Sweden in T2K

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

But I wonder if there might be some disagreement over whose sphere Poland falls into – the French have a historic relationship with Poland and I don’t think it’s a big stretch to presume that the French might want to have some influence with any post War Polish government (if for no other reason than to have a pro France government in place on Germany’s eastern border as a potential check against any future German aggression). I’m not imagining any large scale conflict, but I think there could be scope for some friction between Sweden and France in Poland – for example if both nations were to find out about the existence of the Black Madonna / Reset / any other plot macguffin you want to insert there’s the possibility of both sending in retrieval teams and those teams then clashing with each other, either directly or via proxies.

That's a very interesting point. I'd overlooked the French. One might see a bit of a cold war between emerging European powers France and Sweden. Perhaps they agree to spheres of influence (France acquires its historical claims to western Germany; Sweden does likewise in N. Poland and the Baltics) but covertly work to undermine one another.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On a further note, while Sweden once laid claim to land in Poland, the Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Germany (as Prussia and the Holy Roman Empire) and Russia during the days of empire, one of their staunchest allies at the time was... France.

The French association with Poland is obviously a little closer in time to the present day than the Swedish ownership of Poland so it's probably a lot more relevant to many Poles than any claim that Sweden once exercised. Poland regards Napoleon I as a hero of nationhood and their national anthem specifically mentions him and French efforts in Poland contributed to the Polish national myth.

There could be some very convoluted loyalties at play in the scenario you fellows have in mind; France & Sweden, Sweden & Poland, Poland & France. Although it obviously needs to consider just how far back in time some people are prepared to go in regards to their friendship & loyalty to rulers and/or allies from days long past.

As an aside, Polish lancers of the Napoleonic period became the model for many laterday light cavalry units and one particular item that is still in use today, albeit cermonial, makes direct connection to that heritage. The lance with its pennant, the colours of which, red & white, are immediately recognizable as the same colours as the Polish national flag.

[Trooper]

Canonical point of view:

V1: Nuclear strikes in Scandinavia (Boomer & obscure Finnish sourcebooks).
+ Twilight 2000 Referees manual p. 26

“First, military targets were hit. Then industrial targets clearly
vital to the war effort. Then economic targets of military importance.
Then transportation and communication, oil fields and
refineries. Then major industrial and oil centers in neutral nations,
to prevent their possible use by the other side. Numerous
warheads were aimed at logistical stockpiles and command-control
centers of the armies in the field. Almost accidentally,
the civilian political command structure was first decimated, then
eliminated. The exchange continued, fitfully and irregularly,
through November and early December, and then gradually
petered out.”

V2 &2.2: No nuclear strikes in Scandinavia.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Trooper

Canonical point of view:

V1: Nuclear strikes in Scandinavia (Boomer & obscure Finnish sourcebooks).
+ Twilight 2000 Referees manual p. 26

“First, military targets were hit. Then industrial targets clearly
vital to the war effort. Then economic targets of military importance.
Then transportation and communication, oil fields and
refineries. Then major industrial and oil centers in neutral nations,
to prevent their possible use by the other side. Numerous
warheads were aimed at logistical stockpiles and command-control
centers of the armies in the field. Almost accidentally,
the civilian political command structure was first decimated, then
eliminated. The exchange continued, fitfully and irregularly,
through November and early December, and then gradually
petered out.”

V2 &2.2: No nuclear strikes in Scandinavia.

But France seems to have survived being hit by nuclear weapons from the canonical point of view, at least there is no reference to it in V1. And I think Japan, Switzerland etc also survive. If France which is a major power with its own nuclear arsenal is not targeted by nuclear weapons then I think Sweden might have also survived .

[Ewan]

Originally Posted by RN7

But France seems to have survived being hit by nuclear weapons from the canonical point of view, at least there is no reference to it in V1. And I think Japan, Switzerland etc also survive. If France which is a major power with its own nuclear arsenal is not targeted by nuclear weapons then I think Sweden might have also survived .

In V1 Referee's Manual page 26 it mentions that in 1997 that major industrial and oil centres in neutral countries had been attacked with nuclear weapons. Then in the entry for 1998 "In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stood virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm".
The second edition has "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO".

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Ewan

In V1 Referee's Manual page 26 it mentions that in 1997 that major industrial and oil centres in neutral countries had been attacked with nuclear weapons. Then in the entry for 1998 "In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stood virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm".

