T2K Today

[kcdusk]

I'm very late to this thread, and new to the longer issues in/around Israel. My question was going to be that Israel was hit by 8,000 (or was it 5,000?) missiles last year.

Originally Posted by Raellus

I agree 100% that Israeli's current response seems disproportionate to the provocation. 400 Palestinians dead (at least a quarter of them civilians) for 3 dead Israeli civilians tells the story here.

I dont know what the death toll was in Israel last year. Does it even matter? No wonder Isreal have had enough.

So my question was going to be what option does Israel have?

And i cant believe (OK, i can believe but i am still dissappointed) that the United Nations have asked Isreal to stop? Where were the UN all of last year?

I dont know whose right or wrong. But i find it hard to belive isreal has been asked to stop after having to put with with missiles everday.

If your looking for humour in the situation. The UN met for many hours today to discuss the latest developments (like this cropped up over night) and they couldnt even agree on the wording of a press release (yikes!).

[ChalkLine]

To get some perspective;

The traffic in Tel Aviv is about thirty times more deadly than Hamas rockets. Yes, the rockets have killed about twenty people over several years, a total of four deaths in the latest attacks.

The IDF, which I consider quite different to Israel, killed about three hundred and fifty people in the first three days. As is usual for so many deaths in a built up area, twenty per cent were minors.

Regardless of how provoked Israel is, it is quite clear that no one has any sort of control over the IDF. Factor in how provoked the people of Gaza are and you can see this is terribly one-sided.

For a very good explanation of the current events I recommend checking the RPG.net thread on the matter.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I'm very late to this thread, and new to the longer issues in/around Israel. My question was going to be that Israel was hit by 8,000 (or was it 5,000?) missiles last year.

Kc when you give figures could you look at the right sources please. The number of missiles, however, has been none .

1500 rockets and 1600 mortar rounds had been the number with almost none during the cease fire period (I should have checked that myself before): 32 and 42 respectively during the cease fire. Therefore, I was wrong Hamas respected the cease fire. I'll have to check more carefully on Israel leveling up the blocus.

These figure must be true as they are coming out of the IDF itself. That is more than in 2006 and 2007, however. I'm not saying that it is fine of course but I would think that it matters.

I checked on the blocus (UN sources+press). According to UN the blocus was never leveled. Construction projects including these intiated by the UN itself had to be stopped (including schools and hospitals). Unemployment rose to about 50%. Electricity is cut about 5/hrs a day and might be cut definitely. I wander why one of the early attack by the IDF hit the UN buildings at Gaza. Right before the offensive, the UN and several organization appealed for an almost 500 million $ aid to Gaza. The reason was the deteriorating situation resulting from the continuing Blocus by Israel. By the way, a similar situation is appearing near the Barrier on the West bank and around the illegoal collonies.

So lets use the international and israelian figures to draw a small no-conclusion: Hamas respected its word, Israel didn't. Hamas kept saying it over and over we didn't listen. And of course we expect Hamas to quitefully wait and see the population drift into misery and die. Someone asked if something more sinister is going on, my answer was Yes. Now I'm scared by how sinister it might become. Of course, you can burn me (at least in words) but don't forget to burn all of the UN institutions, many of our own specialists (including several US citizens and at least one of the former US president) and the IDF spokesman. Not really looking at humour into this but it could have eased things a bit. So as we have to go to the full drama lets do it. Because of you all, I have looked a bit deeper into this, only scratching the surface of things (thanks) and my opinion is made. Make you own but if you have to do it, look at direct sources.

[kcdusk]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Kc when you give figures could you look at the right sources please. The number of missiles, however, has been none .

I was quoting the local tv station from tonight. Channel 7 for those people in australia.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

I was quoting the local tv station from tonight. Channel 7 for those people in australia.

