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#61
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Now that the East Africa sourcebook is official V2.2 canon with the update you can add the following officially to ships listed in Twilight 2000 canon - US, French and Kenyan
TF 212 - Kenya CG 50 Valley Forge, SH-60 F Seahawk (flagship) DDG 996 Chandler, SH-2F Seasprite DDG 46 Preble FF 1058 Meyerkord, SH-2F Seasprite FFG 9 Wadsworth DD 950 Richard S. Edwards FF 1064 Lockwood (harbor defense) TF 212.2 Patrol Group - Kenya USCGC WMEC 725 Jarvis PC 11 Whirlwind MCM 7 Patriot MHC 56 Kingfisher TF Stryker - Kenya LST-1190 Boulder (flagship) LST-1185 Schenectady LSD-32 Spiegel Grove Alexander Bonnyman (ex-BDK 14 Mukhtar Avezov) John Basilone (LCT-1037 Polnochny-B class) LCU 2031 New Orleans LCU 1619, 1643 (LCU 1610 class) LCM 6 – ten LCM 8 – six LCAC 90 TF 233 - Kenya AD 43 Cape Cod (flagship) T-A0 146 Kawishiwi AE 22 Mauna Kea AOE 7 Rainier AR 8 Jason YTB-820 Wanamassa T-ATF-172 Apache Solstar (Salvage Tug) Kenyan Navy - HQ Mombasa P3126 KNS Nyayo (Missile Boat) – six functional Otomat missiles P3127 KNS Umoja (Missile Boat) – missile system non-functional P3123 KNS Harambee (Missile Boat)- five functional Gabriel missiles L39 KNS Tana, L38 KNS Galana (Medium landing ships) Small River Patrol Boats P943-P947 French Indian Ocean Squadron Djibouti A631 Somme (Fleet HQ) A69 type Sloop F789 Lieutenant de vaisseau Le Hénaff LCM CTM24, CTM25 EDIC Landing Ship Sabre Reunion Frigate F730 Floreal, AS 565 Panther Frigate F732 Nivôse, AS565 Panther Austral Class Patrol Ship F681 Albatros BATRAL class Landing Ship L9034 La Grandiere Naval Oiler C1GH22 P400 class P690 La Rieuse Light Repair Ship A617 Garonne RV Marion Dufresne II, AS350 B3 Mayotte Patrol Boats P763, P790, P721 P400 class P683 La Boudeuse LCM CTM18 |
#62
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More evidence that modern naval vessels are vulnerable to fire.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...into-the-night This and other recent instances of accidents at sea resulting in sinking or extended time in dry dock, plus numerous stories about how submarines- especially 70s and 80s-vintage diesel boats- have "sunk" US and NATO aircraft carriers during exercises demonstrates, IMHO, that attrition in a full-scale, modern naval war would be extremely high- perhaps, as high as the canon authors wrote it.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#63
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Well that interesting, but stinking a carrier at sea during any exercise is a lot different that sinking one at sea. So is a fire in port where all your hatches are open and no one is battle stations and no damage control parties are ready for a fire. Maybe if I put wings on my grandmother she be a B-52?
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I will not hide. I will not be deterred nor will I be intimidated from my performing my duty, I am a Canadian Soldier. |
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Not constructive, not civil, rccaf_777. It's fine to disagree, but sarcasm and condescension are totally unnecessary (and contrary to our forum guidelines).
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 07-13-2020 at 05:29 PM. |
#65
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Just an aside -- was Bonhomme Richard active during the Twilight War? Anybody know enough about the ship to make up something off-the-cuff?
