Stoner Weapon System replacement?

[RandyT0001]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

From the rule books I toss out a couple of weapons..... The Stoner system, the Mac-10, the HK 69, the M60. The rifles and carbines are replaced by the M16A1 or M16A2 or the M4/M4A1. The Uzi meets the SMG needs. The MAG does everything the M60 does and is the coaxial on all MP vehicles anyway. The M79 is fielded instead of the HK69 and is necessary for the rocket grapnel in the mountaineering pack. The FN Minimi (SAW) or the Ultimax 100 fit for the Automatic rifle role.

When running the 3rd edition I dropped the Mac-10, the HK 69, the Stoner rifle and carbine. Like you I switched to M16, M16A1, M16A2, M4 variants for standard rifle/carbine issue. I replaced the M60 with Stoner M207 for the SAW/auto rifle roles because of common ammunition. I kept the Mag 58 as a heavy base of fire MG. M79's and M203 were the grenade launchers issued.

[Ieqo]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

You know this drops the Projects Tech Level, right? Gives the Rich Five and the Frozen Chosen an advantage.

Damn, you broke the code. Yeah, I'm totally okay with the Project being outgunned by a national military (the Rich Five/KFS) and out-teched by a few groups. Thinking with your trigger-finger is (and should be in my opinion) a great way to bunches of folks dead in my games.

Having said that, I'm well aware that that's simply my style of play and doesn't invalidate any other style of play.

As to the 4th Edition, I haven't bought it yet, and the more I hear about it, the less likely a $50 investment becomes*. I like Chris and I wish him all the best; I just disagree with the direction he seems to have taken.

* Completely apropos of nothing, there would seem to be a "Fourth Edition Curse" among the RPG industry. The 4th Ed of GURPS sucks. The 4th Ed of D&D doesn't even bear mentioning. T4 likewise for us Traveller aficionados. Hell, even the 4th Edition of Call of Cthulhu ranks in my least favorites.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Ieqo

Damn, you broke the code. Yeah, I'm totally okay with the Project being outgunned by a national military (the Rich Five/KFS) and out-teched by a few groups. Thinking with your trigger-finger is (and should be in my opinion) a great way to bunches of folks dead in my games.

Having said that, I'm well aware that that's simply my style of play and doesn't invalidate any other style of play.

As to the 4th Edition, I haven't bought it yet, and the more I hear about it, the less likely a $50 investment becomes*. I like Chris and I wish him all the best; I just disagree with the direction he seems to have taken.

* Completely apropos of nothing, there would seem to be a "Fourth Edition Curse" among the RPG industry. The 4th Ed of GURPS sucks. The 4th Ed of D&D doesn't even bear mentioning. T4 likewise for us Traveller aficionados. Hell, even the 4th Edition of Call of Cthulhu ranks in my least favorites.

That $50 investment goes to keeping the company alive too. If like me. you would care to see new modules; and updated versions of the old modules.

I prefer the 3rd edition and that timeline too.... However, I admit to being in my 40s and just being nostalgic. I do think all the equipment can and should be updated simply because we have access to so much more information and material than the authors did at inception. Doesn't have to be upgraded to the latest 2014 edition but, the Humvee was adopted in the 1980s.

[.45cultist]

I envisioned that Morrow Industries did the Blackwater/ Haliburton stuff to prepare for their mission, so erly adoption exists in my timeline.

[ArmySGT.]

Not everyone was frozen and emplaced at the same time..... Per 3rd, some teams had their equipment updated without waking them.

So an enterprising PD could have load outs for the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. The Teams would not be awoken so as to shock them with the change and keep them in their prime physical condition for the mission.

60s could have surplus WW2.... Thompson SMGs, Please with a M8 scout car.

70s could be 3rd with Stoners.

80s with M16s and M1025 Humvees

90s and you have 4th edition.

How much fun to be even older, without the knowledge of PCs, cell phones, and GPS......... Tommy guns and berets, or Fedoras. Like a Boss.

[.45cultist]

And the 3rd ed. stated equipment and manuals were added to sleeping teams gear. I'd think stuff like computers would require classes.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

And the 3rd ed. stated equipment and manuals were added to sleeping teams gear. I'd think stuff like computers would require classes.

Depends upon the complexity. A touch screen with macro that prompt actions, open menus, or prompts for data imputs........ a 2015 autonav that acts like a turn by turn GPS for example.

Additionally, updates might mean only one member or the primary and secondary operators are awaked. Such as radio operators.

This does run up the risk of disclosing the bolt hole location. However, I think that the remote locations of most bolt holes; coupled with the indepth deception techniques, means the probability itself is low.