I guessed. I didn't think you were doing that baddly but I was sure that you were getting these figures from local or national press. Lately I haven't seen these guys doing their job correctly (except of course for the one getting killed or imprisoned everywhere, including the western world). Taking whatever news you can find, I would estimate something like 90% of the informations to be either false, incomplete or changed to make you believe what they want to sale you as the truth. Don't take me wrong, I don't think that the press is working for any kind of global plot, just that it works for its interest and money earning. Therefore, it sales us what we are the more ready to buy: an entirely demoniac Hamas to some and an Americano/Jewish plot to others (the people holding on the middle ground are not customers anyway). I knew before Iraq that Saddam had no mass destruction weapon left, very competent people screamed it to the world, but most of the world still bought that crap. Saddam is gone, nice, but I still find the level of casualties to be outrageous (40000 for US and somewhere between 200.000 and 1.5 Million for Iraq if you are including the ten years inerwar period: 1992-2003). In Israel, the number of rockets fired since the end of the cease fire increased quickly and that was unacceptable. However, without concern for the world I would have feared for a Palestinian Genocide, we can now hope that it should remain a limited massacre.

If I was just to give you an advice, take the press as a starting point (that is also true for wikipedia...) and go further as many informations are available on the net. Nevertheless, what I gave is also partially incomplete and a broader range of interpretation can be made out of it (the figures may not be entirely accurate as I had no time to cross reference them). As I said, I only scratched the surface of things and my second opinion might be entirely wrong (In fact, I'm sure it is at least partially wrong). I still agree with the idea that both side bear part of the guilt but I'm convinced that we could do just a little more if we were properly informed. As I said, I remain somewhat idealistic and I remain convinced that information is the key. Before, you could find it in Cafés and Bars, now internet is helping on that matter.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

So my question was going to be what option does Israel have?

How about not killing entire families just to kill one Hamas personality? I know, I know, its just crazy ole Targan talking crazy again...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

How about not killing entire families just to kill one Hamas personality? I know, I know, its just crazy ole Targan talking crazy again...

And I thought I was an idealist

[Grimace]

Guys, let's remember what kato suggested about not pissing in our own "bed" here. Some people seem to be getting rather opinionated about things, and may be saying some things that they don't necessarily intend to sound the way they do.

A lot of people have strong opinions about this conflict, and about the events revolving around the whole situation, and if people continue to spout out things that can inflame tempers, we're likely going to have our own little shouting match on this board again.

So let's take a break from Israel and the Palestinians, otherwise when kato gets back he's going to have to be stomping out fires and possibly banning people for things they've said. I don't think any of us really want that, do we?

[Mohoender]

I agree Grim but so far I found all this exchange to be quite respectful. No one has insulted anyone (or so I feel). Sorry if its the case. I might be wrong but the general consensus seem to be "lets look at things" and "the situation is dramatic from whatever side you take it".

I agree that things have to retain some sense of measures but if we all had the same point of view, there would be no point of having a forum at all. We might not all have the same views on things (game and else) but I personally find all opinion to be valuable. I usually get more from people with different points of view as they force me to go deeper into things. At times, I find out that I might be right, at other time I find that they are, but at least I'm not stuck with static ready made opinions (built up from one sided press views).

[Haven]

Preface: Opinion... also i could argue the same thing for the Hamas side.

This is meant with respect and with no malice towards anyone.

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

To get some perspective;
The traffic in Tel Aviv is about thirty times more deadly than Hamas rockets. Yes, the rockets have killed about twenty people over several years, a total of four deaths in the latest attacks.

Regardless of effectiveness they are attacks and they are continuing, constant attacks.

Should Israel just wait until Hamas gets better rockets before responding?

“We’ll ignore it until they really do something bad and kill more people,” is not good policy for a nation under constant attack.

Kinda sounds like the WTC to me.

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

The IDF, which I consider quite different to Israel, killed about three hundred and fifty people in the first three days. As is usual for so many deaths in a built up area, twenty per cent were minors.

So basically this all boils down to effectiveness of military action? It shouldn’t.

IDF is better at killing than Hamas; Plain and simple.

But they are both attacking each other so I don’t see how you can blame Israel more than Hamas.

Equal parties in guilt.

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Regardless of how provoked Israel is, it is quite clear that no one has any sort of control over the IDF. Factor in how provoked the people of Gaza are and you can see this is terribly one-sided.

It is one-sided.

It has BEEN one-sided.

So much so that like the enemies of the US, they don’t even try conventional attacks anymore.

This is a war in the media and world opinion and any civilians are currently caught in the cross-fire and are being used as ammunition.

