RPG Forums

Go Back   RPG Forums > Role Playing Game Section > Twilight 2000 Forum
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #31  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:17 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Thanks for the positive comments. Is everyone happy with the orbats and the inclusion of new German Army units then?

I've tried to create a realistic account of how German forces would develop in the later stages of the Twilight War. I've largely stuck with divisions as opposed to smaller units which can be hard to fit into a larger orbat. I was going to add an orbat for American, British and French forces in Germany as well but I think it might have distracted from the rest of the article.

I would like to add further to the article in the future.

The regional section needs some expansion. If I had the time I could double the coverage on the regions and cities of Germany and add some new sections on cities that I only covered briefly. But there is so much to write about and research and its hard to fit everything in.

The weapons and equipment section also needs some work, also maybe some more information on the equipment of the Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. I'd like to do it in more detail in the future such as in the GDW sourcebooks or on Paul Mulcahy's website.

Also if anyone wants to add some characters their more than welcome to put them up.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:42 PM
raketenjagdpanzer's Avatar
raketenjagdpanzer raketenjagdpanzer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,261
Default

Actually a US ORBAT would be fantastic...or even a spun-off "US Forces Remaining in Europe" write up
__________________
THIS IS MY SIG, HERE IT IS.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 3,003
Default

A US Orbat could be a great spun off thread from this thread where you could give your idea of how the US units still left in Germany have changed since the last time they were detailed - which would be at Omega

Things like:

Did the US forces there form new units from those who showed up too late or add them to the existing units and if so how?

Since some of the US units stayed in Europe and are assisting the Germans in their fight against the remaining Soviet and marauder units did the Germans loan them some of the equipment the evacuating units left behind to make them more combat ready?

How are they now organized and who do they report to?

What is being done to get the units cutoff in Poland back to Germany or at least back in contact with the American units left in Germany.

One big question remains as well - will the Germans try to take back any of their old pre-WWII borders from Poland or possibly help the Austrians push the Soviet units out but at the price of Austria now becoming part of a new Germany?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:49 PM
TrailerParkJawa TrailerParkJawa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 105
Default

I really enjoyed this. Had some time off yesterday and spent some of it reading through your work. I enjoyed the section about how things are in 2001 the most.

I did find myself wondering if I would support the West Germans. I can't personally support them crossing the border first. But Im not sure I can't just abandon them and say "hey bud you picked a fight your on your own".
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:27 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

British section updated with ORBAT.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:12 PM
Cdnwolf's Avatar
Cdnwolf Cdnwolf is offline
The end is nigh!!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: London, Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,455
Default

Trying to work out a board game style map based on the information you gave. Great work.
__________________
*************************************
Each day I encounter stupid people I keep wondering... is today when I get my first assault charge??
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Panther Al's Avatar
Panther Al Panther Al is offline
Sabre Ready!
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DC Area
Posts: 849
Send a message via AIM to Panther Al
Default

Outstanding stuff.


I am really interested in hearing more about Austria and how the US Forces in the area are working out since that is the zone I played in the most back in the day.
__________________
Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon.

Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-08-2012, 12:15 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Departing with Task Force 34 from Bremerhaven were the following major units minus their equipment.

US Seventh Army
I Corps
VII Corps
1st Armored Division (16x M1A2, 12x M1A1, 8x M1)
1st Cavalry Division (20x M1A2, 18x M1A1, 10x M1)
2nd Armored Division (1x M1A2, 3x M1A1, 11x M1)
44th Armored Division (4x M1A1, 2x M1, 12x M60A3)
1st Mechanised Division (4x M1A2, 16x M1A1, 10x M1)
3rd Mechanised Division (10x M1A1)
6th Infantry Division (6x M8)
35th Mechanised Division (9x M1A1, 14x M1)
36th Mechanised Division (10x M1, 21x M60A3, 4x M8)
38th Infantry Division (6x M60A3)
40th Mechanised Division (2x M1, 4x M60A3)
43rd Infantry Division (10x M60A3)
2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment (2x M1A2, 6x M8)
278th Armored Cavalry Regiment

According to Going Home they left behind their equipment which is 241 tanks (43x M1A2, 72x M1A1, 57x M1, 53x M60A3, 16x M8)

GDW doesn't break down the equipment levels in most units besides tanks and helicopters. I would also estimate an average of about 30 IFV/APC per division. 1st Arm, 1st CAV, 2nd Arm, 1st Mech, 3rd Mech, 35th Mech, 36th Mech and 40th Mech Divisions are M2/M3 equipped while 44th Arm, 38th Inf and 43rd Inf are M113/M115 equipped and 6th Light Infantry uses light vehicles. Most divisional artillery is self-propelled (MLRS/M109) with a few towed 155mm artillery units in the M113/M115 equiped divisions, while the 6th Light Infantry uses LARS and towed 105mm guns, plus add a small number of M3 and M115 in the armored cavalry regiments as a well as a few helicopters per divisions. Also plenty of HMMWV and trucks and some combat engineer equipment.

