1st US Army / XII Corps

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I know...The west coast would of went to the 40th and the gulf coast to the 49th. East Coast would of been up for grabs...

[Rainbow Six]

I guess you could make a case for any recovered armour on the south east coast ending up at Fort Benning with the CivGov units based there (or maybe Fort Bragg)? Still think anything found on the north east coast from spring 1999 onwards would have stayed in the north east though.

Just out of interest, in a V1 timeline was there anywhere in CONUS the US Army would have sent any armour that had been damaged in Europe or elsewhere but could be shipped back to be repaired?

[HorseSoldier]

In the post-nuclear chaos and displacement, I'd think that just about anybody who could grab control of port facilities or interdict rail lines might end up in possession of some armor. This could include MilGov or CivGov units who diverted stuff headed for the front because they felt they needed them more, New America enclaves, local warlords or communities, or even Mexican/Division Cuba forces who overran ports in southern California and Texas. I doubt there was all that much stuff laying around to begin with after almost a year of high intensity conflict in multiple theaters, but it could turn up most anywhere in most anyone's hands by 2000. (Access to a good deal of military kit might help explain why the Warlord of Memphis seems to have been such a pain in the ass for MilGov, for instance.)

As far as armor repair/refurbishing, Anniston Army Depot in Alabama does rebuilds on M1s and assorted other AFVs in real life. I don't know if they were the only facility set up to do that work in the Cold War era. I'd think doing even extensive repair work in theater would make better logistical sense than shipping damaged tanks back CONUS and then back over to Europe or where ever in a WW3 scenario where sealift and airlift have to have been badly stressed.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

As far as armor repair/refurbishing, Anniston Army Depot in Alabama does rebuilds on M1s and assorted other AFVs in real life.

Red River Army Depot near Texarkana used to do that, I believe into the late 1990s. They employed a lot of people in Texarkana.

[Legbreaker]

I agree that come late 1997 (post nukes) any vehicles in a theatre are likely to stay in theatre. It would have to be fairly common knowledge that the situation back home is terrible and that any damaged vehicles sent back are either not coming back, or will simply sit there unrepaired.
The flow of replacement vehicles and parts would also have dried up so keeping what a unit has, no matter what it's condition, would be very important. They many not be repairable by the unit, but they still represent a valuable source of spares.

[pmulcahy11b]

So that's why the stocks of vehicles go down so drastically. It's not just that so many have been destroyed, it's that there are so few that still work. Some relatively stationary units may actually maintain "junkyards" for spare parts.

[Legbreaker]

I'd imagine that even the more mobile units would try and take as much with them as they could. Heavily damaged vehicles would be stripped down to the last nut and bolt, nothing but the twisted chassis left behind. A bunch of spare parts is usually easier to carry (and quicker to get hold of what's needed) than a hulking great wreck.

[HorseSoldier]

Red River Army Depot near Texarkana used to do that

Forgot about them -- the first Bradley I was on had a data plate showing it upgraded from M3A0 to A1 standard at Red River.

If the refurbish/repair lines CONUS weren't doing a lot of work on repairing battle damaged stuff from OCONUS (which, even pre-nuke, I think is kind of a long shot), they might be hubs for semi-official or even standardized mods to existing vehicles like the "Stingray Juniors" and such.

So that's why the stocks of vehicles go down so drastically. It's not just that so many have been destroyed, it's that there are so few that still work. Some relatively stationary units may actually maintain "junkyards" for spare parts.

Yeah -- without a functional logistics tail stretching back to a functional nation state keeping just about any system with any complexity to it running is going to require regular miracles on demand from mechanics and other support troops. Cannibalizing anything that isn't functioning anymore is going to definitely be a big part of that -- some stuff just isn't going to be reproducable to standard by a machinist, however skilled, without access to facilities above and beyond that organic to division/corps/army level maintenance units.

This would be a much bigger headache for aviation units than ground vehicles, since it's much easier for a parts failure to be much more catastrophic, and probably plays an equal role to combat attrition and fuel scarcity in the general clearing of European skies by 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

I'd think doing even extensive repair work in theater would make better logistical sense than shipping damaged tanks back CONUS and then back over to Europe or where ever in a WW3 scenario where sealift and airlift have to have been badly stressed.

Good point...it was just a passing thought I had, but thinking some more about it what you say sounds much more logical...

[Abbott Shaull]

There are suppose to be Maintenance units that are able to carry out these types of repairs in the rear of the theater of operation. It just cheaper to outsource such repairs during peace time. In fact, many of these employees would be used to bring such designated units up to speed while the shops back home would update vehicle before they were to deployed overseas.

[Webstral]

The idea of civilians doing some of this work overseas leads to some interesting character generation possibilities. Some of these folks could find themselves drafted into forward support units in 1998 and beyond.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The idea of civilians doing some of this work overseas leads to some interesting character generation possibilities. Some of these folks could find themselves drafted into forward support units in 1998 and beyond.

Webstral

Which brings up contractors such as Blackwater/Xi. They might be potential great assets, but possibly also uncontrollable since they aren't used to having to follow military rules. Do you really want these people in your unit?

[Abbott Shaull]

Another source of armed thugs/marauders depending on your perspective of things...

[Abbott Shaull]

Actually let's face it, many of the Heavy Support and Maintenance units at Theater level would have these civilians due to the fact that the military didn't keep people with their skill set in, and if they were in, there are too few for all the of the Theaters of operations that open up.

[Legbreaker]

Give it a few years of warfare though and you could find anyone virtually anywhere. A clerk for example originally assigned to process salary payments may well find themselves on the workshop floor, as skilled and as efficient as any mechanic. (Hands on training)

[Abbott Shaull]

Try but with the time line of V1 game. Many of these in Theater service centers would only have started to trained the people in Uniform to a point where many of them could be sent back to States when things feel apart.

