protect the southern flank allowing the Americans to remain on the offensive.

Unfortunately the Pact forces moved before the Germans could really get moving and so the US 50th AD, 116 ACR and Canadian 4th Mechanised Brigade had to be pulled form the offensive and retasked to flank and supply line protection. After the dust settled, the Germans (and British) had barely moved from the cantonments they'd been occupying for the previous year or two. Ultimately this was a good thing (or as good as could be hoped for) as only the US 5th and 8th ID were lost instead of most of an army...

[Cdnwolf]

Okay just a query... with all the unrest happening in Canada... what the heck were the troops still doing over in Europe?

But great information folks...

I would still love to see more of what happened in the Austria, Hungary, Italy region and anything on the importance of the Danube River in the war.

[Legbreaker]

Why are there US troops still in Iraq even though the US is apparently having "cash flow" issues?

Politics has to play a big part both there and in T2K.

More impportantly perhaps, at least on a day to day level, is the severe lack of available transportation to take them home again.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Politics has to play a big part both there and in T2K.

So true. After the US governmental scism both MilGov and CivGov continued to send troops to Europe despite those troops being desperately needed at home. That seems to me to have been mostly politically motivated (and perhaps a case of "one upmanship").

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by Targan

So true. After the US governmental scism both MilGov and CivGov continued to send troops to Europe despite those troops being desperately needed at home. That seems to me to have been mostly politically motivated (and perhaps a case of "one upmanship").

It's so completely [expletive deleted] up that it rings true. I abhor the idea, therefore I love it.

Webstral

[Cdnwolf]

I meant the CANADIAN troops only...lol.

Okay heres something that I am curious about... what happened in Europe after the American troops came home?

I think I read something about it in one of the DC group papers but wasn't sure.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Cdnwolf

I meant the CANADIAN troops only...lol.

Okay heres something that I am curious about... what happened in Europe after the American troops came home?

I think I read something about it in one of the DC group papers but wasn't sure.

Going Home module has some insight to this.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Going Home module has some insight to this.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=9184#post9184 should give you an idea or two.
Basically the Canadians, along with the rest of what's left of the XI Corp (less the 8th ID), are stuck. They're not technically behind enemy lines, but to withdraw back into Germany requires movement into and through Pact controlled areas.

[Raellus]

I'm still having trouble reconciling 3rd Army's failed offensive with the Soviet/WTO forces present in northern Poland.

What Soviet and WTO units are involved in attempting to cut off the 3rd Army spearheads along the Baltic Coast? The map in the v2.2 rulebook and the unit location listings in the U.S., Soviet, and NATO vehicle guides don't place any powerful Soviet/WTO units in the north. For the most part, the only WTO listed near the Baltic coast are weak horse cavalry and BG units. The Polish 9th MRD is the only WTO unit in the region with any significant armor/heavy weapons.

5th ID's destruction makes plenty of sense considering the correlation of forces in the Lodz-Kalisz area. Based on the mauling the 5th ID gave most of the Soviet and WTO units involved in its destruction, it doesn't seem like those units could have turned north to stop significant NATO 3rd Army forces or even threaten its right flank enough to halt operations along the Baltic Coast.

As Leg pointed out, 3rd Army contains two tank divisions, five mechanized infantry/panzergrenadier divisions, one Marine division, and an ACR. It shouldn't have had any trouble clearing the coast and sending additional units south to support 5th ID.

If it's a case of halting units due to a larger Soviet counteroffensive to the south, why are the units of the 3rd Army still listed as being in northern Poland and Germany? One would assume that if they were stopped due to pressure on the UK forces in west-central Poland, at least a few of the units (probably the 3 German divisions) would be shifted south to shore up the British or attempt to retake ground lost to the Reds. From looking at the correlation of forces in the UK area of responsibility, it looks like the Soviet and WTO units could pretty easily take Berlin if they wanted too. Yet canon shies away from even mentioning a broader Soviet or NATO offensive. They make it sound like the 3rd Army's offensive is the only show in town.

I don't know what the game designers were thinking to make NATO so much more powerful in the north and the Soviets significantly more powerful in the south. The situation as of late July 2000 would make much more sense if the forces were more evenly matched along the front.

And then there's the status report for the 2nd Marine Div. in the U.S. Army Vehicle Guide. It says that the location and status of the division is unkown after its amphib assaults along the Baltic Coast. This suggests that it is in a state of distress. If the 8th Mech. ID's location in LATVIA (I still don't know what the designers were thinking there) is known, then something must be wrong with the Marines. Trouble is, I just don't see a bunch of relatively small Polish horse cavalry and BG units being able to crush a Marine division. Wouldn't the 8th ID and Marines have operated together for at least part of the duration of the 8th drive to Latvia? What about other follow-on 3rd Army units? Besides the 5th ID, what are the German armored and PZGr units doing? Or the Canadians, Danes, and U.S. TD and ACR? More than 75% of the 3rd Army is unaccounted for during its offensive. If the Germans aren't participating, why is an American Corps subordinated to them? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'm really trying to explain the offensive's failure. 5th ID's part in it is clear cut but the rest is a muddled mess. Are there any Challenge articles about the rest of the summer offensive?

It just doesn't make any sense.

