Stepping backward.. Lower tech.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by Draq

This is the way of the apocalypse

I see your Cuban tinkers and shade tree mechanics, and raise you Colombian narco submarines.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

A massive technical college program also seems to need creation. The machinists and welders will need to expand their numbers.

FEMA would be in charge of this through the Executive Orders giving them this authority........... hampered by the muddy waters of the divided MilGov and CivGov situation.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Looking at the mount in this photo, It would be a relatively easy modification. The Hummer mount uses an easily manufactured central strut that mounts right up to the stock carriage mount on the trunion assembly. The recoil is "counter mitigated" by the gas shocks (Long travel 10-Ton gas shocks?) on either side of the mount. Why? Because they point almost perpendicular to the trunnion assembly at max elevation and "oppose" the trunion assembly when the weapon is at lower angles of elevation. This allows them to act as a "surrogate carriage" and reduce the recoil stroke to an acceptable level that the central strut (and the Hummer) can withstand. The gas shocks also "support" the weight of the assembly for ease of barrel elevation and traverse. This is an elegantly simple mount made possible by the short recoil trunion of the 82mm Vasilek mortar.

What kind of Twilight skills and tasks are we looking at?

[ArmySGT.]

[Draq]

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[kato13]

Originally Posted by Draq

None of the attachments are loading

Are you not seeing attachments or are you not able to upload attachments?

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

FEMA would be in charge of this through the Executive Orders giving them this authority........... hampered by the muddy waters of the divided MilGov and CivGov situation.

Thanks for understanding my mistake, "creation" instead of "created". What could a community and local forces do with high school, VoTech shops and staff? could it be the basis of a "Wojo" style factory? Combine this with a salvage yard and a fleet of technicals might be possible.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Thanks for understanding my mistake, "creation" instead of "created". What could a community and local forces do with high school, VoTech shops and staff? could it be the basis of a "Wojo" style factory? Combine this with a salvage yard and a fleet of technicals might be possible.

Sorry, I actually thought you meant at the macro scale...


My high school had x10 arc welders, x6 MIG welders, x3 Oxy/Ace welders, and a gas forge. In the shop side...... x6 10 inch lathes, one knee mill, one power hack saw, x2 metal cutting band saws, one metal shear, and one bending brake.

With absolutely no way to generate power. Totally dependent upon the electricity generated at the Bonneville dam.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Sorry, I actually thought you meant at the macro scale...


My high school had x10 arc welders, x6 MIG welders, x3 Oxy/Ace welders, and a gas forge. In the shop side...... x6 10 inch lathes, one knee mill, one power hack saw, x2 metal cutting band saws, one metal shear, and one bending brake.

With absolutely no way to generate power. Totally dependent upon the electricity generated at the Bonneville dam.

We now have 3 or 4 high schools, but I noticed the Missouri DOT vehicle facility had a generator the size of an Conex box next to its building. It is the yellow and black paint used on heavy equipment and easy to spot.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by kato13

Are you not seeing attachments or are you not able to upload attachments?

Not seeing, good sir

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Thanks for understanding my mistake, "creation" instead of "created". What could a community and local forces do with high school, VoTech shops and staff? could it be the basis of a "Wojo" style factory? Combine this with a salvage yard and a fleet of technicals might be possible.

From my point of view, such a core of tools and cadre of students and instructors, this would, at first, best be used as a Machine-tool-bulding set-up, to make more jigs, frames, etc., to allow more tools to be manufactured; a boot-strap sort of arrangement. Once enough drill-presses, lathes, milling machines were manufactured, a larger percentage of machine tool usage could be allotted to production of spare parts, remanufacturing firearms, trade goods, etc.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Thanks for understanding my mistake, "creation" instead of "created". What could a community and local forces do with high school, VoTech shops and staff? could it be the basis of a "Wojo" style factory? Combine this with a salvage yard and a fleet of technicals might be possible.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Sorry, I actually thought you meant at the macro scale...
My high school had x10 arc welders, x6 MIG welders, x3 Oxy/Ace welders, and a gas forge. In the shop side...... x6 10 inch lathes, one knee mill, one power hack saw, x2 metal cutting band saws, one metal shear, and one bending brake.
With absolutely no way to generate power. Totally dependent upon the electricity generated at the Bonneville dam.

Originally Posted by WallShadow

From my point of view, such a core of tools and cadre of students and instructors, this would, at first, best be used as a Machine-tool-bulding set-up, to make more jigs, frames, etc., to allow more tools to be manufactured; a boot-strap sort of arrangement. Once enough drill-presses, lathes, milling machines were manufactured, a larger percentage of machine tool usage could be allotted to production of spare parts, remanufacturing firearms, trade goods, etc.

