New Product Release: Tara Romaneasca (Romania)

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Olefin,

You’ve referenced Frank Frey’s unpublished notes and an article in an unofficial fanzine to support your claim that the 173rd shouldn't be in Romania.

Can you supply a quote from any v1 material published by GDW that explicitly gives a location for the 173rd Airborne Brigade? (Other than the Romania sourcebook obviously).

Ok so lets see - Frank Frey was writing for V1 - here is the forum link

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2303

So lets begin


#20 Report Post
Old 05-26-2010, 11:39 AM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Greetings,

The 173rd Airborne Brigade was deployed to Kenya for several reasons.
1.) To provide security for the port of Mombasa and for the oil refineries there.
2.) To help secure Kenya from the depradations of any number of warlord armies so that the country could continue to serve as a staging area for operations in the Gulf.
3.) MilGov cut a deal with the French. The French supply the vehicles and the equipment and the US supplies the manpower for a cut of the oil. This arrangement, BTW, has led to a number of American paras wearing the famous French "lizard" pattern camo fatigues.
In effect, the 173rd are mercenaries fighting for France. Sort of an American Foreign Legion if you will.

Out Here,
Frank Frey


#27 Report Post
Old 05-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Raellus,

According to my notes, the 173rd was shipped to Kenya in early 1997. There is nothing in my notes about how they were deployed. That's all I've got.

Frank Frey

Old 05-28-2010, 02:53 PM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Raellus,

No problem...Airlift would make the most sense at that time. As far as cutting deals with the French, yea, 1998 sounds right. It wasn't an overnight thing either.When the final deal was cut, it basically just formalized on paper what had been going for a while.
As for the equipment, let your imagination run with it. Hell, IIRC I had an American armored cav unit that had been re-equipped with AMX-13's. The aviation unit (228th Aviation Bn.) was using a lot of Gazelles and Pumas.
Hope this helps.

Frank Frey

[Olefin]

then we have this

5-31-2010, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorseSoldier View Post
For a single brigade, especially without the full-up suite RSTA assets available these days and limited airlift, just securing the Kenyan border against random marauders spilling over from the Sudan (and Ethiopia, Somalia, Tanzania, and Uganda) would be a serious trick. Don't really need major invasions to have the 173rd and the Kenyan military stretched to the limit with the whole continent sliding into chaos.
OK. But in mid-'97, when the 173rd deployed (according to Frey), adequate airlift and fuel for the brigade's aircraft was available and the Kenyan military is no slouch. If it's simply a matter of assisting the Kenyans in counter-insurgency operations, elements of the 5th SFG would probably be adequate. A reinforced BCT is overkill, especially considering the need for such a unit elsewhere. With the U.S. engaged in full-scale conventional warfare in Europe, the Middle East, and Asia, an entire Airborne BCT could be put to use almost anywhere else BUT Kenya. IMO, a conventional Tanzanian invasion makes the commitment of the 173rd in Kenya a much more justifiable investment. Once they're there, the breakdown of the world's transportation networks following the TDM and the continued presence of large numbers of marauders on Kenya's frontiers explains the BCT's continued presence there.

Thanks, though, for the lead on the 5th SFG. I'll have to take a look at my RDF sourcebook. I could definitely use them in my scenario.


RDF is version 1 not version 2

then we have this


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Old 06-01-2010, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HorseSoldier View Post
It's a brief reference in the text of RDF about 5th SFG having teams working with Masai tribesmen, if I remember right. As noted, it would be 3rd Group if they still got reactivated in 1990, which would possibly have happened in the Twilight timeline as well. I'm pretty sure the reactivation was planned as part of the Reagan-era plus up of the US military before the walls came down, even if it post-dated that by a year or so.
You've got a good memory. This is all that the RDF sourcebook has to say on the subject:

"SOCCENT: Last (but certainly not the least) of CENTCOM's component commands is Special Operations Command Central Command (SOCCENT).