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I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons...First We Take Manhattan, Jennifer Warnes Entirely too much T2K stuff here: www.pmulcahy.com Last edited by pmulcahy11b; 07-13-2020 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Of all things to misspell, I chose Twilight... |
#66
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The national news reported this evening that the ship's fire suppression system was shut down for maintenance. I haven't heard or seen mention of winds in San Diego during the fire. Hypothetically, if she had happened to have been at sea when the fire broke out, it's entirely possible that winds (some generated by being under way) could have worsened the fire. In a wartime scenario, it's quite possible that a missile or torpedo hit, or mine impact, could have knocked out the ship's FSS, leading to fire damage similar to, or likely even worse, than what we're seeing in the headlines. In WW2, many allied ships were lost to fire when their fire fighting equipment was badly damaged or destroyed.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#67
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I would agree with her being active during the war possibly even part of what was sent to the Persian Gulf or to bring the Marines to Korea. If I remember right during WWII damage to fire fighting equipment was part of the reason for at least one carrier being lost possibly even several - ie they couldn’t fight the fires due to the damage
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#68
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Remember Raellus, exercises are just that. The real world is the real world. During my time in the US Army, all the exercises we had, we always lost at least 1-2 platoons of tanks assaulting a position, but when we deployed to the Gulf during Operation Desert Shield/Storm we didn't lose 1 tank.
After talking with my nephew, who severed about a carrier he told me that the attitude aboard the carrier during an exercise was just that "it's an exercise, it's not real." Whereas once they deployed to the Gulf war zone, the attitude aboard suddenly became "Oh, &&^&*, someone might actually try and shoot at us." |
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This thread does a great job of illuminating the always-interesting divide between fans who want to burn down aspects of canon they dislike and fans who want to find rational, internally-consistent explanations for them.
One item I don't believe I've seen discussed before, which came out of a side conversation elsewhere: how much of the Navy and Air Force sided with the Broward administration rather than Milgov? - C.
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Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson Last edited by Tegyrius; 07-14-2020 at 05:34 AM. |
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And some of the Navy definitely had to go with Civgov - after all they managed to transport three divisions to Yugoslavia and at least some support and supplies as well - which requires at least some kind of escort to do that - especially since the Italian and Greek navies most likely still had a few ships left that would have slaughtered unescorted transports |
#71
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The Italian and Greek navies weren't exactly formidible in the first place, and after several years of fighting Turkey and later Nato there's a pretty good change all they'd have left is a few sail powered fishing boats with machineguns. Might be a few larger vessels, but fuel, ammo and parts would be in short supply rendering sorties few and far between.
An old rustbucket destroyer in Civgovs hands might well be sufficient to keep them at bay long enough to land the troops plus following reinforcements and supplies, especially if Italian/Greek forces weren't being directly threatened.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#72
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Stilleto69, keep in mind that the Iragi military c1991 was not the Red Army c1986. Yes, they used a lot of similar equipment (although the Soviets usually didn't export their very best) and doctrine (much of which the Iraqi military misapplied), but to conclude that the US Army would have whipped the Red Army because Saddam got spanked is like arguing that North Vietnam would have beaten the United States in a total war because they whipped the US-equipped and trained ARVN in a limited one. This topic is dealt with extensively in this thread: https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....fense+Red+Army Quote:
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re CivGov naval resources, there must be a few, as canon has CivGov sending reinforcements to Yugoslavia relatively late in the war. I can't imagine that they'd send troop ships, un-escorted, across the Atlantic and into the hostile Mediterranean.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 07-14-2020 at 11:23 AM. |
#73
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Raellus, I think you might have misunderstood my point. What I was trying to say sometimes exercises can give a team/unit a false sense of reality. I.e. your point about the Iraqi Army, yes in hindsight we know all what happened, but when I was in the copula, commanding my tank, I could only envision them as the Soviet Army, because that's what I had been trained to fight (their equipment/doctrine/etc.)