I wonder if the writers were considering Scandinavia when they wrote that. Although technically a part of Europe, I wonder if Scandinavia was accidentally overlooked, being as the writers were Americans, and the region has its own name. Probably not, but I wonder why Sweden, sandwiched between two countries that experienced heavy fighting (Norway & Finland) isn't ever specifically mentioned. Perhaps Sweden did get shellacked, but even it did, I imagine it would still be significantly better off than its Scandinavian neighbors c.2001. I don't think it did, though. How many major industrial and oil centers did Sweden have when that was written?

[RN7]

The issue about France being targeted or not by nuclear weapons in the Twilight War has been frequently argued on this site and others for years. I can remember arguing about this online on the old 2300AD sites nearly 20 years ago. Nobody could ever agree because there is no direct canon reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons in any sourcebook, or at least no one has so far come across it or a list of French nuclear targets. Two main conclusions were reached. The first is that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons, and the second was that France was lightly targeted by nuclear weapons, i.e. some oil refineries and nothing else. I support the first conclusion.

From your quote from Twilight 2000 1st Edition Core Rules, Page 26

Originally Posted by Ewan

In V1 Referee's Manual page 26 it mentions that in 1997 that major industrial and oil centres in neutral countries had been attacked with nuclear weapons. Then in the entry for 1998 "In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stood virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm". The second edition has "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO".

This quote is from two separate paragraphs (separated by four paragraphs in fact) with different contexts. Although it could be implied from this that France was targeted by nuclear weapons, it doesn't specifically state that France was hit by nuclear weapons or does it give a list of French targets either. Other references to France from this book and other SB imply that France survived the nuclear war in very good shape. If it was targeted by nuclear weapons this would not be the case.

The way I look at it is through French reactions before, during and after the nuclear exchanges.

In 1996 France withdraws from NATO is response to German Reunification through a West German military invasion of East Germany.

From RDF SB. Page 15

"The French regarded the West German invasion of East Germany as lunatic. When the American, Canadian, and British troops crossed the East German frontier in support of the West Germans, the French were among the most vocal opponents of the move and were the first to officially withdraw from NATO, and declare their neutrality."

After this and before the nuclear exchanges France does not cooperate in any way with NATO.

In 1997 there is no direct reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons. If France was targeted then you would expect the French who are a nuclear power to retaliate against whoever attacked France. As far as I know there is no canon reference to the French using any nuclear weapons against the Soviet Union or NATO. The British who have a similar sized nuclear arsenal to France and who were attacked by Soviet weapons, did retaliate against the Soviet Union with nuclear SLBM's and also launched a nuclear airstrike on the Kola Peninsula in 1998. Why did France not attack the Soviet Union with their nuclear arsenal?

In 1998 the French invade Germany and the Netherlands

From Going Home SB, Page 29

"In January 1998, the French government authorized its army to occupy all territory west of the Rhine to secure a solid geographic barrier and guarantee its frontiers against the hordes of refugees and renegade military personnel which were swarming across the border. In 2000, the French army continues to occupy this area."

If France was attacked by Soviet nuclear weapons you would expect the French to have rejoined NATO and send their army into Germany to support NATO against the Warsaw Pact. But they invade and occupy the German Rhineland the whole of the Netherlands south of the Rhine River. Germany and the Netherlands are NATO countries

In the summer of 1998 they send a fully equipped army Corp with air and naval support to the Middle East.

From RDF SB. Page 8

"On August 24th, the lead ships of a French troop convoy sailed into Al Kuwayt Harbor. Their cargo was the 9th Marine Division. Two days later, forward elements of the French 11th Airborne Division began landing in Djibouti. The French government made it clear that these forces were there to assist the host governments in maintaining order."

From RDF SB. Page 19

" The governments of Kuwayt and Saudi Arabia gave permission for France to station troops in their countries (to the chagrin of some Americans in the region). The Paris government responded quickly and by fall of 1998, the 9th Marine Infantry Division and the 2nd Brigade of the 11th Airborne Division were in the region along with supporting elements. There they have remained, providing a visible symbol of France's commitment to the stability of the region"

The French were in remarkably good shape to send a force of this size to the Middle East if they were hit by nuclear weapons. Also France didn't side with either American or Soviet forces in the Middle East, playing a strictly neutral role in the fighting. If either the U.S. or the Soviet Union had attacked France with nuclear weapons you would expect the French to be fighting either of them in the Middle East.

Also..

From RDF SB. Page 19

"In 1998 the Franco-Belgian Union was formed, Senegal and Djibouti became member nations"

France has now created a new power bloc in Europe and Africa, and by default with other French territories in Latin America, the Caribbean, the Indian Ocean and the Pacific, that is separate or even rival to NATO and the Warsaw Pact. For me this implies that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons. In regards to Sweden I have not seen any direct reference to a nuclear attack on Sweden either.