By my estimates per division (30x APC, 5-10x artillery and at least 30 light vehicles) departing US forces left behind..

241 tanks (43x M1A2, 72x M1A1, 57x M1, 53x M60A3, 16x M8), 330 IFV/APC (40 M3, 20x M115, 190x M2, 70x M113), 110 Artillery (10 MLRS, 60x M109, 40x 155/105mm) plus a few LARS and ADA, 400 Light Vehicles (maybe more) and about 30 helicopters.

I've distributed some US units around the German divisions but they would only amount to a division and a half of what was left behind.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:39 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 3,003
Default

I would think that if any US units were issued equipment from the stockpile left behind by the Germans it would be the 1st Cav and the 107 ACR

The 107 ACR's 600 men regard themselves as part of the German Army - thus they would probably get re-equipped with at least some tanks and Bradleys so they could function again as a Cav unit, now under German control as part of their Army

The 1st Cav has a lot of men and a decent amount of tanks and probably IFV's as well - a very powerful unit for 2001 - I could see the Germans giving them some and using them for any operation to try to break thru to the cutoff XI corps, especially if they intend to use such an operation as a distraction for any ops in Austria to clear that area

As for the various outlaw US units - they could consider using the Cav on them as well - i.e. roll up and tell them there is still a war on and they can put themselves back under US and German control and see what happens

as well equipped as the Cav is I dont see what is left of the 11th ACR or the 1st-40 surviving long against them. The 70th could give them a pretty good fight though.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:50 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

American section updated with ORBAT.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:57 PM
Panther Al's Avatar
Panther Al Panther Al is offline
Sabre Ready!
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: DC Area
Posts: 849
Send a message via AIM to Panther Al
Default

Excellent RN - You left the Best Cav unit in the US Army in Europe. Only quibble I have is that Sabre (2nd) would have a tank or three because everyone knows Grim Troop is the best troop....



OK.

A little Biased there...
__________________
Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon.

Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:25 AM
Olefin Olefin is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Greencastle, PA
Posts: 3,003
Default

RN - two corrections you should probably make

you have the 5th Mech still in one piece in Poland - i.e.

5th Mechanised Division (3,000 men, 12x M1A2, 21x M1A1, 9x M1): Poland
• 1st Brigade (710 men, 12x M1A2, 3x M2)
• 2nd Brigade (1,100 men, 21x M1A1, 6x M2)
• 256th Louisiana NG Brigade (880 men, 9x M1, 12x M113)
• 1/5th Attack Helicopter Battalion (90 men, 1x AH-1F, 1x UH-1H)
• 1st Field Artillery Battalion (100 men, 1x MLRS, 3x M109A3)
• 7th Combat Engineer Battalion (120 men, 1x M104 AVLB, 1x M88)

there might still be survivors in Poland but most of the division is gone after they got overrun back in July of 2000

Also you have the 1st Cavalry Division going home with Omega

according to Going Home they stayed in Europe, with only a small group going home - from Page 13 of the module

1st US CD (3, 000 men, 48 AFVs): Currently in cantonment
near Rosenheim, with 2, 400 men and 43 AFVs present, These
personnel have decided to disobey the evacuation order, and
remain in Germany. The remainder have left for Bremerhaven
in small groups.

So 2400 men and 43 AFV's would still be in Europe while 600 men and 5 AFV's went to Bremerhaven, with the tanks going to the Germans and the men going back to Norfolk

the Germans might have given them back their 5 AFV's as they are still fighting with them against the Soviets and marauders
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:01 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Thanks Olefin, ammended that.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:20 PM
boogiedowndonovan's Avatar
boogiedowndonovan boogiedowndonovan is offline
Activist Rules Lawyer
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: norcal
Posts: 309
Default

cool stuff

have you checked out the NATO 1998 orbat on tanknet?

It has a very detailed German section, including Territorials, Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. The entire orbat focuses mainly on ground combat units, but it does include Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine ground units. It also includes the German Territorial Army which is not just the Heimatschutz brigades and regiments but all sorts of defensive units.