But my main point about taking an assumption how things from exercises relate to the real world was like watching the Cleveland Browns beat the New England Patriots in a preseason game, and expecting the same result in the regular season. That was my point. Sorry if it missed you. ![]() |
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I feel like Desert Storm was the exception that proves this rule. The Coalition had been expecting a tough fight but a cakewalk (by comparison) ensued. They trained hard and were briefed to expect stiff resistance. In most cases, they faced little, if any. It was a best case scenario for the Coalition forces. The argument that I've been making for years is that the US military drew the wrong conclusion from Desert Storm: that Soviet equipment and doctrine were far inferior to their American counterparts, and that a hot war in Central Europe would have gone much better for NATO than the Cold War think tanks predicted.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 07-14-2020 at 07:33 PM. |
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The need to demonstrate perfection in front of a political audience can be the worst possible factor in exercise design. In the public safety world, we emphasize that the point of exercises is to make mistakes and find failure points in safe, controlled, simulated circumstances so you can eliminate those problems before you're called on to do the same thing for real. Every time I run an exercise, whether tabletop or full-scale, I emphasize in my opening briefing that I expect and want mistakes - if everything goes perfectly during play, the exercise itself is a failure. Based on discussions with law enforcement trainers with whom I've worked, as well as the few evolutions I've been fortunate enough to participate in, the same principles apply to force-on-force training in the LE world. - C.
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Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
#77
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Last edited by Olefin; 07-14-2020 at 11:10 PM. |
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My view on this has remained the same for decades.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#79
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It's worth bearing in mind that the Pact navies were virtually destroyed very early on in the war and there wasn't much left in the latter couple of years besides a few scattered commerce raiders. This isn't to say the NATO forces were must better off though.
Given the limited enemy naval forces, it's possible later war convoys could have risked the crossing without escort and probably have made it unscathed, perhaps even undetected nine out of ten times (or possibly better, who knows?). A single lightly armed and obsolete escort may have been deemed more than sufficient to protect ten, twenty or more civilian vessels - it's often all that was available in WWII during the height of the Battle of the Atlantic.... With regard to exercises and training, failure is often a far better teacher than success. Even after 25+ years I still remember those times which resulted in a "loss" for the good guys quite clearly, yet the "wins" all meld together. Provided an honest and open discussion/debrief is carried out, everyone involved learns something and improves their abilities. Consistently winning just plays on confirmation bias and doesn't make the participants actually think. However, consistently loosing does very little besides impact morale. Being "allowed" to win (when deserved) helps to cement good tactics and skills, and promotes critical thinking and imaginative problem solving.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
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Leg I know you want to go with the almost fully destroyed USN but the reality of the canon doesn’t show that. Most likely there are still a decent amount of ships left but they don’t have the fuel left or the weapons available to make them fully operational. For instance the USN and the Soviets still had the forces left that came to blows off the coast of Mexico that left only the Virginia still afloat albeit very heavily damaged pretty late in the war. And the US and Soviets still have the forces that are afloat and fully operational in the Caspian and Persian Gulf even in the spring of 2001.
Also keep in mind the fact that for a lot of modern ships if you don’t have missiles available that many of them are only armed with a single gun. That’s why older ships would be reactivated - more guns means they are actually worth the fuel to deploy them in a world where guns are now the main weapon as missiles run low on both sides. That’s why the Edwards is so effective off of Kenya - the USN had a lot of shells in stock and she is an all gun destroyer - and as such can still be fully effective and worth keeping operational whereas a more modern destroyer with only a single gun may not be Last edited by Olefin; 07-15-2020 at 08:27 AM. |
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Can you cite some evidence to back that claim up? Your reference to the USS Virginia for example - the battle mentioned in Satellite Down dates from March 1999 and as you say yourself left the sole surviving ship very heavily damaged (specifically it would have sunk within an hour if it hadn't been beached) so I don't follow how that can be used as an argument against a heavily damaged USN?
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom |
#82
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I don't think that anyone is arguing for an "almost fully destroyed" USN. However, the USN was the largest navy in the world when T2K was released, yet canon lists no more than a dozen extant, operational USN warships and submarines (of the latter, The Last, no less), c.2000. I don't recall if any are mentioned by name, but Going Home does state that the convoy will steam with a few escorts. Olefin, you've mentioned an Adventure module listing a ship or two off the west coast of the US in late 2000. So yes, there are operational USN warships in late 2000, but there are far, far fewer than there were at the beginning of the war.