Its Special Forces A Teams are in action from Iran to Kenya and work with such ethnic/racial groups as the Kurdish hill tribes of southwestern Iran and the Masai warriors of Kenya." (RDF Sourcebook, p.18)

[Olefin]

Ok Rainbow now you have this - Frank's Podcast where he referred to the unreleased Kenya module - posted by Raellus


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Old 06-01-2010, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by HorseSoldier View Post
It's a brief reference in the text of RDF about 5th SFG having teams working with Masai tribesmen, if I remember right. As noted, it would be 3rd Group if they still got reactivated in 1990, which would possibly have happened in the Twilight timeline as well. I'm pretty sure the reactivation was planned as part of the Reagan-era plus up of the US military before the walls came down, even if it post-dated that by a year or so.
You've got a good memory. This is all that the RDF sourcebook has to say on the subject:

"SOCCENT: Last (but certainly not the least) of CENTCOM's component commands is Special Operations Command Central Command (SOCCENT).

Its Special Forces A Teams are in action from Iran to Kenya and work with such ethnic/racial groups as the Kurdish hill tribes of southwestern Iran and the Masai warriors of Kenya." (RDF Sourcebook, p.18)

Then we have this podcast with Frank too

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very interesting time indeed - listened to a lot of the blog tonight - he had a bunch of great info indeed

never had heard of the MiG Mountain scenario he talked about - or having the USS Jacksonville (Los Angeles class SSN) being part of the US forces in the RDF Sourcebook (which would be an interesting addition) with a brand new reactor core and fully fueled up

and like how he has the US and the French stomping the LRA in Uganda as part of Lions in Twilight - that is something I have foreshadowed in my East African Sourcebook with how the LRA has managed to piss off both the US and the French - and it definitely felt good when I heard Frank answer that question on what source books he wished had been written and he immediately said "Kenya"

and six 16 inch shells hitting the Kirov from one salvo - kiss it goodbye Ivan!

and War of the Everglades, the Last University and the Key West Naval station scenarios that were mentioned that Tom Mulkey was working on - damn love to see those

and hearing that Frank is actually thinking of posting MiG Mountain so we can enjoy it - damn very nice!

[Olefin]

So do you want me to keep going with all the references that Frank Frey made to his V1 unreleased module, his references to it along with the RDF (which is a V1 module) by the way, etc..

Frank was a member here, was a canon author (and soon if his health holds up will be again for V4), wrote the RDF and Kings Ransom - both of which detail what was going on in the Middle East for V1 and which reference US troops in Kenya in both of them, repeatedly discussed his unpublished module with Raellus which stated that the 173rd was deployed to Kenya

So should I go on posting more forum discussions, more podcasts, more of what Frank himself posted on here? Last I heard this thread was a discussion about Romania but you threw down the gauntlet so I can keep posting the threads and discussion

Including Frank's notes on Somalia, the PARA, etc..

Was it officially published - no it wasnt as stated by Frank - but I would take the word of the man who wrote a ton of the canon and lots of the modules and sourcebooks as saying that what he presented was what was going to be published

Oh and for the record Romania isnt official canon unless stated as such by Marc Miller - East Africa Sourcebook is however

as was stated repeatedly - his notes were about the "Lions of Twilight" which was a bare-bones writeup about the 173rd Airborne Brigade being sent to secure Mombassa in Kenya and the refinery therein to make sure the oil flowed to the RDF in Iran. Thats about as V1 as you get

[.45cultist]

Got it, off to the printer!

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Was it officially published - no it wasnt as stated by Frank

Good, so we're agreed that there's nothing published by GDW that pinpoints the 173rd's location in V1 so no evidence to support your claim that Rae and Teg made an 'error' (your word, not mine) placing it in Romania.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh and for the record Romania isnt official canon unless stated as such by Marc Miller - East Africa Sourcebook is however

To be the best of my knowledge no one has claimed canon status for the Romania sourcebook. And no one has disputed that the East Africa sourcebook is canon for v2.2. only - you confirmed that yourself.

Originally Posted by Olefin

Its released for V2.2 canon

You might want to update your forum signature to make that clearer. I'd hate for anyone to buy your sourcebook thinking it's canon for V1 and then make a claim against the forum for false advertising.

[Olefin]

Multiple posts by Frank Frey show intent as to what was going to be published - that’s all you need to show that the 173rd is there in V1. Or are you saying that Frank was lying?