I quickly scanned the US section of your article. Only two brigades for the 1st Cav? 1st and 155th? What happened to the 2nd brigade? disbanded and excess men and equipement sent to the 1st and 155th?

I think it would also be interesting to see what happens with the 11th ACR if the CIA contacts them and convinces them to declare for CIVGOV.

here's a link to the post on this board about the NATO 1989 orbat.

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=3504
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:13 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan View Post
cool stuff

have you checked out the NATO 1998 orbat on tanknet?

It has a very detailed German section, including Territorials, Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine. The entire orbat focuses mainly on ground combat units, but it does include Luftwaffe and Bundesmarine ground units. It also includes the German Territorial Army which is not just the Heimatschutz brigades and regiments but all sorts of defensive units.
That Orbats been around a while and I did reference some parts of it in my own orbat but thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boogiedowndonovan View Post
I quickly scanned the US section of your article. Only two brigades for the 1st Cav? 1st and 155th? What happened to the 2nd brigade? disbanded and excess men and equipement sent to the 1st and 155th?
See Olefin's post above.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:43 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

French section updated with orbat.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:56 PM
Tombot's Avatar
Tombot Tombot is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: in the "Zone Morte"! - Cologne/Germany
Posts: 159
Default

I. You are a VERY sick man RN7!
That is a load of over 80 pages. Stuff to read and to work with for this whole winter... Thanks, this is great stuff. I love to read it.

Btw: wasnt the Dead Zone about 50km instead of 5-10km east of the rhine ? If your right, i have to do new maps....(Oh NOOOO!)

II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cdnwolf View Post
Trying to work out a board game style map based on the information you gave. Great work.
Another one of those sick ideas... aaaww i would die for a game like that. My wet dream would be (beside a board game) a PC-game with an editor to build all these fantastic scenarios. Endless replay-value.
Like the "Total War"-Series ("Rome"), where you could fight it out with a specific leader OR play on the highest level (small skirmish tactics AND large scale-strategy; pick your own preference).

Last edited by Tombot; 12-12-2012 at 03:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 12-12-2012, 07:43 PM
natehale1971's Avatar
natehale1971 natehale1971 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, NC, USA
Posts: 1,199
Send a message via AIM to natehale1971 Send a message via MSN to natehale1971 Send a message via Yahoo to natehale1971
Default

the only thing i really have problems with your write up (and those of others) when dealing with the two German states in the V1 timeline... so many feel that the DNVA would be disbanded, or troops would get the kind of treatment they got in Real Life when unification happened. The East German Army was, in relation to its equipment and training, one of the strongest armies in the Warsaw Pact. It was outfitted with a large number of modern weapons systems... and thus was just to much of an advantage to keep it and use it to fight the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies. They would know their tactics, codes and proceedures to damn well... and that kind of an advantage you just don't give up so easily or quickly.

Especially since the original timeline showed that the Bundeswehr was having a really nasty time dealing with the Soviets and Pact allies, and thus the DNVA would be just to valuable to keep than to 'throw' them away... that's just a waste that I can't see someone fighting for their very existant would do.

Because it would just be too pragmatic to keep the DNVA as a whole, and any 'culling' would be done as the war progressed when evidence that said East German personnel was operating for the Soviets.

The DNVA units would be kept as they were with the same nomenclature, weapons, equipment, ranks, ect. at the start. And the phasing in of uniformed weapons, uniforms, equipment, ect would happen during the rotations from the front. DNVA units that were severely mauled would be disbanded and it's personnel would be transfered to other DNVA units to bring them back-up to strength.

Now i can easily see 'exchange' officers, NCOs... in positions as obseveers and adivsors in a manner similar to how NATO forces would have other nations personnel working with them to coordinate their operations. But these personnel would have an additonal role to look for anyone who'd be operating on the behalf of the Soviets and Pact forces.

I never really liked how GDW said that the DNVA units were forced to change their names and add a "2" to disginguish them form the West German units. Because that would be a major hit on their morale (because being seen as 'second best' just never is something that feels good)... hell, if you're gonna do that, might as well just redesignate them with unit names and numbers that follow the existing Bundeswehr units.

Those are some of reasons why in my campaigns that the DDR was offically still an independent state up until the French invaded the Rhineland... an act that caused the BRD and DDR to unify to create the DBR (Deutsche Bundesrepublik or German Federal Republic). I loved doing it this way since the French were trying so desperately to stop from happening, and their own actions actually caused what they were trying to stop.