[Raellus]

After a little more research, it's clear that there are a couple more relatively powerful Polish divisions in the Baltic region that could have helped blunt 3rd Army's offensive. In particular, the 1st MRD (2500/7), the 9th MRD (2500/10), and the 5th TD (3500/16). There's also the 17th CD (2000), 12th CD (1500), 3rd CD (1000), and 7th MarDiv (only 600 men but presumably "elite" troops).

I also went looking for Soviet units in the Baltic states that could have been sent to deal with 3rd Army. Most of the units listed as being in the Ukraine are either in full revolt or engaged in attempting to suppress it so I figure they would be busy and unavailable. A couple of units in Belarus are also listed as being engaged fighting the Ukranian separatists so that eliminates them.

The following units are posted in Belarus and apparently unengaged during 3rd Army's offensive and could therefore have participated in a counterattack. Units marked with an asterix are the ones I see as being most likely to be involved.

22nd TD (2000)
3rd MRD (2000/10)*
138th MRD (4000/20)*
83rd AAB (600)*

The following units are posted in Latvia. One issue here is the 26th GMRD's (4000/28) mutiny (they are garrisoning the newly free city of Riga). I would assume, therefore, that the other, loyal Soviet units listed in Riga are probably going to be busy dealing with the 26th. On the other hand, maybe the Soviets have assessed the threat posed by 3rd Army's offensive as being much greater and have decided to deal with it first. That could free up the following units for a counterattack against the 3rd Army.

40th GMRD (500/4)
40th MRD (500/4) -an odd coincidence but that's what the v1.0 SVG says.
107th MRD (4000/36)*

If the above units- or just a few of them- were involved in a counterattack against 3rd Army's offensive, it would explain a lot.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, the 3rd does appear to be very strong on the face of it, but they also have a terrible weakness - fuel.
In my assessment of the offensive written a while back, I came to the conclusion that the 2nd Marines had to have suffered some sort of catasrophy and the units following along behind the 5th and 8th had to have been held up.

The most appropriate event I could think of for the marines was the sinking of their supply ship and almost total loss of fuel reserves. This meant their mobility and firepower suddenly became a lead weight around their necks as they were reduced to rationing what little was left in vehicle tanks and operating on foot.

The poor state of units in northern Poland as shown in Canon are after the offensive - they'd been battered and torn apart by the 5th, 8th, 2nd marines and then 50th AD and assorted smaller units. While not particularly strong or capable of significant offensive action on their own, they were still a thorn in the side of XI Corp and needed to be hedged in. Therefore, until the following German units could be brought up, the 50th AD, 116 ACR and the Canadians had to pause their forward movement and secure the flanks.

Unfortunately, the Pact forces in the south took offensive action of their own shortly after Nato began it's eastward move. I've had them apply pressure to the southern areas as well as drive northward towards the Baltic Sea to cut off the XI Corps. With the pressure placed upon the British, the Germans had little option but to reinforce Southern Germany instead of following the US XI Corp, or risk the Soviets breaking through into some of their most important lands.

The Pact forces did not act in response to the Nato offensive - they had planned the attack months, if not a year or more ahead. I envisiage they intended to place the bulk of their effort into the south, however Nato moved first. To prevent the Pact offensive being cut off they had two options - withdraw as was hoped by Nato command, or modify their plans. They chose the latter and took a chance - this of course was to redirect their reinforcement units nortward to cut of the XI Corp, much like Nato was trying to do to the Soviets.

Neither side suceeded, or at least not as well as they'd hoped. The Pact forces battered themselves to exhaustion against the British, Germans and US units in Western Poland but did manage to fix the XI Corp in position in north west Poland where they still were in November. The units around Kalisz were rushed in from Russia and the Ukraine using fuel from Romania. I'm certain this move had not been intended as part of their offensive, but was prompted by a very strong US infantry division wandering about in central Poland causing no end of trouble. If these units had been intended to take part in the offensive, they would have been brought up much slower in the months beforehand, thereby saving the hundreds of thousands of litres of petroleum based fuels.

Nato managed to halt the Pact offensive, however lost the two US divisions who had made it to their objective areas (5th and 8th). They also ended up with the rest of XI Corp effectively cut off from Nato lines (although otherwise in reasonable shape). Nato probably gained more ground than the Pact overall, but only because they moved first (the area XI Corp is squatting on). Nato's offensive also spoiled what would have been a devastating Pact offensive in that it caused Pact reinforcements to be redeployed, easing pressure in the south and allowing those Nato units to survive.

I hope that rambling makes sense.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

In my assessment of the offensive written a while back, I came to the conclusion that the 2nd Marines had to have suffered some sort of catasrophy and the units following along behind the 5th and 8th had to have been held up.

The most appropriate event I could think of for the marines was the sinking of their supply ship and almost total loss of fuel reserves. This meant their mobility and firepower suddenly became a lead weight around their necks as they were reduced to rationing what little was left in vehicle tanks and operating on foot.

A really severe, unforseen storm would do the job nicely. Entirely plausible too.

[Legbreaker]

I think I had a couple of Soviet coastal patrol boats or similar torpedo the largest of the cargo ships right after the bulk of the combat vehicles had been offloaded. Left the 2nd with plenty of firepower for the intial landing, but once the fuel in the tanks ran out...