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Multiple posts by Frank Frey show intent as to what was going to be published - that’s all you need to show that the 173rd is there in V1. Or are you saying that Frank was lying?

I'm just asking about what was published.

[Olefin]

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2099

With Frank showing exactly how the 173rd was reconstituted, what battalions made it up and that it was sent to Africa specifically to guard the refinery and port at Mombasa.

That shows intent of what was to be published and it’s posted by Frank Frey.

Black and white - the 173rd is in Africa

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Olefin

That shows intent of what was to be published and it’s posted by Frank Frey

When was it published?

[pmulcahy11b]

Basically, I'll do what I always do -- read, modify, mine.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Ok so lets see - Frank Frey was writing for V1 - here is the forum link

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2303

So lets begin


#20 Report Post
Old 05-26-2010, 11:39 AM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Greetings,

The 173rd Airborne Brigade was deployed to Kenya for several reasons.
1.) To provide security for the port of Mombasa and for the oil refineries there.
2.) To help secure Kenya from the depradations of any number of warlord armies so that the country could continue to serve as a staging area for operations in the Gulf.
3.) MilGov cut a deal with the French. The French supply the vehicles and the equipment and the US supplies the manpower for a cut of the oil. This arrangement, BTW, has led to a number of American paras wearing the famous French "lizard" pattern camo fatigues.
In effect, the 173rd are mercenaries fighting for France. Sort of an American Foreign Legion if you will.

Out Here,
Frank Frey


#27 Report Post
Old 05-28-2010, 01:51 PM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Raellus,

According to my notes, the 173rd was shipped to Kenya in early 1997. There is nothing in my notes about how they were deployed. That's all I've got.

Frank Frey

Old 05-28-2010, 02:53 PM
Frank Frey Frank Frey is offline
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Raellus,

No problem...Airlift would make the most sense at that time. As far as cutting deals with the French, yea, 1998 sounds right. It wasn't an overnight thing either.When the final deal was cut, it basically just formalized on paper what had been going for a while.
As for the equipment, let your imagination run with it. Hell, IIRC I had an American armored cav unit that had been re-equipped with AMX-13's. The aviation unit (228th Aviation Bn.) was using a lot of Gazelles and Pumas.
Hope this helps.

Frank Frey

I could care less about "cannon" history but this idea from Frank has me scratching my head. Frank's history makes no sense.

1) WHY would the US need the French to supply vehicles to a US rapid-deployment unit? Everything they have is air deployable and even mobilization-only units have vehicles in storage at Bragg. This is especially "problematic" when you consider that the French needed NATO's help with airlifting the units for Operation Serval because they didn't have enough strategic lift capacity to do it themselves.

2) What in the H**l are the French doing in Kenya, a former BRITISH colony with a BRITISH MILITARY PRESENCE since the early 1980s? I can see the French in Djibouti, Ethiopia, Algeria, Libya, Mali, the Central African Republic, and even the Congo. Kenya is a little too British-leaning (with actual US and British troops in the country) to ask for French help.

3) Why would the 173rd be wearing French uniforms and using French vehicles when they can just get a resupply from Manda Bay/Camp Tiger right in Kenya? Camp Tiger and Manda Bay were established in 1992 and have operated continuously ever since. They have both radar stations and radio intercept stations just like the US base (Lemonier) in Djibouti (which is just down the street from the French). Manda Bay and Camp Tiger have a large deep-water port/jetty, a large airfield, and permanent base facilities like housing, PX, and various training ranges. The African Union often trains there.

I just don't see Frank's reasoning here.

[Olefin]

First off Rainbow - per Frank its HIS UNPUBLISHED MODULE - he never said he published it - but he sure gave us all kinds of details on it - more than enough to verify intent and purpose of the 173rd.

Ever done patent law - I have FYI - he came up with the 173rd being stood up in 1995 and then being sent to Kenya to guard the refinery and harbor at Mombasa.

He never got around to publishing it but he has stated both here and on earlier versions of the forum exactly what his intent was, what its general composition was and that it was originally going to be a reinforcement for CENTCOM - and then got sent to Kenya instead.