When i get a chance I'll be posting the OOB that i came up with for the DNVA and Bundeswehr, that inculded the various branches that were not covered anywhere else... and a couple new groups that were created due to the continuation of the Cold War (such as the straegic rocketry forces & Airborne Landing Forces in the DNVA and the creation of civilian law enforcement agency - the Federal Police - in West Germany).

Land Forces (Landstreitkräfte), Airborne Landing Forces (Luftlandungstreikräfte), Air Force (Luftstreitkräfte), Air Defense (Luftverteidigung), People's Navy (Volksmarine, inculdes Naval Aviation & Naval Infantry assets), Strategic Rocketry Forces (Strategische Raketenstreitkräft), Home Guard Force (Hauptschütz), Border Troops of the GDR (Grenztruppen der DDR), Combat Groups of the Working Class (Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse), Construction Units (Baueinheiten), Peoples Police (Volkspolizei), Peoples Readiness Police (<>), Felix Dzerzhinsky Watch Regiment (Ministry for State Security, Stasi).

If you want, i can send you the OOB for the real world DNVA that I've got if you'd like to see it.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:25 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

I don't quite understand your train of thought here.

East Germany as an independent state wasn't all that popular with most East Germans in real life. Most East Germans wanted a unified Germany unless they were payed up members of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany (The East German Communist Party) and were getting all the advantages that being a member of that organisation brought to them. The Berlin Wall existed for one main reason, to stop East Germans becoming West Germans.

Why would the officer corps of the NVA and Bundesweher secretly cooperate and plan German Reunification if they had no intension of unifiying Germany.

Why would the Soviets and Warsaw Pact attack East Germany and start the Twilight War as we know if East Germany remained an independent state and the NVA wasn't cooperating with the Bundeswehr in the first place. If there was no West German troops in East Germany the NVA wouldn't have been able to take on Soviet forces.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:46 AM
natehale1971's Avatar
natehale1971 natehale1971 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, NC, USA
Posts: 1,199
Send a message via AIM to natehale1971 Send a message via MSN to natehale1971 Send a message via Yahoo to natehale1971
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
I don't quite understand your train of thought here.

East Germany as an independent state wasn't all that popular with most East Germans in real life. Most East Germans wanted a unified Germany unless they were payed up members of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany (The East German Communist Party) and were getting all the advantages that being a member of that organisation brought to them. The Berlin Wall existed for one main reason, to stop East Germans becoming West Germans.

Why would the officer corps of the NVA and Bundesweher secretly cooperate and plan German Reunification if they had no intension of unifiying Germany.

Why would the Soviets and Warsaw Pact attack East Germany and start the Twilight War as we know if East Germany remained an independent state and the NVA wasn't cooperating with the Bundeswehr in the first place. If there was no West German troops in East Germany the NVA wouldn't have been able to take on Soviet forces.
basically, what i am saying is that the DDR and BRD would officially be seperate states to rob the Soviets of the propaganda ability to say that the new unified state would be a rebirth of the Third Reich.

The reason why the Soviets attacked, was the fact that the West Germans had been allowed in to allow the East Germans to 'chose their own way'.. the leadership of the Bundeswehr and the DNVA were covertly communicating with each other after the losses of their most promenant units in the Far East Front against the PRC.

Also the DNVA joined the fight against the Soviets once it became evident that the Bundeswehr needed the support since the Soviets and other Pact allies where putting up a more fercious fight than they were expecting.

If you are fighting for your very existance you'r gonna use what tools you have, and not waste them... and maintaing the illusion that East and West Germany was two seperate states would rob those opposed to the fighting in europe as the rebirth of a miltary adventurism regime in the centre of Europe.

In reality, they would operate as a single state... but it wouldn't happen over night, but would happen naturally in a way that East and West Germany would be equal partners.

And not just the West Germans showing up and culling 25% or more of the DVNA as being redunant... because the reality that both German States really need those troops on the frontlines if they are going to survive.

Having the 'offical' stance that the DDR is seperate and working at their first true and free election in decades would be played up in a big way.. creating a good morale boost, and cutting the legs out from under the Soviets.

and when the two German states start working close together they would be brining the DDR up to the levels of the West so that the eventual unification would be beneficial to bought sides... with as little resentment as possible.

that's why i said the survivors of those DNVA units that got mauled would be used to provide reinforcements for other DNVA units in need of replacement personnel. And during the rest and refit periods those DNVA units would start getting Western Weapons, Equipment and vehicles to replace their lost Warsaw Pact gear.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 12-13-2012, 10:30 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

German Reunification is one of the key events of the Twilight War, in fact it pretty much starts the Twilight War in Europe.