Israel is pretty much in a no win situation.
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with wide scale military action it is branded by the world as a bully
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with a ‘measured response’ and Israelis say they aren’t doing enough and that leadership doesn’t get elected next time around. Also they are still a bully in world opinion just because they use a helicopter against a militiaman. “So unfair!”
- Israel doesn’t do anything. Israeli’s die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn’t elected next time around.
- Israel gives up ‘conquered’ territory. Insurgents move up into ‘surrendered territory’ which is what it will be called by both sides, and continues attacks. Israeli’s die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn’t elected next time around, and if they want the territory back it must be ‘re-conquered’ and the UN will scream bloody murder again.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Haven

Israel is pretty much in a no win situation.
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with wide scale military action it is branded by the world as a bully
- It defends itself against rocket attacks with a ‘measured response’ and Israelis say they aren’t doing enough and that leadership doesn’t get elected next time around. Also they are still a bully in world opinion just because they use a helicopter against a militiaman. “So unfair!”
- Israel doesn’t do anything. Israeli’s die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn’t elected next time around.
- Israel gives up ‘conquered’ territory. Insurgents move up into ‘surrendered territory’ which is what it will be called by both sides, and continues attacks. Israeli’s die and property is damaged. The attackers win a political and morale victory and the current Israeli leadership isn’t elected next time around, and if they want the territory back it must be ‘re-conquered’ and the UN will scream bloody murder again.

A great summary of Israel's current quandary, Haven. I couldn't have put it any better myself.

No wonder no one's posted a solution to the HAMAS rocket attack problem. It's easier, I guess, just to say that it's not a problem...

[ChalkLine]

Actually, the answer to the problem has been posted several times;

- Stop victimising the Palestinians, give them liveable land, stop killing their police officers, stop blockading thier movement, stop cutting off their power, stop cutting off their water, etc etc.

The cause of the attacks is hatred. You can't get a military solution to hatred.

The IRA actually launched rockets, but you never saw the RAF bombing Belfast.

It has been posted over and over that the cause of all this is the treatment of the Palestinians, they have nothing to live for.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by ChalkLine

Actually, the answer to the problem has been posted several times;

- Stop victimising the Palestinians, give them liveable land, stop killing their police officers, stop blockading thier movement, stop cutting off their power, stop cutting off their water, etc etc.

And then Hamas stops launching indescriminant rocket attacks against Israel?

So if militant members of some oppressed minority segregated into "reservations" in your country started launching rockets into your town or city (or a town or city where your family and/or lives) you would respond by demanding that your government immediately give them what they want and not respond militarily?

Once again, I agree with you on the long term solution but I find your support for Hamas baffling. If I was a Palestinian, I imagine I would be cursing and shaking my fist at the Israelis right now too. But, I think that I would also be cursing and shaking my fist at Hamas for provoking the Israelis and trying to court civilian casualties by hiding behind their own people.

"Hey, guys in ski masks! Stop launching those rockets at Israel, will you? It doesn't seem to be doing any of us any good at all!"

Hamas came to power due to its militant (some would say extremist) stand against Israel. Yes, they have popular support. Does that make their actions justifiable? Hamas knows that they stand to lose political power if peace ever comes to the region and that's why they will not allow it to happen. I suspect that's the main reason why Hamas decided not to renew the original cease-fire and instead, immediately renewed its indiscriminant rocket attacks against Israel. I understand why some Palestinians support violent means of protest but why educated third party observers try to defend blatant terrorist acts is beyond me.

It is troubling that people don't seem to have much of a problem with Israeli civilians getting blown up (after all, it's their fault; it's only a few of them, etc...) but are so incensed at Palestinian civilian casualties.

[ChalkLine]

Actually, I categorically do not support Hamas. I just don't have the somewhat stereotypical view that is handed out by the mass media (and I'm not inferring you do). I understand why Hamas is popular, and it distresses me that the side with the most to gain; Israel, creates (don't forget Hamas was originally funded by Israel to undermine Fatah) and then bolsters through their actions groups like this. Israel is capable of being proactive, the Palestinians as a people are not. Because of the conditions imposed on them they are almost entirely reactive.As I said, Hamas is a symptom, not an illness.

Like Hezbollah, Hamas is a group that is not just a resistance organisation. It is also a social groupment, a charity, a service and utility provider and a religious group. To state, as is often said in the commercial media, 'Hamas hides behind civilians' is purposefully wrong and purposefully misleading. Hamas is civilian, the majority of its fighters are ex-PA security forces, but also have a primarily civilian function. They don't sit around all day polishing their AKs. This intertwining of the military, paramilitary and non-military is well understood as a side-effect of the collapsed condition of society on the West Bank and Gaza, but a simplistic view is expounded to make them easy black-and-white foes.

