British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

FN USA has built a version of the M240, which I believe is in limited issue now, which has a good portion of the steel parts replaced by lighter titanium. It's on my pages, and it's a lot lighter than a standard M240.

Paul,

In addition, I believe improved components from the Canadian C6 GPMG (licence-built MAG-58) were used to upgrade US-made M240s to extend their service life prior to introducing titanium parts.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

As most probably know, I carried the M60 during most of my service. I carried it more like a rifle, a hand on the pistolgrip and the other on the forestock - the carry handle was used only in non-tactical situations.

One of the other machinegunners in my plattoon went so far on one exercise as to remove the bipod completely from the weapon. Although this obviously reduced accuracy and stability for longer ranges, he was certainly strong enough to manage it (built like an ox!). The spare barrel retained the bipod though enabling longer ranged fire after a quick change (he had an excellent No2 so this only took a few moments - sooo jealous!)
It had the advantage that in poor light conditions, it was often mistaken as a rifle and so the "enemy" paid less attention to him than they would have otherwise (machineguns are prime targets to take out as are grenadiers and commanders).

[HorseSoldier]

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

For most anything else, though, I'll take a 240 over a 60 every time.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

HS,

A GPMG can't be good at everything, I guess that's why they have SAWs!

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

Unrelated to T2K L85s, but I see the in real life the MoD is switching over to MagPul E-Mags. If the HK mags supplied for the L85A2 are anything like the ones we got issued a few years back that'll be a huge improvement, both in terms of weight and durability.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by HorseSoldier

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

For most anything else, though, I'll take a 240 over a 60 every time.

Personally I believe that the MAG58 is superior in almost all respects to the M60 but the M60 is easier to carry and wield. As for the PK, I've found it has similar carry characteristics as the MAG58 but worse for me, having been trained on left-hand feed MGs (M60, MAG58, L3A3) the right-hand feed of the PK is a bit difficult to get used to

[Ironside]

Sorry to be such a time before posting my second draft; real life getting in the way. As far as I can determine by the mid 1980s the 25pdr was for cermonial use only. With great regret, I've left them out. As always any and all comments and criticisms welcome.

British Army Equipment During the Later Twilight War

The British Army has never been a particularly visible part of British society, outside of garrison towns, except during a major war; so many minor wars and actions have taken place that there is no authoritative list of them. During ‘peacetime’, e.g. when military actions and casualties are not front page news, equipment for the army is not a priority. The British Army has learned therefore to avoid throwing anything away if they can possibly help it. Obsolete or surplus equipment can be found squirreled away in obscure stores and depots which proved a great boon to the British Army during the Twilight War.

Artillery is a huge consumer of ammunition; no commander in modern history has ever had enough smoke for instance. When the 155mm ammunition began to run short old 5.5” guns were taken from storage and the School of Artillery Trials Unit to make use of the large stocks of 5.5” ammunition remaining in storage. The 51mm mortar L10 was designed from the outset to be able to use the extensive stocks of 2 inch mortar ammunition still in store.

Although MBTs became rarer on the battlefield, anti-tank capability was still most important. As the supply of MILAN missiles dwindled the BAT Wombat L6 returned to the fray. Likewise, instead of the LAW 80, the 84mm ‘Carl Gustav’ was brought back into service; to the severe disgruntlement of those tasked with carrying it’s 14.2kg empty weight!

The armoured units would have been in direr straits without the Chieftains of the war reserve; some of them with the Chieftain/Challenger Rearmament programme, some without. As the Integrated Fire Control System of the Chieftains wore out or failed, the old L21A1 Ranging Machine Guns were replaced in turrets originally designed for them, making such tanks great assets. Even the remaining 1950’s vintage Saracen and Saladin armoured cars were used to great effect.

In the field of small arms, the L85 was supplemented by the L1A1 Self Loading Rifle and the L86 by the L4A4 Bren gun to the great joy of many, as the post Gulf War Fault Rectification Program had not nearly been completed by the start of the Twilight War.