All of this equipment belongs typically to the State, even the stuff in High School VoTech (Vocational Technology, for non-Americans). Since the U.S. has functioning governments to some degree, I think this would all be collected up and transported somewhere else for the Reconstruction.... or a if there was power available, put to work on the spot for Reconstruction projects.

But, this is serious thread drift. Maybe a Mod can clip it out and start an American Wojo Factory thread with it all?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Using the above video that ArmySGT provided, I can get a better idea of the mount's construction. First, let's talk materials needed for this project:

1) Two Large gas struts. I'd use 10-Ton LONG TRAVEL shocks (like the various military trucks in a number of armies use), but any large gas strut (like the ones used on the hatches of AFVs or aircraft ramps) will work.

2) High tensile steel to make the Uni-strut Assembly that bolts to the mortar's circular trunnion/carriage mounts. I'd use the girders from a modern multi-story building or a bridge deck strut. This will give you half of the structure without having to fabricate it.

3) High Tensile nuts and bolts. I'd cannibalize these from a bridge as well (you can also take them from a ship or transportable heavy crane).

4) One HIGH STRENGTH RING (with bearings and races) to mount to the truck bed. This would be a NIGHTMARE to have to fabricate (because of the precision fit of the bearings and races) so I would "cut" a complete turret ring out of a small AFV like a BRDM or the reinforced turret ring mounts found on some updated M113's. This ring would then be reinforced with a steel plate to mount the uni-strut to.

You would need:
-A welder
- power supply (for both the welder and tools)
-An Oxy-acetylene torch or a plasma cutter (and air compressor, of course)
-Powered hand tools such as grinders, die grinders, angle cutters, a belt sander and a large drill.
-hand tools to tighten the mounts bolts
-hydraulic's kit (found in a tracked vehicle mechanic's toolkit)
-prybars and pins for moving and setting large weights.

The strut would be a Routine (1.5 x Skill) Welding and Fabrication task taking about 8 hours (for a two man team).

The turret ring removal and plate installation would be an Easy (2 x Skill) Welding and Fabrication Skill and also take 8 hours (for two men). You can halve the time by doubling the laborers on this task (it involves a lot of heavy lifting).

Manufacturing a ring base from scratch would be a Difficult (0.5 x Skill) Welding and Fabrication AS WELL AS a Difficult (0.5 x Skill) Machining Skill. and take two men about 24 hours to properly fabricate.

All of this can be done "in the field," IF you have the resources.

[rcaf_777]

I know we talk about heavy weapons and APC/IFV but what about small arms?

Here is a website about Post WWII Commercially Manufactured M1 Carbines

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbines.html

I had no idea they were still being produced or after the war so many number were produced

A few examples

From 1962 to 1978, the PLAINFIELD MACHINE CO., INC. of Middlesex, New Jersey made about 112,000. The Iver Johnson Arms Company bought the Company in 1978 and made another 92,000 until 1992.

I always wonder why the weapon was in NATO weapons book.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I know we talk about heavy weapons and APC/IFV but what about small arms?

Here is a website about Post WWII Commercially Manufactured M1 Carbines

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbines.html

I had no idea they were still being produced or after the war so many number were produced

A few examples

From 1962 to 1978, the PLAINFIELD MACHINE CO., INC. of Middlesex, New Jersey made about 112,000. The Iver Johnson Arms Company bought the Company in 1978 and made another 92,000 until 1992.

I always wonder why the weapon was in NATO weapons book.

Kahr Arms bought out Auto Ordinance and makes both the M1 Carbine AND semi-auto Thompson submachine guns (more properly carbines? in semi-auto?). It is popular to make the 16" barreled Thompson into an NFA SBR since a good quality full-auto can command $50K in the US.
Inland also makes the M1 Carbine as well. The popularity of WW2 reenacting has driven the market for the last 20 years or so.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I've seen references in some gun magazines to the semi-auto Thompsons as carbines regardless of barrel length. I think it's a safe enough label to apply to the semi-auto versions.
I have a vague recollection that during the 1950s to about the 1980s the M1 Carbine was reasonably popular as a hunting gun for light-medium game.

[bobcat]

well for small arms if you need a cheap and easy shotgun you can't get any more simplistic than the Cobray Terminator. decent enough for hunting small game but there is a reason it beats the street sweeper in the worlds worst shogun category.

Video Review

[ArmySGT.]

Why not coindicence range finder? A watch maker and optician can make the lenses and small gears.



Or the donkey ears style trench binoculars/rangefinders.


No batteries required.

Note, that in the case of T2K several Warsaw Pact countries were fielding these still as regular equipment in active units at the start of the conflict.

It is NATO that went the more high tech (and efficient) route that is suffering with the collapse of economy and industry.

[rcaf_777]

You can also add

The Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 and Mk 2, although production has ceased it off shoots are still going strong and it is still issued to some para military units like the Canadian Rangers. With an estimated 17 million rifles made in six countries, this rifle is second to only the Mosin–Nagant in terms numbers produced and length of service. The models still in service are:

Ishapore 2A1 rifle, a converted rifle which fires 7.62mm NATO round. They are still being made in India.