A group such as Hamas is best destroyed by removing its reason for being. I endorse any method of undermining Hamas by bettering the lives of Palestinians, and I suggest that this would automatically better the lives of their Israeli neighbours as more working men would be supporting families and not throwing their lives away against the IDF or the civilians they shield.

Realistically, it was Israel just as much or arguably more who acted in bad faith. Hamas could not renew the cease-fire with the blockade killing the people by degrees, it was against their reason for being. If Israel had relaxed the blockade and allowed humanitarian aid back into Gaza, allowed food, allowed power and allowed drinking water, only then could Hamas feel that both sides were dealing in good faith. Hamas is a very reactive organisation, it responds strongly, simply and predictably. I don't for a second believe that no one in Israel's ruling elite didn't think the rockets would start up again if they kept up the horrible blockade.

This is where I put the blame. The 'tough on Hamas' crowd are being macho for the upcoming election, and they know that if they keep throttling Gaza they can count on Hamas to start shooting off their stupid Quassams in a show of defiance, and have a cassus belli to be hardcore.

[Targan]

I don't support Hamas either. Quite the opposite. They are a bunch of murderous terrorists thugs and religious fanatics and I don't like either terrorists or religious fanatics of any persuasion. Just because I oppose the Israeli military killing large numbers of innocent civilians doesn't mean I support Hamas.

[headquarters]

Israel is in a though spot -Palistinians are living in hell.

My humble opinion is that rather than give the Palistinians something to fight and die for ( i.e a cause/ against the brutal oppression ) the powers that be ( we all know who is on that list ) should give them something to live for -a prosperous and viable society and nation state.

In a somewhat similar case :I remember my reaction when I read the figures for the cost of the campaign against Jugo forces in Kosovo and Serbia and the funding allocated for rebuilding and aid .The war had gotten more than 100 times the cash the rebuilding had 3 years later.How is that for strategy ..

The US knew what to do after 45 - helping Europe rebuilding their economies.Thats what is gotta happen with the next wars to -otherwise there is no end .

Yeah.

I know it is a bit hopeful ,but the other way has been tried for decades now and I believe that the military operations costs way more than reconstruction will -especially in said area .


Towards the end - I go with Grimace who said : keep it civil. Its not bad now , but you know - middle east is a topic that easily sparks of into something bad .

[Mohoender]

I have seen that this came on the spot but I agree with Chalkline and Targan, no one is supporting Hamas around here.

I have said that we avoided a genocide and I had good reason to say that even as it was slightly overstated. Just look at the figures given in the press (I know they are unreliable but they are what we have know). During the first three days of the offensive (as the world was still looking away) almost 400 Palestinians (mostly civilians) had been killed and 1300 had been wounded. Today (after 6 more days of fighting), 100 more Palestinians (mostly militia) had been killed and about 400 more wounded (strangely I bet that they are mostly militia as well). So, by the way, Targan talking about it has some purpose and it changes things as it forces leaders to get some sense of measure. I don't know what the true translation of it is in English but in French we use to say that "the worse is when people of good remain silent". I 'm not saying that the israelis would approve a genocide but they could have comit one by simply going too far, porbably trying to avoid their own casualties: no israeli soldiers had been hit during the first three days, 1 has been killed and 30 wounded since the ground attack started.

Raellus you asked if the Israeli government should have remained idle. Of course, the answer is NO. However, someone compare that to the situation in Northern Ireland and that might be a very good comparison indeed. Here in France, the Jewish representative council (not the Jews themselves) keep saying that no country would have endured what Israel did endure for 8 years without moving. I realize that it is false as England endured it for almost 50 years (including the bloody sunday of 1972). The British (no matter how brutal some might have been) never responded by an all out offensive on civilians. Else, when the second intifada started in 2000 (I think) many Jews who had survived the Nazis and the camps demonstrated in the streets. They were not demonstrating in support of Israel but with Palestinians in support of the Palestinian population (the POPULATION, not the Fatah or the Hamas). They were given very little audience but one of them compared what was happening in Israel to what the Nazi did to the jews during WWII (not talking of the holocaust of course but thinking of privation, yellow stars...). I don't think that anyone can qualify survivors of the Shoah to be supportive of terrorism.