[bobcat]

honestly i could see the project leaving most of the equipment in place why tear out and replace a good logistics mechanism just because there's some shiny, new, untested weapons system out there.

that said i could see them streamlining some of the logistical hurdles that they had to make do with as some of the kit gets improves. for example removing the HK69's M203's and M79's and replacing them with HK M320's which can serve as either an under barrel or standalone grenade launcher. and replacing the M60's and MAG 58's with the M240B. i could also see upgrade and modernization kits for existing weapons in the inventory such as the Uzi, Stoner, and such. this would limit the amount of time spent training the teams on all new weapon systems and allow older assets to continue to serve their purpose.

i never understood why the Project failed to reduce the logistical stress of having so many ammunition types to maintain among individual weapons. standardization would have been a far smarter course of action.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by bobcat

i never understood why the Project failed to reduce the logistical stress of having so many ammunition types to maintain among individual weapons. standardization would have been a far smarter course of action.

I am not sure 9 different types of small arms ammunition (9x19, 5.56x45, 5.56x45 linked, 7.62x51, 7.62x51 linked, 12.7x99 linked, .44 magnum, .357 magnum and 12 Ga 00 buckshot magnum) would cause that much of a logistical problem. They are common rounds for US military, so it would not be that difficult to find. The Project most likely had a JIT inventory model in mind.

You might be able to make a case for heavy weapons producing more logistical stress. But in those cases, 40mm grenades and 81mm mortar rounds become more specialized in purpose than a slug.

[bobcat]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

I am not sure 9 different types of small arms ammunition (9x19, 5.56x45, 5.56x45 linked, 7.62x51, 7.62x51 linked, 12.7x99 linked, .44 magnum, .357 magnum and 12 Ga 00 buckshot magnum) would cause that much of a logistical problem. They are common rounds for US military, so it would not be that difficult to find. The Project most likely had a JIT inventory model in mind.

You might be able to make a case for heavy weapons producing more logistical stress. But in those cases, 40mm grenades and 81mm mortar rounds become more specialized in purpose than a slug.

its not just caliber though magazines by my count in 3E you have 4 different 5.56mm non-compatible magazines types to maintain and supply, you also have repair and replacement parts that need to be stocked, depot maintenance teams to train, and so on. all the extra hubris gets in the way and especially with a JIT logistics system you're going to have problems that will escalate rapidly enough that MARS and recon teams will run out of supplies at critical points and before you know it prime base has been overrun by a group of barbarians.

streamlining the loadouts to reduce the logistics footprint would also be essential in keeping the project from becoming too visible during the planning and staging. its easier to whitewash very large purchases of weapons from a small number or suppliers than it is with large purchases of weapons from a large number of suppliers.

[mmartin798]

Originally Posted by bobcat

streamlining the loadouts to reduce the logistics footprint would also be essential in keeping the project from becoming too visible during the planning and staging. its easier to whitewash very large purchases of weapons from a small number or suppliers than it is with large purchases of weapons from a large number of suppliers.

I see what you are talking about now. But in this case, there is nothing to hide. Morrow Industries has large scale excavation projects, failed mining projects, accidents at nuclear waste disposal facilities and still has a huge manufacturing base. There is nothing to stop them from milling, stamping and assembling their own replacement parts, probably without license, for the purpose you propose. There would be no weapons purchases. Just lots of steel bar stock and rolled steel that would be trivial to explain.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by mmartin798

There would be no weapons purchases. Just lots of steel bar stock and rolled steel that would be trivial to explain.

In the event there is an unforeseen truck jackknife or train derailment (and the associated local/federal investigations) there better be some type of cover story that holds up until you can cover your tracks.

If a box car with hundreds of military grade weapons/ordinance with no documentation whatsoever is found, the ATF, DOD, and FBI would be swarming all over wherever it came from.

This makes me think you need to have at least one legit purchase of everything you need. Then you can say you are just moving it around.



Edit. I have been thinking about this a little more and I could see the Project deal with a corrupt Military Quartermaster at some point so they could have a fall guy. You buy stuff from him on the black market and then when you produce new product, you give then the same serial numbers as the stolen material. That way if anything gets intercepted the military, atf and fbi will start looking in the wrong place.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by kato13

In the event there is an unforeseen truck jackknife or train derailment (and the associated local/federal investigations) there better be some type of cover story that holds up until you can cover your tracks.

If a box car with hundreds of military grade weapons/ordinance with no documentation whatsoever is found, the ATF, DOD, and FBI would be swarming all over wherever it came from.

This makes me think you need to have at least one legit purchase of everything you need. Then you can say you are just moving it around.



Edit. I have been thinking about this a little more and I could see the Project deal with a corrupt Military Quartermaster at some point so they could have a fall guy. You buy stuff from him on the black market and then when you produce new product, you give then the same serial numbers as the stolen material. That way if anything gets intercepted the military, atf and fbi will start looking in the wrong place.