Even the webbing equipment of the late war British soldier benefited from the institutional hoarding tendency of the British Army. Modern webbing was almost replaced by ’58, ’44 and even ’37 pattern webbing by war’s end. The previously loathed Boot DMS that let down the British so badly in the Falklands was welcomed as much better than no boot at all, when no more Boots, High Combat were to be had. The steel helmet Mk V had never been completely replaced by the GRP helmet, some Home Service Force personnel were issued with them during the Russo – Chinese phase of the Twilight War. Subsequently the Mk V helmet became a much more common sight. Contrary to popular belief, the WWII style Mk II helmets seen in England were not WWII vintage, but were manufactured in Oxford* from original dies discovered in a Regimental Museum basement!

I’ll be adding soft-skin vehicles next; I’m waiting for a reference book to arrive.


*I’m not following canon for the British Isle, I much prefer Rainbow Six’s take on it. I hope he doesn’t mind.

Ironside

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Fair enough although the material for the HAC indicated that it last used the 25-pdr (besides ceremonial duties) on a field exercise on Salisbury Plain in 1992

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Ironside

*I’m not following canon for the British Isle, I much prefer Rainbow Six’s take on it. I hope he doesn’t mind.

Ironside

Ironside, I don't mind at all. Feel free to use any parts of my material that you like - that's what it's there for and I'm glad you like it and that it's being used.

(Just as an FYI I am working on an updated version of my timeline at the moment - there aren't any major changes (it's more by way of tidying up a few bits I wasn't entirely happy about in the original), although HMG presence in the north east has ended up weaker - basically Catterick remains in Government hands but the troops have had to withdraw from Newcastle, Sunderland, etc. I'm also working on the US presence in East Anglia, which was probably the weakest part of the original material.)

Re: the 25 pounders, I would say that if you do want to include them it's probably not stretching credibility too far to suggest that there might have been a small number in storage at Larkhill?

Cheers

Dave

[Ironside]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

Fair enough although the material for the HAC indicated that it last used the 25-pdr (besides ceremonial duties) on a field exercise on Salisbury Plain in 1992

Ah, I didn't know that. I still wonder about the ammunition supply for wartime use though. Any thoughts?

@ Rainbow Six I am working on something for East Anglia as it's where I live. I do think that the Gipping/Stour estuary would be targetted during the anti-infrastructure nuclear exchange. As the port of Felixtowe became the UK's largest container port in 1980 (3rd largest in Europe) and with the port of Harwich on the other side of a quite narrow gap I think it would be an obvious target.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts re the 25 pounders is that they are likely to have been brought back into use, those that still exist in working order anyway.
There may not be a lot of prewar 25 pdr ammo laying about, but that's far simplier to produce than whole new 105mm guns.

[Ironside]

I do agree with you Legbreaker that 25pdr ammunition is simpler to manufacture, and I would like to see the 25pdrs back in action. That does brings up a question I have wondered a lot about. How much ammunition is being manufactured? Particularly artillery ammunition.

[Legbreaker]

Well, HE and a number of other types of ammo were being produced a hundred years ago in what we today term as extremely primative factories so I imagine that provided the materials are available, and the knowledge, tools and manpower necessary, it should be feasible to turn out a usable quantity of shells in Organised areas.

The earlier, simplier weapons probably have the advantage over modern weapons with their high tech ammo too in that all a gun really needs (whether it be a .22 right up to monster artillery piece) is a projectile of some type and a charge to push it. As already stated in this thread, there's almost certainly been a return to early 20th century anti-tank weapons like the 6 pdr gun. I don't know that recoiless weapons would be as widespread though due to the increased complexity of the round.

Unguided rockets would be useful weapons too for artillery purposes. Precision goes out the window of course, but if all the gun tubes are worn out, it's better than throwing rocks....

[LBraden]

I keep seeing a lot of "oh this in storage" well, what about world war II

"They are making these new fighters in every piano factory and garden shed in the country" -- quote from Goering, and realistically, if the "Excrement has hit the oscillating device", YES the British have the ability to do that. so no matter how old or bad the equipment is, we will pull it, and even now, I can assure you that a lot of the people will do that, or become marauders and will quickly find the wrong end of "country justice".