Are there some other ways. Obviously YES and that is true even with terrorism around. Rabin proved it until he was killed (by a Jew). The task was far from over but things were under way and terrorism (if still very active) was more fledgeling than it is now. Of course, Hamas is a terrorist movements but we are talking to terrorist all the time and that doesn't always matter that much. In that case it sounds more and more as a false excuse used by both side: "we are not talking to Palestinians they are terrorists, we are not talking to Israeli's they are bombing us and assassinating our leaders, we are not talking to Palestinians they are throwing rockets, we are ending the cease fire the Israelis are not leveling the blocus...", and in the meantime kids, women, and men from both sides are killed almost everyday with no future to look at.

Again, as I said, it's easy to say from behind a computer desk. I also agree with Grim,we had said it all and it's time to go away from that subject. Let's now hope that it will end soon and that, at some point, a few among the Israelis and Palestinians will be brave enough to end this needless bloodshed.

[Snake Eyes]

Part of me wishes they'd all hurry it up over there and just go ahead and drag us full on into WWIII so we can get on with the whole anti-christ/rapture "end of days" thing. I've grown weary of waiting for that other shoe to drop. You know - just to be contrary.

[Haven]

Since no one has really laid out a plan for Peace.

I like this article.

Course it doesn't really deal with the here and now....

http://www.newsweek.com/id/177840

[Snake Eyes]

I kind of liked Jack Ryan's plan as enumerated in Tom Clancy's The Sum of All Fears - turn policing of the Holy Land over the the Swiss Guard and park an armored cav regiment, an air wing, and a carrier battle group there to give them some teeth. Naive, but tidy.

[headquarters]

I know its dreadful -all of it .

All those people down there held hostage and prisoners top leaders and policies that are selfserving and wicked.I got kids - it really tears me up to see the pictures.

So here

http://www.hamas.no/hamas/index.php

a Norwegian company that deal in farming equipment -nothing to do with the midleeast WHATSOEVER -but just the name ...

[Mohoender]

Increasing problem with Gas coming from Russia. We all know that Russia cut the gas to Ukraine on January 2. Today, the quantity of gas delivered to the EU has dropped also. It is cut to Southern Europe and Turkey. Poland recieved only 15% of it. France received only 30%...

So far it is unclear who does what between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine claims that Russia reduced its deliveries to Europe. Russia claims that Ukraine cut three out of the four gazoduc on its soil.

As Europe is currently experiencing a cold period that might quickly become a true problem. Anyway, it's good for our imagination.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

Increasing problem with Gas coming from Russia. We all know that Russia cut the gas to Ukraine on January 2. Today, the quantity of gas delivered to the EU has dropped also. It is cut to Southern Europe and Turkey. Poland recieved only 15% of it. France received only 30%...

So far it is unclear who does what between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine claims that Russia reduced its deliveries to Europe. Russia claims that Ukraine cut three out of the four gazoduc on its soil.

As Europe is currently experiencing a cold period that might quickly become a true problem. Anyway, it's good for our imagination.

Moscow might be having a cashflow problem , and this i sa way of securing the necessary loans or extensions of payment or whatever...

It could also be a continuation of the good old "bash the Ukranians and give Nato the finger while doing it -cause we can just turn of th ef***ing gas and then what are you going to do???" -

realpolitik in other words.

I predict Sarkozy will be on television in less than a week if th ecold continues and state that the overtures from NATO /OTAN to Ukraine were premature and part of the failed policies of the Bush administration ..

.." bien sur..we `ave no-thing to do over there -ce la playground les Ruskis.."

Who could blame him .

Not us -we have all the gas we need ,thats why the Russians are flying all sorts of sorties along our borders and simulating nuclear missile attacks with old bombers against our cities-breaking of JUST before the incursion gets grave enough that our leaders actually would have to try an put something behind ourt lame and feeble protests to Moscow.

It is clear that the US and Russia arnt in the same league -but Russia is strong enough now ,that messing with them in any way is political madness-and Washington knows it .