[The Dark]

Originally Posted by RN7

The issue about France being targeted or not by nuclear weapons in the Twilight War has been frequently argued on this site and others for years. I can remember arguing about this online on the old 2300AD sites nearly 20 years ago. Nobody could ever agree because there is no direct canon reference to France being targeted by nuclear weapons in any sourcebook, or at least no one has so far come across it or a list of French nuclear targets. Two main conclusions were reached. The first is that France was not targeted by nuclear weapons, and the second was that France was lightly targeted by nuclear weapons, i.e. some oil refineries and nothing else. I support the first conclusion.

If John Farson's summary of the Finnish books is correct, the second conclusion is canon - there were nuclear strikes, but primarily along the coast.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by The Dark

If John Farson's summary of the Finnish books is correct, the second conclusion is canon - there were nuclear strikes, but primarily along the coast.

The answer to that question would be if the Finnish Sourcebook was published by Game Designer's Workshop which is basically what canon is?

[The Dark]

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille). I don't remember France getting any mentions in v1 other than two sentences in the Referee's Manual and a tiny portion of the map in Going Home.

For v2.2, it's explicitly stated on page 226 that "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks...", so for that timeline, France was nuked unless the timeline from the core rules is tossed.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille). I don't remember France getting any mentions in v1 other than two sentences in the Referee's Manual and a tiny portion of the map in Going Home

I've seen that map and it also shows the Belgian towns of Antwerp and Ghent as ruined alongside Lille. Another map in Going Home also shows the German city of Hamburg in ruins, and we know from Going Home itself (page 21) that Hamburg wasn't subject to a nuclear attack as it was so heavily bombed beforehand that the Soviet spared it. From previous discussions about the map that shows Lille in ruins on other forums, the consensus was that Lille was targeted by vengeful German and Dutch bombing raids during and after the French occupation of the Rhineland.

Originally Posted by The Dark

For v2.2, it's explicitly stated on page 226 that "France was still subjected to nuclear attacks...", so for that timeline, France was nuked unless the timeline from the core rules is tossed.

If you want to go with V2 then France was hit by nuclear strikes and the country really isn't in very good shape which can be seen in the description of France on Page 225. If that is the case then the French will not be sending the FAR to the Middle East as they haven't the military ability to do so, and the French also have little or no influence in Africa or over their colonies around the world. I prefer V1

[Raellus]

I don't know for sure, but I don't think Farson's Finnish Sourcebook was published by FFE/GDW, at least not outside of Finland. Therefore, I don't think it's canon.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by The Dark

I think I found a decent piece of circumstantial evidence for v1. On the map from Going Home, in northeast France is a rubble marker labeled (LILLE). Rubble is either nuked or destroyed in conventional fighting (per the Referee's Manual), and there was no significant conventional fighting in France (their line on the Rhine would be well to the east of Lille).

There is a refinery in LILLE (or at least there was one in WWII)

https://books.google.com/books?id=NP...0lille&f=false

According to its wikipedia page it is considered to be the most Flemish French city, so it also could have been destroyed by rioting at some point.

[Rainbow Six]

AFAIK the Finnish material is based on the original GDW material but is effectively a standalone work with its own modified timeline. I certainly don't think it's canon.

To the best of my knowledge GDW never published anything that definitively stated one way or the other whether Sweden (or France for that matter) was nuked, although there's the occasional nugget of gold buried in Challenge magazines (e.g. the article on Italy for 2300 that mentions the Papacy relocating to Peruggia). If there is anything I suspect that's where it would be.

Personally, I think limited strikes on Sweden (and France) are both well within the realm of feasibility / canon.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by kato13

There is a refinery in LILLE (or at least there was one in WWII)

https://books.google.com/books?id=NP...0lille&f=false

According to its wikipedia page it is considered to be the most Flemish French city, so it also could have been destroyed by rioting at some point.

I don't think there is an oil refinery in Lille anymore, at least not one that I can find anyhow. The nearest French refinery is I believe in Dunkirk. A lot of French oil refineries seem to have closed or are not in operation at the moment, certainly compared to 20 years ago. Probably something to do with the proliferation of French nuclear reactors which has replaced a lot of oil and fossil fuel sources for electricity in France.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Personally, I think limited strikes on Sweden (and France) are both well within the realm of feasibility / canon.

I think its based on your personal preference for V1 or V2.