So really, after "Damn it, no more tea" day, the UK will radically change, but I can say with both knowledge of late 80's and current day (if following 2013), realistically, the UK could rebuild something of a cottage industry of munitions.

[Legbreaker]

The problem I see is that in the early 20th century there were a lot more people employed in manual jobs. In the latter decade or two of the century (and even more so now) technology and automation has taken over.
This lack of hands on experience could cause a few issues once the power is no longer supplied and all the computer driven machinery has taken EMP damage.
It's by no means a deal breaker, but I can see significant delays in retooling compared to those that may have been faced a hundred years earlier.

[pmulcahy11b]

I might also point out that both US and Soviet industry were barely able to produce a tinker's dam until World War 2 broke out. The US became an industrial powerhouse and a superpower in World War 2. Prior to TDM, factories left and right would be taken over by the need to produce war items, like Singer sewing machines were producing small arms during World War 2. The limiting factor would be the greater complexity of today's weapons. Those taken-over factories might still be producing war goods after TDM, particularly the smaller ones.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Ironside

I am working on something for East Anglia as it's where I live. I do think that the Gipping/Stour estuary would be targetted during the anti-infrastructure nuclear exchange. As the port of Felixtowe became the UK's largest container port in 1980 (3rd largest in Europe) and with the port of Harwich on the other side of a quite narrow gap I think it would be an obvious target.

Will look forward to seeing what you come up with...you just can't beat local knowledge...

Looking at the map Felixstowe and Harwich do certainly seem to be fairly obvious targets, particularly when you consider that Dover and Folkestone both got hit. Generally I've always tried to leave the canon nuclear strikes as they were listed in the Survivor's Guide to the UK, although a number of what would seem to be obvious targets were missed (e.g. Portsmouth, Plymouth, Faslane).

One could argue that perhaps a single missile was intended to take out Felixstowe and Harwich (given their proximity that would seem to be possible) and it missed, landing in the north sea instead? Alternatively perhaps targets that were missed out were plastered by conventional attack earlier in the War, so deemed not worth nuking (yes, admittedly unlikely!).

Cheers

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

The problem I see is that in the early 20th century there were a lot more people employed in manual jobs. In the latter decade or two of the century (and even more so now) technology and automation has taken over.
This lack of hands on experience could cause a few issues once the power is no longer supplied and all the computer driven machinery has taken EMP damage.
It's by no means a deal breaker, but I can see significant delays in retooling compared to those that may have been faced a hundred years earlier.

Leg, totally agree with you here.

[HorseSoldier]

I also agree -- post-industrial economies have gotten so efficient at the manufacturing that does occur (as well as agriculture) that most people are employed in fields that simply don't provide helpful skills if you roll the technology base back to 1900 (or earlier). There is, of course, the possibility of retraining people, but in T2K the big choke point is keeping them alive and organized at all after the TDM and subsequent winter eradicates food distribution networks.

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I might also point out that both US and Soviet industry were barely able to produce a tinker's dam until World War 2 broke out. The US became an industrial powerhouse and a superpower in World War 2. Prior to TDM, factories left and right would be taken over by the need to produce war items, like Singer sewing machines were producing small arms during World War 2. The limiting factor would be the greater complexity of today's weapons. Those taken-over factories might still be producing war goods after TDM, particularly the smaller ones.

Paul,

This is an important point. Most small arms and much in the way of munitions up to a point can be produced in what are essentially basement shops. Factories are more needed for bulk production in wartime. Given the right materials, enough in the way of weapons and explosives (including for artillery) can be supplied to fuel a "low-intensity" conflict.