NATO will not expand eastwards for the next couple of decades imho.

h for humble as always.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I predict Sarkozy will be on television in less than a week if th ecold continues and state that the overtures from NATO /OTAN to Ukraine were premature and part of the failed policies of the Bush administration ..

I agree with everything you say but I was not thinking of real life. About Sarko don't worry about him you already won your bet two or three time. Sarkozete is on TV about every week, he is our national muppet right now (of course everyone understood that I'm not very supportive of him ).

My problem is that he is moving a lot but I still don't have the feeling that he is really doing anything new or anything at all. Oops, I'm wrong he betrayed the constitution at least once and escaped his responsibilties as leader of the state at least once also. I msu give him credit for two things so: he made me read our constitution and made me care about what is going on in Politics. I get the funny feeling that I'm not the only one in that case and ,right now, what worries me the most is the fact that the French are not complaining anymore.

Currently he is gesticulating in the Middle East so he can argue that he is doing something. First, he better hurry, within twelve days he won't be the most interesting "people" on TV anymore. I just have a question, then. Where was he between June and December? He had access to all the reports from the UN (you know the one that are available to all) plus a few other I guess. What is funny is that he became president of EU almost right when the truce between Hamas and Israel came into effect. Saddly he had not care about it at all. Right, he had already too much at hand with Tibet, playing Chinese Poker and going to the Olympics (Plus, later, Russia and the financial crisis). Still, he could have cared a little in July but I guess that these peoples wouldn't have fit well on TV (after all, they were not dying under bombs and rockets, depending on what side you are talking of, and he was simply in a position to attempt something to avoid the current situation, why would he have done anything then?).

Please, to all Americans, couldn't you hurry things a bit (change that transition period dating back to the civil war may be?). I'm not Obamaniak but at least it will distract the world a bit and I'll be happy to see a new face on TV. After all, there is a 50/50 chance that he may be good, and at least he will be new. Moreover, he is good looking and doesn't look like a mix between Frankenstein and an Hungarian frog.

[Marc]

Ah Mohoender!
Your Sarkozete would be an excellent NPC... I will try to think about his statistics later...

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Marc

Ah Mohoender!
Your Sarkozete would be an excellent NPC... I will try to think about his statistics later...

LOOOL

[headquarters]

politics history thread spilled over into this one ..

Well at least maybe what I said could be used to make a case for a scenario where the "little games" like gas ,ukraine,georgia and increasing Russian ruthlessness in foreign politics sparks of a situation where things "get out of hand " and the world gets dragged into another big war .

[pmulcahy11b]

Well, I don't support Sarkozy -- but I'll take Carla Bruni...

As for not supporting the Constitution, Bush has everyone beat (except maybe Dick Cheney). Bush probably has rolls of toilet paper in the White House residence printed with the Constitution.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Well, I don't support Sarkozy -- but I'll take Carla Bruni...

As for not supporting the Constitution, Bush has everyone beat (except maybe Dick Cheney). Bush probably has rolls of toilet paper in the White House residence printed with the Constitution.

Ok for Carla Bruni but you'll need to be very very rich. Her main advantage is that you can hear distant sounds when she is singing. Plus you'll have to throw your kids out if you have some (She is exactly what you called a slut when you were at school). To her credit she has never hided that and it is not a problem in France. It might be for our president so. Moreover, if Sarko's ever visit US and If I was Barack's wife, I'll be checking hard on my husband.

I agree with you on Bush but it seems to me that you fix it somehow (better late than never). Sarko ruling over my country I don't find that to be anything lighter.

Oops, now, I agree we are going into Politics but, after all, with Sarko I can't help it. Moreover, the gas issue with Russia is an interesting one. The EU presidency made a declaration when it seem to be ordering Russia to deliver gas (press released). I don't know to what extend this is true but as Russia is still the owner of its gas, I can imagine plenty of diplomatic possibilities out of this.

[Marc]

About the gas conflict between Rússia and Ukraïna, both countries take profit from the lowering in the gas supply to the rest of Europe. Rússia is remembering to Europe our dependence an important energy source suplied for them. A good probe to check the european reaction. And Ukraïna is pressuring the rest of Europe, blaming the russians as the unique cause of the problem and insinuating that any other european country could have the same problem in the future. Wich is essentially true.

Anyway it's strange to realize how quickly are forgotten by Western Europe any strategic considerations after a short period without tension with Russia