East Germany was a member of the Warsaw Pact. Once West German troops enter East Germany they compromise their membership of the Warsaw Pact and their neutrality in any German-Soviet war. As far as the Soviets are concerned the Germans are now the enemy and their not going to distinguish between East and West.

East Germany was also an artificial creation of the post-Second World War political reality of Europe. The Soviet Union and Soviet forces in Germany was the main reason East Germany continued to exist. It wasn't recognised by West Germany and wasn't popular among East Germans unless they were die-hard communists.

Besides adding the prefix '2' to NVA units I haven't altered the NVA Army at all. All the divisions still exist and but start using official German nomenclature from early 1997 but continue to use NVA equipment throughout the war. I did disband most border guards and state security troops as they would be considered politically unreliable, and the NVA air and naval forces were absorbed into their larger West German counterparts.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:51 PM
natehale1971's Avatar
natehale1971 natehale1971 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, NC, USA
Posts: 1,199
Send a message via AIM to natehale1971 Send a message via MSN to natehale1971 Send a message via Yahoo to natehale1971
Default u

I always read it as the threat that German Reunification was what caused it to happen... while if left alone, the unification would have happened over time. We're forgetting that the West Germans crossed the border into East Germany and enaged the Soviet Forces in Germany by themselves... and that the DNVA and Border Guards all stood aside while this was happening, only getting involved when the Bundeswehr was about to get overwhelmed. during that time the DNVA carried out the coup that removed the civil authorities whom had no problem with them being used as cannon fodder.

The West Germans (and NATO) said they were going in to allow the East Germans to be able to determine their own destiny without being controlled by the Soviet Union.

Did the to German states want to be reunified? I think that the answer was a resounding Yes after what the Soviets had done to their nation during the past half century... the icing on the cake was their best troops being thrown away and seen as being worthless and only good as cannon fodder by their so-called closest allies.

I don't have anything really against what you've created, and don't want you to think that... i was just commenting on some of the things that GDW did with the way they presented Germany. And the disbanding of desperately needed troops on the front and second lines as well as homefront.

The Questionable units whose loyalty would be suspect would have been assigned to homeguard type operations (just as they were during WW2 and other wars that requried massive amounts of manpower), freeing up other units whose loyality was not as merky so that they could be used elsewhere where the were desprately needed.

When it comes to Germany post-WW2, the original idea was to strip away East Prussia and turn the remaining territory into three states (northern west germany, southern west germany and what became east germany) with two international zones (Saar and Ruhr Region). depending on the map and proposals this also inculded Austria and the sudenland...

As to the nomenclature, i understand your reasoning since it was part of how it was done by GDW... i was just mentioning how big a morale hit it would be for a unit to have to change it's name and get the feeling that they were once more being seen as nothing more than 'second best'...



Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
German Reunification is one of the key events of the Twilight War, in fact it pretty much starts the Twilight War in Europe.

East Germany was a member of the Warsaw Pact. Once West German troops enter East Germany they compromise their membership of the Warsaw Pact and their neutrality in any German-Soviet war. As far as the Soviets are concerned the Germans are now the enemy and their not going to distinguish between East and West.

East Germany was also an artificial creation of the post-Second World War political reality of Europe. The Soviet Union and Soviet forces in Germany was the main reason East Germany continued to exist. It wasn't recognised by West Germany and wasn't popular among East Germans unless they were die-hard communists.

Besides adding the prefix '2' to NVA units I haven't altered the NVA Army at all. All the divisions still exist and but start using official German nomenclature from early 1997 but continue to use NVA equipment throughout the war. I did disband most border guards and state security troops as they would be considered politically unreliable, and the NVA air and naval forces were absorbed into their larger West German counterparts.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 12-13-2012, 11:07 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Richard you should post up your own version of Germany in Twilight 2000 as I'd like to see it.

My own version is not too far removed from canon but is set after Omega. I like most of the original setting of Twilight 2000, although there are parts I don't agree with or find a bit unbelievable. However as regards to Germany and the war in Europe I am for the most part generally happy with it.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 12-14-2012, 12:44 PM
natehale1971's Avatar
natehale1971 natehale1971 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Monroe, NC, USA
Posts: 1,199
Send a message via AIM to natehale1971 Send a message via MSN to natehale1971 Send a message via Yahoo to natehale1971
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RN7 View Post
Richard you should post up your own version of Germany in Twilight 2000 as I'd like to see it.