Nothing anywhere in any of his notes or posts on this forum or any other of the earlier forums about it going to Romania or that it would be posted anywhere by 1997 anywhere else than Kenya - and that it would still be there by the time the game timeline kicked off in 2000.

He was one of the canon authors who released multiple books about the Orbat of the major combatants in the Twilight War as well as the only two books released about CENTCOM - which included references to American forces in Kenya.

What he doesnt say is "I created the concept of the 173rd being in the game and you can have it posted in Kenya or maybe somewhere else if you feel like it". Pretty clearly in multiple posts spread over multiple forums, podcasts, etc. over a long period of years its location is always Kenya by 1997 - whether you or Raellus or Tegyrius agree or not - or you can ignore his notes, posts, podcasts, etc. and say so what who cares what Frank Frey said as to where the 173rd went.

Which is what the Romania module has done.

And yes you can argue details - i.e. I totally agree with Swaghauler the French wouldnt be there at all except maybe to make sure they get a share of whatever oil is coming out of the refinery - but the placement and existence of the 173rd in Kenya per the canon author who created the whole orbat for CENTCOM and published both V1 modules that took place in the area? I will go with Frank on that.

[VCDR]

I purchased the sourcebook earlier and I am extremely impressed with the product. As an FS-01 career member of the United States Foreign Service, I found the U.S. State Department chapter accurate and well-researched. Kudos to the authors.

[Ursus Maior]

Oh, wow, folks, this reads like there is a discussion about what imagination is more imaginative. And I get the sentiment, but I think this community can raise to higher standards.

In my opinion, unless Marc Miller has canonized a publication for an edition, any material is non-canonic. That being said, we can all enjoy a well laid out book with interesting ideas, can't we? Aren't we all picking every publication for the juicy parts anyway?

[Olefin]

Picking the 173rd for being in Romania flew in the face of multiple posts over the course of years by the multiple canon module writer who created the idea of the 173rd as part of the T2K canon. He made it clear over and over - and ignoring that fact is not how you come up with a new module or sourcebook. Especially when one of the writers of the Romania book had an extensive article in one of the fanzines about the 173rd being in Kenya.

[Bulldog1972]

Bought it this morning & found out that the ToC was hyperlinked by accident.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Basically, I'll do what I always do -- read, modify, mine.

Me too. By the way guys, IF I post something in this forum, please feel free to use it or modify it as you see fit. The only thing I ask is that if you post it to another website, you note it was my work so someone doesn't come back and accuse me of plagiarizing my own stuff. And yes, this has happened to me in a Runequest forum.

Swag.

[pmulcahy11b]

Couldn't we find Tegyrius an equivalent RL, NG, Reserve, or (presently) Inactive unit that could be slotted into the module in an update? Tegyrius, would you be amenable to that?

[Tegyrius]

Gentlemen, I apologize for the derail you had to endure to get to actual productive discussion of the book. I thank you for your patience, and our host for his intervention.

Originally Posted by VCDR

I purchased the sourcebook earlier and I am extremely impressed with the product. As an FS-01 career member of the United States Foreign Service, I found the U.S. State Department chapter accurate and well-researched. Kudos to the authors.

Thank you! I have a couple of professional contacts in State and they, along with a copy of Inside a U.S. Embassy, were invaluable in helping me produce that chapter. I'm glad they didn't lead me astray.

Originally Posted by Bulldog1972

Bought it this morning & found out that the ToC was hyperlinked by accident.

Oh, no, that was no accident. The ToC is hyperlinked deliberately.

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Me too. By the way guys, IF I post something in this forum, please feel free to use it or modify it as you see fit. The only thing I ask is that if you post it to another website, you note it was my work so someone doesn't come back and accuse me of plagiarizing my own stuff. And yes, this has happened to me in a Runequest forum.

It is (usually) fun to see the use to which people put my work. It's out there to be used.

(On the other hand, when I was on the Spycraft design team, someone applied to join the team and plagiarized my own fan work for their "writing sample" submission. That was a different kind of fun.)

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Couldn't we find Tegyrius an equivalent RL, NG, Reserve, or (presently) Inactive unit that could be slotted into the module in an update? Tegyrius, would you be amenable to that?