Therefore, to reconcile canon, one must explain why so few warships survived a few years of high intensity naval warfare. My post of the Bonhomme Richard fire was attempting to take a step in that direction. Several posters have made some pretty outrageous claims on this forum over the years, regarding the capabilities of the USN. For example, on these very boards, I've read that CAG's are essentially invulnerable to air, submarine, and surface attacks, and that supercarriers can sustain multiple SSN or torpedo hits and remain operational. Neither of these particular arguments have any basis in fact. They're based entirely on theory and the claims of the defense industry and DOD (Consider the source. Of course, they're going to claim that the systems that they exchange for billions of dollars are extremely reliable and effective). These arguments ignore numerous historical examples of the vulnerability, unreliability, and fragility of modern warships and their weapon systems. Argument: Nothing could get through a carrier's Aegis AA screen. Evidence For: Defense industry and DOD claims. Result of simulations & exercises. Evidence Against: In 1987, an Aegis cruiser mistook an Iranian Airbus for an attack fighter and shot it down. Clearly, the system is not perfect. Arguments that Aegis will be able to detect, target, and hit every supersonic SSM swarming a CAG from multiple directions of attack is simply wishful thinking. Theory: A carrier can sustain multiple SSN hits and remain operational. Evidence For: ... Evidence Against: Look at photos of the HMS Sheffield, and the Atlantic Conveyor (comparable in size to a supercarrier). Each were hit and sunk by single Exocet SSMs. The USS Stark was hit by two (one of which failed to detonate) after failing to detect either missile. The damage almost sunk the frigate, and required extensive repairs. Furthermore, most contemporary and subsequent Soviet SSMs were faster, longer-legged and carried larger payloads than Exocet. Theory: A submarine couldn't sink a supercarrier with a torpedo. First of all, it couldn't get close enough to fire a torpedo. Second, even if hit, it could remain operational. Evidence For: ... Evidence Against: Allied submarines have repeatedly penetrated CAG ASW escort rings and launched successful torpedo attacks against carriers. It's extremely unlikely that every one of those successes was a fluke. As for torpedo damage, just watch SINKEX footage. Modern torpedoes are tremendously destructive. The HMS Conqueror sunk a US-built light cruiser, the General Belgrano, with two 21 inch Mk 8 mod 4 torpedoes (3 were launched; keep in mind that these weren't even the most modern torpedoes fielded by the RN at the time). I don't recall any warship surviving torpedo hits during the last decade or so of the Cold War. Theory: The Cold War Soviet Navy sucked. It would have stood no chance against the USN in a total war scenario. Evidence For: The sorry state of the Red Navy in the decade following the collapse of the USSR. War games. Evidence Against: This one is impossible to prove or disprove either way. However, based on the preceding arguments examined above, it would be Quixotic to believe that NATO navies, fighting the Soviets in/close to their own [USSR] territorial waters (as per Soviet Naval Doctrine) would have emerged anywhere near unscathed. Since the game-play focus of T2k is small unit land warfare, most of this theoretical parsing of naval strength c.2000 is moot anyway. But the evidence available suggests that full-scale naval warfare in 1990s would have been quite destructive.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 07-15-2020 at 12:34 PM. |
#83
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Umm, that's not what I said.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#84
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And that's only about 9 months into the war, and a month before nukes started to be used. Given ships need fairly regular replenishment, repair and replacement crew, and most ports (any any vessels caught in them) are destroyed or heavily damaged by nukes, it's not looking good for ANY naval forces by 2000. The argument for a strong, or even significant US navy simply doesn't hold water. Some ships certainly do still exist as can be seen in the middle east, but they're rendered nearly impotent by lack of fuel, ammunition, spare parts, etc.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#85