I've always preferred V1 as the Soviet Union and the timeline and history is less complicated. In V2 there was a limited nuclear strike on France, but with that there is a bit of a trade off with the military power that France would have in the aftermath. I've always liked a big French force in the Middle East and in other locations, which gives an extra component to the traditional two dimensional US-Soviet rivalry.

[Antenna]

Hi gang

I had a whole homepage devouted to GDW RPGs, and one section to Sweden in T2k. To make a long story short, my account at the webhotel was courapted. but I have recently been able to restore most of the pages and in a soon future gonna put the pages on the net.

Antenna

[Raellus]

Welcome back! We've missed you.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

I don't think there is an oil refinery in Lille anymore, at least not one that I can find anyhow. The nearest French refinery is I believe in Dunkirk. A lot of French oil refineries seem to have closed or are not in operation at the moment, certainly compared to 20 years ago. Probably something to do with the proliferation of French nuclear reactors which has replaced a lot of oil and fossil fuel sources for electricity in France.

Per the 2nd edition France was definitely nuked - and its seems to imply that Lyons and Paris were nuked or at least heavily damaged - see the comment about Marseilles

"Despite being neutral, France was subjected to nuclear strikes to deny its port and oil refining facilities to NATO. Damage was generally confined to coastal areas, but casualties were severe. Riots and civil confusion caused by the war and the influx of refugees forced the government to close France's borders, then occupy all territories west of the Rhine. A free-fire zone (commonly called La Zone Morte - the Dead Zone) has been established within 50km (31 miles) east of the Rhine. Officially, the border is closed to non-French citizens, but the guards are generally open to bribes. The border with Spain is closed, but often crossed by smugglers. The Union Corse (Corsican criminal underworld) dominate a thriving black market in the region. The government is increasingly repressive, but life in most areas is tolerable.
Some areas, particularly the mountains, are in open rebellion, and martial law is in effect. The government in the southern areas is corrupt and dominated by the Union Corse. Marseilles is the largest undamaged city in the country, though it is in a bad state compared to its pre-war condition. Some trade between Europe and the eastern Mediterranean passes through the city, which is entirely run by the Union Corse.

Most of France is organised (by the French government and military in most areas, by the Union Corse in some southern areas). A few areas in the mountains are disputed or independent. The area between the old border and the Rhine is a combination of terrorised, insular and cantonments. La Zone Morte is devastated"

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Antenna

Hi gang

I had a whole homepage devouted to GDW RPGs, and one section to Sweden in T2k. To make a long story short, my account at the webhotel was courapted. but I have recently been able to restore most of the pages and in a soon future gonna put the pages on the net.

Antenna

Saw this posted on a wiki about Sweden - did this come from your pages? They actually had you listed as an external source

http://twilight2000.wikia.com/wiki/Sweden

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Antenna

Hi gang

I had a whole homepage devouted to GDW RPGs, and one section to Sweden in T2k. To make a long story short, my account at the webhotel was courapted. but I have recently been able to restore most of the pages and in a soon future gonna put the pages on the net.

Antenna

Great to see you back on! Have you ever considered trying to publish what you have officially on Sweden? Marc Miller is looking for more material for new official releases - both Raellus and I have released new official modules/sourcebooks for the game

[Antenna]

Hi again

I checked RN7s OOB couple of days ago, it is good for as an OOB for the era around 1965 to 1972. An OOB that I had was built around a history from 1995 to 2000 (soon it will be aviable again). In my OOB for the T2k pages of mine, around 40 to 50% of the brigades will be there. During, as started around 1968 to 2000, the downsized armed forces was an idea from socialdemocrates to build an expert armed forces.

The history for the downzised forces is 38 brigades (1965) to 4 active battalions and 2 in reserve (2015)

Finally the politics in Sweden has understood that the old conscriptions armed forces is the way we defend Sweden, Conscriptions was voted from all parties as a yes, only the Leftpary (communists) voted No or put down their votes.

So Swedish armed forces with around 25 to 32 brigades will take 5 to 8 years.

Back to the T2k story of mine.
Sweden bought MTLBs and BMP-1 from reunited Germany and Leopard 2A4 before the hostilities broke out.

The 120 of Leopards 2A5 wasn't bought to Swedish Armed forces (in top of my mind they was bought 2001 or 2002 in real world)

The link to RN7s OOB of Sweden wasnt åosted due to fumble fingers but it is the 19 post in this thread

Antenna

[Raellus]

Antenna, what do you think of the proposed relatively intact Sweden attempting to spread its influence to northern Poland and the Baltic republics?