Thank you for trying to be reasonable, Paul, but... no, not really. It's not my work. It's a shared, coauthored work between myself and Raellus, so I'm not going to make unilateral decisions without consulting him.

Additionally, this book is explicitly for first edition. Olefin's work is for second edition, as he takes great pains to point out whenever the issue of canon status comes up. One of the points of having different editions is that there can be... differences. (The first edition canon of the RDF Sourcebook suggests that the 173rd wouldn't be in Africa to secure a refinery complex anyway, as it clearly states that there are multiple functioning refineries in the RDF AO. So I see no factual conflict between our 1e non-canon sourcebook and someone else's 2e material.) If we're going to go there, we may as well pick another country because of how second edition's East Europe Sourcebook handles Romania.

- C.

[Bulldog1972]

Oh, no, that was no accident. The ToC is hyperlinked deliberately.




My apologies! I didn't mean that it was hyperlinked accidentally. I DISCOVERED it accidentally. Clicked the mouse button while eating my breakfast, actually. Suddenly went to the page for one of the vehicles & I was surprised.

Extremely handy feature, thanks for adding that.

[Tegyrius]

Nah, I knew what you meant, but I entertain myself by abusing the language.

I will try to figure out how to add bookmarks to the PDF, though (and if I do, I'll go back and do the same in Pacific Northwest). That's a usability feature I do feel bad for not including.

- C.

[.45cultist]

One could always use a unit name that fell out of favor after the mutiny in Vietnam, The Americal Division. Now raise some units and plug into the TO&E.

[Tegyrius]

Individual referees are certainly free to change any detail of the setting to match their personal visions of the Twilight: 2000 universe or to better meet their tables’ needs. However, as this product’s creators, Raellus and I do not intend to rewrite it. We look forward to hearing about the stories people tell with the toolkit we’ve created.

- C.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Individual referees are certainly free to change any detail of the setting to match their personal visions of the Twilight: 2000 universe or to better meet their tables’ needs. However, as this product’s creators, Raellus and I do not intend to rewrite it. We look forward to hearing about the stories people tell with the toolkit we’ve created.

- C.

As with "Pacific Northwest", I find stuff for T2K and DC already!

[Raellus]

One of the main reasons we chose the 173rd Airborne for the Romania Sourcebook is that it aligned so well with the v1 timeline, assuming the unit was based in Italy, as it was IRL. Italy's rapidly souring relationship with NATO and Romania's declaring for NATO line up almost perfectly. If the 173rd is in Italy at the time (December, 1996), it makes temporal, spacial, and logistical sense for it to be sent there.

Second, we wanted an "elite-light" unit, nothing too big or hard to move via air (as Romania is landlocked), for the US contingent.

For Refs who'd rather not use the 173rd, for whatever reason, here are a few suggested alternatives. These are units that would likely be reactivated in the event of WWIII. AFAIK, none are mentioned in canon, but all existed, at one point or another, IRL.

36th Airborne Brigade
71st Airborne Brigade

Or, for Refs who want a slightly larger US presence in Romania, there's...

11th Airborne Division
13th Airborne Division

-

[Drgonzo2011]

Just picked this up yesterday and read through it in one sitting. Really wonderful addition to T2K. The section on the State Department was particularly interesting and might have to feature in my next campaign (set in Korea).

[Raellus]

Welcome, Drgonzo, and thank you! I think I can speak for Tegyrius in saying that we really appreciate it. If you're interested, I've also written a sourcebook for Korea (link in my sig).

-

[unipus]

Good of you guys to maintain composure in the face of withering -- if wildly ineffective -- enemy fire.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

As with "Pacific Northwest", I find stuff for T2K and DC already!

Excellent. Toolkit: functioning as designed.

Originally Posted by Raellus

We might be able to add that feature [Tegyrius edit: bookmarks] to a product update- one of the benefits of the PDF format (DriveThru automatically provides customers free updates if the product is modified).

I just checked and it is, in fact, bookmarked already. Looks like I had InDesign configured to automagically add every table of contents item as a bookmark too. So there ya go.

- C.