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USNAVCENT: The naval component, U.S. Naval Forces Central Command (USNAVCENT), controls the last American carrier task force in the world, Task Force 76. USNAVCENT's main duties include keeping the Persian Gulf open and free of hostile warships and providing a sealift capacity for the transfer of personnel and supplies within the region. <<All hard to do without fuel/ammo<< Also, if you don't want to sail around in big ships, you can always fly: 317th Tactical Airlift Wing HQ: Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 357th Tac Airlift Sdn (180 men, 4 C-130s, 2 C-23s): Al Qatif, Saudi Arabia 756th Tac Airlift Sdn (170 men, 3 C-130s, 2 C-23s): Bushehr 81st Weather Recon Sdn (150 men, 2 WC-130Hs): Ad Damman, Saudi Arabia 32nd Aerial Refuelling Sdn (160 men, 1 KC-10, 2 KC-130s): Ad Damman, Saudi Arabia <<They have KC-130 tankers, that haven't been canalized for C-130 parts... The Spice Must Flow! Although heavily damaged by nuclear and conventional at- tacks, a few of the oilfields and refineries in the Middle East still produce oil. Most is consumed locally, but a trickle is exported by the various nations who control the oilfields. This trade in oil is slowing, as attrition reduces the number of ships available. What remains is now mostly with nations of the Franco-Belgian Union. Military units receive fuel according to their individual mission requirements. Fuel is available on the open market (diesel: $7 per liter, C/C); gas: $12 per liter, S/S). Avgas is reserved for military use only, but can be had on the black market ($22 per liter, R/R). Last edited by Spartan-117; 07-15-2020 at 11:57 AM. |
#86
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#87
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And the ships in the Gulf and Kenya are fully operational - they just used the ones in the Gulf to land opposed at Char Bahar and are doing operational patrols in the Gulf and the IO. The RDF specifically refers to the USN ships there as the last operational carrier task force. |
#88
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That’s out of a US Navy that peaked at 594 vessels in 1987 according to Wikipedia. So we’re missing 569 vessels give or take a few. I just wanted to make sure that there was nothing in canon that I didn’t know about that accounted for at least some of that number given your earlier statement, but it appears that there isn’t, so the reality of canon doesn’t really support anything (one could argue that if anything it supports the opposite view as something like over 95 % of the US Navy’s strength is unaccounted for. That’s a pretty big number). That’s fine, it’s obviously up to each individual how they want to interpret what might have happened to those missing ships. FWIW I’d be inclined to agree with the view put forward by several people that there are still sufficient ships out there not specifically mentioned to carry out escort tasks and what not (I don't know who used the phrase “ramshackle destroyer” but it wasn't me), although again you need to pay attention to timing - FYI the Civgov reinforcement mission to Yugoslavia took place in probably 1998, maybe 1999 (there’s a likely discrepancy in the US Army Vehicle Guide - the 76th and 80th Divisions are quoted as deploying to Yugoslavia in October 1998, at which point they came under the command of IV Corps. Same source states the 42nd Division deployed in the autumn of 1999, together with IV Corps HQ. So unless IV Corps operated without its HQ for a year that’s probably a typo and the three Divisions deployed in October 1998. Having enough ships to provide an escort force in October 1998 doesn’t really prove anything one way or the other if you’re talking about Summer 2000 as your game point.
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom |
#89
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I am talking about 1998-1999 - that’s the Virginia battle, that’s the escort missions for the last MilGov and CivGov reinforcements to Europe and Korea, that’s the sailings for the convoys that brought the forces to Kenya that enabled the US to keep the refinery and port at Mombasa in operation. So they weren’t reduced to sending unescorted troopships for those ops. And earlier I posted the ships that are part of the forces based in Kenya which were based on Frank’s notes as well as my own imagining. They include a small patrol force, a naval task force centered on a missile cruiser and an amphib/support force that is there to provide support both for Kenya and for the forces in the Gulf.
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#90
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OK, so we're agreed that excepting Kenya, none of this proves anything one way or the other about the possible state of the US Navy in the summer of 2000 (and the Virginia battle isn't really relevant as none of those ships survived, so again if anything it only supports the worst case scenario, i.e. the existence of a ship or ships in service in 1999 is not proof that the same ships are still operational in 2000) and the actual reality of canon is that somewhere in the region of 569 vessels are unaccounted for?
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Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom |
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