My own version is not too far removed from canon but is set after Omega. I like most of the original setting of Twilight 2000, although there are parts I don't agree with or find a bit unbelievable. However as regards to Germany and the war in Europe I am for the most part generally happy with it.
will do.

one the things i had about the euro-soviet war that could have been a little better, was the fact that most of the Pact nations didn't like how their troops were being missused during the fighting of the Sino-Soviet War in the Far East... and felt that the Pact should have had a few more countries or units rebelling. The other was that they really didn't cover the creation of units that would have been raised by many nations to answer the call to war.
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:12 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

Thought I'd start having a go at extending the German/Austrian senario a bit.

0545 Hours Brumoski Air Base Austria, 08 April 2001

Three weary eyed Soviet soldiers observed the head lights of four vehicles approaching in the dark from the guard hut on the perimeter of Brumoski Air Base; a small former Austrian Luftstreitkrafte base located about 30 kilometers northwest of Vienna. The officer in charge of the air base, Captain Gavrilov had received a radio transmission the night before from the staff of the Soviet 1st Southwestern Front in Vienna to expect a Soviet Army convoy between 5:30 and 6:00 AM that morning. Captain Gavrilov had roused the garrison of the base, a force of some 36 men of the Soviet Air Defence Forces who had been stationed at the air base since March 2000. In their eleven month tour at the base the garrison had encountered no hostile forces or rarely had any visitors, and had largely concerned themselves with foraging for supplies from the surrounding area. However the commanding officer of the former garrison had informed Gavrilov that Brumoski Air Base was seized by Soviet Paratroopers during the invasion of Austria in October 1997, and had seen some heavy fighting with defending Austrian troops and been bombed a few times by NATO air strikes.

As the Soviet convoy approached the perimeter of the base Gavrilov and his two men stood to attention as other troops within the base manned their positions including a machine gun nest opposite the guard hut. Gavrilov could see two UAZ-469 light vehicles, a large modern truck of Czech manufacture and a Zil 41047 Limousine. As Gavrilov saluted the officer in the front seat of the first vehicle and asked for paperwork, he noticed the officers sleeve patch was of the KGB Border Troops. The officer greeted Gavrilov and handed his paperwork to him, introduced himself as Major Kurakin of the KGB Border Guards and commended him for maintaining such a well turned out and alert garrison in such difficult times. Kurakin informed Gavrilov that an incoming aircraft was expected at Brumoski Air Base at 6:00 AM, and that a dozen men from his garrison was expected to perform an honour guard to greet the arriving passengers.

As Gavrilov’s men assembled on the runway near the control tower none of the troops in the convoy left their vehicles except for Kurakin, although Gavrilov noticed that some of the troops in the convoy wore airborne tunics and were armed with a mixture of weapons including some sub-machine guns of West German manufacture. Kurakin offered Gavrilov a cigarette as they waited on the tarmac of the runway. ”Go ahead Gavrilov take a few. Their Marlboro’s, much smoother than the cancer sticks we get from supply. We got a whole stash of them from an American unit we captured in Poland”. Gavrilov thanked Kurakin and said that he hadn’t actually seen an aircraft in flight since 1999. Kurakin replied that he could be seeing quite a few more in the near future.

6:04 AM the drone of a helicopter could be heard as its lights approached in the dawn sky from the northeast. The helicopter was small and sleek, far less clunky than any Soviet helicopter that Gavrilov had ever seen before. The Mil Mi-34 was a new light liaison helicopter that that had only begun to enter Soviet service in 1993, and before the war only a few dozen had been built. As Gavrilov prepared his men for inspection Kurakin walked towards the passenger door as two Soviet officers stepped out. The first was a stern looking middle aged General in full uniform, while his companion was a powerfully built Colonel in airborne field dress. Both men saluted Kurakin, briefly inspected Gavrilov’s men and walked towards the waiting limousine. Kurakin informed Gavrilov to guard the helicopter until their return and provide some rest and refreshment for the helicopter pilot. Within five minutes of the helicopter landing the convoy sped off in the direction of Vienna.

Last edited by RN7; 01-16-2013 at 06:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:01 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

0700 Hours CIA Balkan Station, US IV Corps Headquarters, Uzice Serbia

“ Sergeant Reynolds is that the radio transmission from our agents in Romania? ” Yes Captain, it’s in code I’ll have it printed off for you in a few moments . It’s the sixth intelligence report we have had in two weeks from the Romanian section, something big is going on there.”