Granted even the in Rifle Companies, the people such as the supply specialist and others who aren't normally 'trigger pullers' will have many more than cup filled and then some...

[kalos72]

So basically an Army/Corps is just a larger collection of units with more assets to support those units correct?

How would an Army/Corp work in a T2k world? I cant see them doing much more then giving orders at this point anyway...

[Abbott Shaull]

Most of these level of commands on both sides are collapsing and being absorbed by the Division/Brigade that was in the area.....

[kalos72]

I would agree...it appears now more so about location then actual supporting units.

[Abbott Shaull]

Well GDW kinda overlooked the fact that Corps and Armies are made up several independent Companies/Troop/Batteries, Battalions/Squadron, and Brigade/Regiments. I am sure they would be several of these units even if they are almost none existent compared to pre-war TO&E still mugging around the areas too.

[HorseSoldier]

I agree -- I can see Corps or higher assets that are no longer relevant being disbanded completely, or retasked (like ADA units in Europe), but some of those units will still retain valid missions or be easily converted to do tasks that are still valuable circa 2000 (like Corps/Army engineer units).

Plus those units have a whole mess of personnel attached. GDW sort of missed out on some interesting possibilities by streamlining their presentation of higher headquarters elements as either nothing but a headquarters or at best a vague mention in the published orders of battle.

[Abbott Shaull]

Yeah I know that Armies and Corps HQ have several Brigades, Battalions, and Companies assigned. In many cases, the Corps HQ and Armies HQ with these units are as large or much larger than a cookie cutter Armor/Mechanized Division depending on the mission of the Corps or Army.

Take Fort Bragg as example, they Special Operation Army Command, the 82nd Airborne Division, and the XVIII Airborne Corps. In theory the 82nd Airborne Division is integrated unit on base. Yet, with the XVIII Airborne Corps there are several Brigade of various mean (Aviation, Artillery, ADA, MP, Support, Engineer, and others) some are attached to the Corps directly (deploy with the Corps), or indirectly (they can deploy independent of the Corps such as some of the MP and Engineer Brigades). In some cases the Support units assigned to the Corps would deployed in direct support of the 82nd or other units of the Corps too. Then there was the Special Operation Command that again had training course unit and there were couple Special Operations Groups assigned to the post too.

I am sure Fort Hood and Fort Lewis would be a couple bases that were over populated with support for the Corps at those bases, which explains why it was easier on paper for the Divisions at those bases to have round-out units or in the case of 2nd Armor Division while assigned to Fort Hood with the 1st Cavalry to have one Brigade Forward Deployment to Germany to make 'room' for other units. After Desert Shield/Storm there was large reorganization and with base closure many of these bases that were consider too small, suddenly had to find room for other units. It also helped that in the process several other units were deactivated and things were reorganized in the process too.

[Dog 6]

Originally Posted by Dog 6

My 1st ARMY as of 6/1/2003


1ST ARMY HQ: 1800 men Atlanta

3rd Infantry Regiment: 600 men , 37 M-2A2, 4 IPM1 , 4 105 mm How. D.C.

1st Aviation Brigade: 3000 men 28 UH-1, 2 CH-54, 8 UH-60 , 16 OH-58, 7 AH-1 , 11 CH-47, 4 OH 6 Units can be found all over the East cost




12th Corp HQ: 1900 men 1 M-60A3 Trenton

12th Engineer Brigade : 1200 men 3 M-728 CEV Fort Dix

12th supply Brigade : 3800 men Trenton units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Transportation Brigade: 3000 men, 600 Trucks , 190 Tankers units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O.

12th Artillery Brigade: 2600 men, 43 105 mm How. 14 155 mm How.
units can be found all over 12th Corp A.O. HQ 200 men in Trenton

43rd MP Brigade: 2000 men 22 M-113, 8 105 mm How, 21 Peacekeeper, 19 LAV 150 Massachusetts

78th Reserve Infantry Division: 4200 men, 6 M-48A5's, 15 M-113's, 22 105 mm How. Fort Dix

42nd Mechanized Division : 6000 men, 81 M-60A4 , 145 M-113, 31 M-109 New York

190th Mechanized Brigade: 3000 men 33 M-60A3, 129 M-113 , 17 M-109 , 22 M901 Maine

2nd provisional Marine Regiment : 900 men Toms River

13th Corps HQ : 2900 men 1 IPM-1 Atlanta

13th Engineer Brigade : 4000 men 1 M-728 CEV
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th supply Brigade: 5000 men Atlanta

13th Transportation Brigade: 4200 men 900 Trucks , 290 Tankers
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

13th MP Brigade: 3900 men 9 Peacekeeper, 31 M-706, 42 M750 units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O. HQ 300 men in Atlanta

13th Artillery Brigade: 3100 men 31 105 mm How, 41 155mm How
units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

108th Reserve Infantry Division: 5500 men, 18 M-48A5, 33 M-113, 44 105 mm How HQ Savannah units can be found all over 13th Corp A.O.

18th Motorized Infantry Division: 9000 men, 152 M-8, 337 LAV 25, 57 155 mm How, 4 LARS Florida

198th Mechanized Brigade: 3500 men 190 APC/IFV , 49 tanks (M-48A5/ M-60A3/4/5, M-1A1/2) 21 M-109, 8 M901 Fort Benning

5th provisional Marine Regiment :1700 men , 3 M-60A1 Savannah


enjoy

I need to update this with Airforce and navy units

positive thoughts are welcome.