L42A1 Sniper Rifle, another conversion like the Ishapore 2A1, used by the British Army in frontline service till the early 90’s

Lee Enfield Envoy, conversation of Lee-Enfield No. 4 Mk 2 in a sport version firing 7.62mm

Enfield Enforcer, Same as the Envoy but used by the UK Metropolitan Police, not common place but still possible is used by a small police detachment in the UK around twilight.

De Lisle Commando carbine, both Valkyrie Arms and Special Interest Arms make replica of this rifle.

Mosin–Nagant is the most produced rifle in history and the longest continuously serving rifle in history, at more than 120 years. Only the British Brown Bess Musket (1720-1865) has been in service longer. As the Soviet Union grew into a world power it gave away tens of thousands of these weapons to anyone claiming to be a communist fighting the evil capitalist of the west.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'd like to point out that the Ishapore 2A rifles are conversions of the design but the rifles themselves are new builds and are not conversions of .303 Lee Enfields to 7.62x51mm.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I'd like to point out that the Ishapore 2A rifles are conversions of the design but the rifles themselves are new builds and are not conversions of .303 Lee Enfields to 7.62x51mm.

Beat me to it..... An Ishapore is also derived from the No 3.

I own one. It is fun to shoot. Course, some old Fudd at the range will either complain about my military rifle or that I should shoot American ammo.

Ishapores were manufactured at the Ishapore plant wherein Lee Enfields were made for colonial units. When India was making the transition to 7.62 NATO FALs ......... there weren't enough to go around.... These were intended for Border, Police, and Militia units in India's mixed up crazy quilt of internal States and Territories.

forgot to add....... the No8 is the conversion of .303s to 7.62NATO

[James Langham2]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

Beat me to it..... An Ishapore is also derived from the No 3.

I own one. It is fun to shoot. Course, some old Fudd at the range will either complain about my military rifle or that I should shoot American ammo.

Ishapores were manufactured at the Ishapore plant wherein Lee Enfields were made for colonial units. When India was making the transition to 7.62 NATO FALs ......... there weren't enough to go around.... These were intended for Border, Police, and Militia units in India's mixed up crazy quilt of internal States and Territories.

forgot to add....... the No8 is the conversion of .303s to 7.62NATO

No8 in UK service is usually a similar weapon but in .22 for training use.Very common in cadet units at the time but rarer in TA and regular unirs who had access to HK conversion kits for the SA80. They are JUST about to leave service.

[ArmySGT.]

Originally Posted by James Langham2

No8 in UK service is usually a similar weapon but in .22 for training use.Very common in cadet units at the time but rarer in TA and regular unirs who had access to HK conversion kits for the SA80. They are JUST about to leave service.

Sorry... it is L8.... not No8

[unkated]

It is not exactly pertinent to this topic as a whole, but....

Can someone tell me what the L in British kit designations since WW2 stands for?

Much of the world uses 'M' (boringly) for Model (in various European languages), but Britain started using L - anyone know why?

Uncle Ted

[RN7]

Originally Posted by unkated

It is not exactly pertinent to this topic as a whole, but....

Can someone tell me what the L in British kit designations since WW2 stands for?

Much of the world uses 'M' (boringly) for Model (in various European languages), but Britain started using L - anyone know why?

Uncle Ted

I believe the L designation in British Army weapons stands for Land Service and started to be used in the 1950's.

British Royal Navy weapons systems are designated by N and stand for Naval Service. Canada also uses C for Canadian, and the Australians use F for Forces.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Now I can't say for certain what the letters actually stand for but I can add that from what I remember they were jointly decided upon by Australia, Canada, the UK & the USA (essentially, all the major English-speaking allies) as part of a unified designation system to readily distinguish and also identify the origin of allied equipment.

It certainly could prove interesting at times as for example, in Australia at one point we were using the M60 machinegun on the L3 tripod with a C2 sight for indirect fire while using F4 ammunition.
And it's exactly the reason why our SLRs were called L1A1, because it was initially a British design (as in, it's a semi-auto only variant of the FAL) but our shortened SLRs (designed for the PNG military) were designated L1A1-F1

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by ArmySGT.

All of this equipment belongs typically to the State, even the stuff in High School VoTech (Vocational Technology, for non-Americans). Since the U.S. has functioning governments to some degree, I think this would all be collected up and transported somewhere else for the Reconstruction.... or a if there was power available, put to work on the spot for Reconstruction projects.

But, this is serious thread drift. Maybe a Mod can clip it out and start an American Wojo Factory thread with it all?

Factories, one for each region would minimize the dangers of transport and alieve worries that region X is being slighted for region Y.