Captain King walked out of the signals hut across the courtyard of the former Yugoslav Army barracks towards the staff office of the IV Corps. King a 30 year old average sized black man shivered in the frigid morning air, and thought to himself its now Spring but it’s still freezing unlike in his native North Carolina, and how did he ever wind up in a God forsaken place like this?

In the main offices of the IV Corps King handed the radio report to a Lieutenant who quickly decoded the transcript. He then proceeded to the executive office were two Colonels and the regional CIA Director were seated around a large table. The Colonel seated nearest King greeted him and introduced himself as Colonel Turner from the 80th Infantry Division and told him to stand at ease. Turner then took the transcript from King and asked him to sit at the table in one of the vacant chairs.

After reading the contents of the transcript out loud Turner turned to the CIA Director and said “ Director Martelli what do you make of all this?”

“ Over the past two weeks we have had reports from our agents in Romania about increased Soviet military activity. Starting with a reported movement of Soviet forces across the Ukrainian border east of the Carpathians, a steady and continual movement of Soviet land forces has been noted from border crossings in the Ukraine and Moldavia over the past two weeks. Reportedly the Soviets have focused their activity along the Siret and Danube Rivers in the east and south of the country and around the city of Ploesti, but they have largely ignored Bucharest and other areas. The Romanian military command hasn’t the resources to confront the Soviet incursion which includes a number of armored units. Reports from Transylvania are very sketchy but agents have noted increased Hungarian activity and anti-partisan sweeps across northern Romania”.

“ Director Do you know what the Soviet are up to?

“ Colonel Turner to be honest I don’t. The Soviets could be trying to consolidate control of the Ploesti oil field, but they might also be trying to eliminate Romanian nationalist forces or simply shoring up their borders in the southern Ukraine and Moldavia where nationalist separatist forces have risen up against the Soviets. It could also be a combination of all three but the size of Soviet forces which is reportedly at least a few divisions in strength points to them being up to something else. If they continue building up their forces and then move west into Yugoslavia or south from Austria we could be in big trouble” .

Martelli turned to the other Colonel sitting at the table. “ Colonel Frazer what is our current position in Yugoslavia?”

“ Director we are strung out across the length of Serbia. Our three divisions are currently fighting a low intensity war with Croatian and Albanians forces along the Serbian border. We are low on ammunition, oil, supplies and have few armoured or heavy artillery units. We are located a few hundred kilometers from the Adriatic Sea, but we have no ships to take us anywhere yet alone a navy or air force to support us. We are allied with the Serbs but we can’t rely on them. The Serbs and the Croats are as changeable as the weather and if the Russians turn up in large numbers the Serbs will quickly switch sides. The other Yugoslav and regional forces such as the Bosnians, Slovenians, Montenegrins or Albanians are not powerful enough on their own to take on the Croats or Serbs. We have had no direct contact with the Civilian Government in Omaha for six months and Civgov hasn’t the resources or means to aid us”

Colonel Turner turned to Director Martelli and stated bluntly. “ Director if the Soviets are heading our way then we are literally dead in the water. We have no were to go and if we stay we will have to abandon our position and fight from the hills, or move across hostile territory to Romania or Greece or to the Yugoslavian coast in the hope that we can find some shipping to take us to America”.

“ Colonels I have been dreading having to make this decision, but it seems now that current events have forced my hand. Thank you for your reports and I think you know what course of action I must now take. Captain King please stay in the room until I prepare a coded transcript for you to transmit to the Defense Intelligence Agency staff at Neuburg Air Base in Germany.”

Last edited by RN7; 01-16-2013 at 05:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 01-16-2013, 02:41 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

0730 Hours Vienna, Austria

The convoy of vehicles that left Brumoski Air Base an hour and half earlier progressed at steady speed down the A22 Autobahn along the east bank of the Danube River. In the back seat of the Zil Limousine General Alexei Likhachov remarked to his colleague about how much of Vienna was still intact as he was under the impression that Vienna was destroyed in the nuclear attacks in 1997. Colonel Erdman informed him that the city airport and an oil refinery in the northern district was targeted by nuclear weapons but the rest of the city was spared due to the historical importance of its architecture. As the convoy of vehicles stopped outside an impressive looking building in the old district of central Vienna General Likhachov asked Erdman what the building was.

“General it is the headquarters of the First Southwestern Front. Before the war it was known as the Hofburg Palace and was the official residence of the President of Austria, and was also once the winter palace of the Hapsburg Emperors”.

The General smiled and asked would the First Southwestern Front have a symphony to entertain him over breakfast.