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Antenna

I checked RN7s OOB couple of days ago, it is good for as an OOB for the era around 1965 to 1972.

My OOB for Swedish forces is sourced in the main from IISS Military Balance for 1990-1991 and 1991-1992.

[Antenna]

Originally Posted by RN7

My OOB for Swedish forces is sourced in the main from IISS Military Balance for 1990-1991 and 1991-1992.

Well, good that you are alive and well =)

You probably have better sources than me. for that 30+ Armed brigades, today it is in a build up faces from those 6 battalions.

Antenna

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Antenna

for that 30+ Armed brigades, today it is in a build up faces from those 6 battalions.

Today Sweden couldn't manage to raise an army that size. The current Swedish army has less than 7,000 active troops of two brigades with nine combat battalions and three companies, and another seven support battalions and four companies. But they also have 40 Home Guard battalions in reserve

[Antenna]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Antenna, what do you think of the proposed relatively intact Sweden attempting to spread its influence to northern Poland and the Baltic republics?

Well the lack of fuel to stahe that operation makes it impossible to do.

[Olefin]

Sweden has no oil production of its own - it does have four oil refineries but at least two of them would probably be targets based on the size of oil refineries hit worldwide

These two might still be around but not sure where the smaller Gothenburg refinery is located in relation to the Preem one

Gothenburg Refinery (78,000 bpd refining capacity)
Nynäshamn Refinery (90,000 bpd refining capacity)

The two Preem refineries would probably be taken out by now - either using conventional attack or nukes

Gothenburg Refinery (125,000 bpd refining capacity) (Preem)
Lysekil Refinery (220,000 bpd refining capacity) (Preem)

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Sweden has no oil production of its own - it does have four oil refineries but at least two of them would probably be targets based on the size of oil refineries hit worldwide

These two might still be around but not sure where the smaller Gothenburg refinery is located in relation to the Preem one

Gothenburg Refinery (78,000 bpd refining capacity)
Nynäshamn Refinery (90,000 bpd refining capacity)

The two Preem refineries would probably be taken out by now - either using conventional attack or nukes

Gothenburg Refinery (125,000 bpd refining capacity) (Preem)
Lysekil Refinery (220,000 bpd refining capacity) (Preem)

If you attack Sweden which was a neutral country during the Twilight War timeline then Sweden is going to join the war against you (Soviet Union). The Swedish army when fully mobilised was big and well equipped, and it would have been a major factor in the Arctic and Scandinavia. It's entry into the war in Norway and Finland would have had a major impact on operations there, and also possibly on the southern shore of the Baltic. Sweden also had a well trained and equipped air force and navy, designed specifically for operations in Scandinavia and the Baltic Sea.

I can't see the Soviets launching a nuclear attack on Sweden for the above reasons, and also because Swedish forces are at full strength or would still be nearly at that level in the aftermath of a limited nuclear strike on Sweden. However once the war goes nuclear the Soviets might go for the oil refineries to deny them to both Sweden and NATO, and they wouldn't need nuclear weapons to do so. Oil refineries are fairly combustible by nature and a few well placed airstrikes against them could do the job.

Sweden has no crude oil resources and is 100% import dependent. Oil accounts for 28% of Sweden's primary energy supply, although in the 1990's it would have been well over 30%. Renewable energy (mainly hydro) account for 35% and nuclear power accounts for 30%. Hydro and nuclear account for most of Sweden's electricity generation. Although overall oil consumption has declined in Sweden, its use in the transport sector has continued to rise and the armed forces would be highly dependent on it. Currently half of oil imports come from Russia, with rest mainly coming from Norway and Denmark. In the mid-1990's Norway would have been by far the major source of oil imports.

Sweden imports most of its oil through the tanker terminal in Goteborg, with rest coming through Stockholm and Malmo. Oil distribution is largely by road as there are relatively few pipelines due to the small Swedish market. There are five oil refineries in Sweden with a capacity of 407,000 barrels a day. The largest is at Lysekil with a capacity of 210,000 barrels. There are three refineries in Goteborg, and another one at Nynashamn near Stockholm. Sweden also has 30 coastal and inland oil storage facilities located across the country. The largest oil storage depots are at Goteborg, Lysekil, Gavle, Stockholm, Norrkoping and Malmo and account for two thirds of Swedish oil storage capacity.

[Olefin]

The Russians attacked a bunch of neutral countries during the war - they hit France with nukes, a bunch of African countries, nuked Venezuela and Mexico and other countries to deny the US the refineries there

and considering how small Sweden's armed forces are I highly doubt they cared too much about getting attacked by Sweden