Also the Council of Tomorrow were defense industry types who could get and move such items easily.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Also the Council of Tomorrow were defense industry types who could get and move such items easily.

Well they can move them without question if they produce them in the public eye.

If they are producing unlicensed copies of something (The COT cant own everything) you might want to cover your tracks by legally purchasing some items for use in destructive testing of vehicles.

If for example you publicly don't produce 25mm ammo, you buy some to test different armor configurations and cover the stuff you produce with legally documented lot numbers.

[RandyT0001]

Maybe the COT brought in some "cleaners" to take care of such accidents. That might be a whole different lot of MP personnel. Want to roleplay that?

[ArmySGT.]

Can you imagine the Machiavellian scheme for a coverup if the truck delivering the V-150 and all the equipment for a Recon or MARS bolthole overturned on the way to the secret bolthole location for burial?

[kato13]

My cover story has always been a mobile sales unit for selling military equipment to local police forces.

IIRC the LA Police got their first armored car in the early 80's and you can follow up on that by going to every city with over 100k population showing them what an APC can do for their force. At that point you have quite a few local forces making a windfall from captured drug money/assets and making extravagant purchases, so a couple of actual sales are not out of the question.

Heck while interacting with all those police forces, you can even do some stage 1 reviews of possible recruits and local on the ground intelligence gathering.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

I envisioned that Morrow Industries did the Blackwater/ Haliburton stuff to prepare for their mission, so erly adoption exists in my timeline.

So how shady does a Morrow Industries branch of Private Military Contractors go?

Keeping with the theme of the thread.... I keep the HP-35. It just gets updated with better materials so +P+ ammunition is possible and a double action trigger too if the PC wants it.

I have considered the AR-18 for project issue. That has atleast been adopted at one time by some south east asian military (singapore?) and was manufactured in quantity. Has two advantages over the AR15, a side folding stock, and gas piston. The hinge pin holes at the front of the lower receiver are weak and have been know to break off if handled improperly. This renders an AR18 useless. The AR18 will use M16 magazines.

[swaghauler]

What about upgrades to existing weapons in the stockpile. ALL of the M14 EBR-RI (Enhanced Battle Rifle-Rock Island) DMR's in service now are simply remanufactured M-14's with a Sage International stock, 6 mags, sling, Harris Bipod, Leupold 3.5 to 10 power scope and special scope mount, and a match grade trigger. All of the parts are simply "dropped into" previously stored rifles to create the M14 EBR-RI. This can be done with just about every gun but the 1911 (which often requires "hand fitting"). What's stopping the caretakers' of the site from updating the equipment in this manner?

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

What about upgrades to existing weapons in the stockpile. ALL of the M14 EBR-RI (Enhanced Battle Rifle-Rock Island) DMR's in service now are simply remanufactured M-14's with a Sage International stock, 6 mags, sling, Harris Bipod, Leupold 3.5 to 10 power scope and special scope mount, and a match grade trigger. All of the parts are simply "dropped into" previously stored rifles to create the M14 EBR-RI. This can be done with just about every gun but the 1911 (which often requires "hand fitting"). What's stopping the caretakers' of the site from updating the equipment in this manner?

Caches of this type are carefully hidden, often with an elaborate deception plan hiding the existence of the cache from public knowledge.

The interiors of the cache are sealed with a nitrogen (or other noble gas) environment to prevent oxidation and deterioration. These caches were buried decades in advance to be available after an American-Soviet nuclear war. The first caches were laid down in the early days for the Project using the technology at hand 1960s to early 1970s. Then Bruce E. Morrow returns from the future with the plans and a functioning example of some advanced technologies. The cryogenic sleep tubes to preserve Project members in their physical and mental prime and portable micro fusion power plants to power their equipment and untether them from fuel pumps.

Canonically, a mass update of equipment occurs in the mid 1980s for third edition with a war on 19 November 1989. 4th edition I don't recall if their is an equipment update before a 2017 War/Dinosaur killer comet strike.

[history1861]

I have experimented in several different campaigns with switching out the Basic Load weapons but always seem to come back to the ones in 3rd Edition. It feels more like Morrow Project that way...
That said, I usually add the M16A2 as a replacement system and upgrade the M16A1s (Basic Load 2), though I've kept the XM174 grenade launcher, instead of replacing it with the Mark 19. The differences in size and weight between them convinced me of that. I know the system didn't work out well in the Real World, so let's hope the Project managed to fix the problems it had.
I always liked the idea that there were redundant systems in the Project, like the Uzi/Mac-10, indicating that MP was picking things up as they went along and that it wasn't a monolithic entity you were dealing with but rather a group trying to get things done as best they could.
Though, I've been playing and running the game since the 80s so perhaps I'm just set in my ways.
Also not a fan of the Humvee so I normally keep the XR-311 too..