Major Kurakin opened the rear door of the limousine as Likhachov and Erdman left the vehicle and approached the honour guard assembled at the front of the Hofburg Palace. All of the assembled guard troops wore full dress uniform and a tall and impressive looking captain greeted them and escorted them inside the building. A buffet with a selection of food and drink with waiters greeted both officers as they entered the reception chamber as the commanding officers of the First and Second Southwestern Fronts assembled in the room along with the commanders of the 8th Guards Tank Army and the 16th, 21st and 41st Armies. General Likhachov surveyed the assembled officers in the room before greeting them.

“Good morning gentlemen it seems that the war in Austria has been tough on you”.

Colonel Erdman smiled as the other officers glanced at each other before stepping back and averting their eyes away from the attention of Likhachov who was clearly agitated with them. Likhachov walked towards the head of the table and ignored the fine breakfast on display as the officers quickly took their seats at the table.

“ Gentlemen Mother Russia sends its greetings to all of you. Out capital city Moscow as you know was destroyed along with the Kremlin by the Americans in 1997, and the Politburo and the Soviet Strategic Central Command was reformed in the city of Ryazan. Today I am here to update you on the position of our forces in Central Europe and inform you of what our government expects of you. But first let’s have breakfast and you can inform me of how the war has been going for you”.

Last edited by RN7; 01-16-2013 at 05:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 01-16-2013, 03:31 AM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

0900 Hours DIA Station, Neuburg Air Base, Germany

In the signals room of the DIA station in Neuburg Air Base in Bavaria the Corporal manning the radio spills his coffee over his desk as a coded radio message is received.

“ Lieutenant Daley you are not going to believe what has just come over the radio. It’s a coded radio transmission of an older type we haven’t used since the summer of 1999, but it seems to be definetely of US military origin. I’ll have it deciphered it for you in a few minutes”.

*** TO DIA COMMANDER IN GERMANY

MAJOR WARSAW PACT MILITARY INCURSION DETECTED IN ROMANIA, SITUATION IS URGENT. REQUEST MEETING WITH DIA STAFF AT LOCATION OF YOU’RE CHOOSING.

DIRECTOR JOHN MARTELLI, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, SERBIA***

“ Jesus it’s from the CIA, I’d better let the brass know about this”.

Last edited by RN7; 01-16-2013 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 01-16-2013, 05:31 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

1000 Hours US Fourth Army Headquarters, Luitpoldkaserne, Munich Germany

Lieutenant Riley walked towards the Fourth Army offices in the main building of Luitpoldkaserne Barracks. Saluting the Military Police officer on guard duty at the door and the Sergeant sitting at the reception desk he asked was the General busy as he had an urgent message for him. The Sergeant stood up and knocked at the General’s office door informing him that an officer from Signals had a message for him.

“ Good morning General Fischer we have had a radio transmission from the DIA in Neuburg”.

“ What’s the message about Lieutenant as I have to go across town to meet with the Germans shortly”.

“ Sir it’s a message from the CIA in the Balkans. There’s trouble in Romania and they are requesting an urgent meeting with the DIA. Neuburg sent it straight to us to ask for our instructions”.

“ The CIA! What do those idiots want? If it wasn’t for them and the politicians we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now and we might still have a country to go home to. I’ll have to call the executive officers to discuss this and cancel my appointment with the German Army Staff. Thank you Lieutenant ask the Sergeant to come in as you leave”.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 01-16-2013, 06:06 PM
RN7 RN7 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,284
Default

1030 Hours First Southwestern Front Headquarters, Hofburg Palace, Vienna Austria

“ Gentleman your report of the situation in Austria has been very informative. In over three years your ten divisions have not progressed one foot since our initial gains in Austria after the instigation of nuclear warfare”.

The commanders of the First and Second Southwestern Front looked at each other as if they had just been issued a death sentence.

“ However Comrades I am not here to chastise you. The occupation of a hostile country is not an easy task. I served in Afghanistan before the war and also as an advisor in Africa in the 1980’s. In times like this and with powerful NATO armies facing you across the Enns River, the fact that you have held your ground and still occupy Vienna and the eastern half of Austria is to be commended. Our forces in Poland, Romania, the Middle East, China and elsewhere have hardly basked themselves in glory. This sector of the front is however going to become the focal point of our efforts to liberate Europe from capitalism, and your forces are going to play a critical part in that effort. Colonel Erdman will brief you about the wider situation in Central Europe as I have to urgently return to Budapest for discussion with the Hungarian High Command”.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.