Tony

[Ironside]

@ Rainbow Six

I have to say that I assumed that the nuclear strike map in Survivors Guide UK like other target maps only showed sites that had hits by 0.5 Mt or greater. This would explain some fairly obvious missed targets. I thought that Felixtowe/Harwich port could be destroyed by a sub-Hiroshima sized warhead of ~5kt

@LBraden

I must confess that I haven't got around yet to thinking about manufacturing and Legbreaker makes very valid points. The point I wanted to make was that as the British army has never been generously supplied it tends not to throw anything away.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Ironside

I have to say that I assumed that the nuclear strike map in Survivors Guide UK like other target maps only showed sites that had hits by 0.5 Mt or greater. This would explain some fairly obvious missed targets. I thought that Felixtowe/Harwich port could be destroyed by a sub-Hiroshima sized warhead of ~5kt

That is quite possible (the target maps only showing .5Mt or greater targets has come up before, either on the forum or its predecessor, and has been generally accepted as a reason for "missing" targets).

However, referring to the SGUK, the section on Anglia specifically states that the region escaped nuclear attack in the 1997 exchanges. Reason given for this was that the region was a farming area with no heavy industry therefore there were no viable targets. So this spares not only Felixstowe / Harwich, but also the host of RAF and USAF airbases in Norfolk and Suffolk (to be fair it makes no mention one way or the other of the 1998 exchanges so one or both may have been hit then).

To be honest, I've stated on more than one occasion that I have always found the SGUK to be a disappointment, and that's why I chose to write my own alternative timeline. Whilst that timeline obviously deviates from the canon established by the SGUK in several ways, as I said earlier changing the canon nuclear strikes was one area that I didn't get into for a couple of reasons.

However you've given me good reason to think again about Felixstowe and Harwich with regard to how I deal with East Anglia in my own material, and as I said, I'd be very interested in what you come up with...

Cheers

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

That is quite possible (the target maps only showing .5Mt or greater targets has come up before, either on the forum or its predecessor, and has been generally accepted as a reason for "missing" targets).

R6,

I wasn't privy to those prior discussions but it makes sense.

Although, one thing to keep in mind is in the canon target list many governmental, military and civilian targets were spared because the warring nations (primarily USA and USSR) wanted to avoid sparking a general thermonuclear war. Mainly industrial and particularly power and fuel infrastructure was targeted. So maybe at least some of those "missing" targets were deliberately skipped.

Tony

[LBraden]

Aye, but under the "canon" T2K British source book (not sure which one I have) it basically states that where I currently live in Castleford is, shall we say, FRAKKED, thanks to the quaint situation of the targets and wind direction, the red dot is Castleford, strategically unimportant in the 80's thanks to Thatcher closing down the pits.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castleford

[helbent4]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Aye, but under the "canon" T2K British source book (not sure which one I have) it basically states that where I currently live in Castleford is, shall we say, FRAKKED, thanks to the quaint situation of the targets and wind direction, the red dot is Castleford, strategically unimportant in the 80's thanks to Thatcher closing down the pits.

Lee,

Okay, is that a good or a bad thing?

(Somewhat less importantly, are we allowed to curse like adults on this board? Just curious, because I never picked up any BG-reboot slang. Except I did like "Felgercarb" when I was a kid! )

It's funny, when doing the research for my T2K game I passed over the "canon" source (Legion McRae's source material) because in it the port of Vancouver was a target, and went with the core rulebook where the oil refineries and storage facilities were targets instead. In the former case my childhood neighborhood in Burnaby would have survived but it didn't come through as well in the latter case, being located near the petroleum storage facilities and refineries near Burnaby Mountain.

It's true, you can never go home again, although my family home had already been torn down to build a "monster home" in the early 90's.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by helbent4

R6,

I wasn't privy to those prior discussions but it makes sense.

Although, one thing to keep in mind is in the canon target list many governmental, military and civilian targets were spared because the warring nations (primarily USA and USSR) wanted to avoid sparking a general thermonuclear war. Mainly industrial and particularly power and fuel infrastructure was targeted. So maybe at least some of those "missing" targets were deliberately skipped.

Tony

Tony, you make a valid point there; that's partly the reason why I haven't made any major changes to the canon strikes*, as there are probably dozens of places that could have been hit in the UK but weren't, but as you rightly state an out and out attack was never the intention

There's also the possibility that some targets were meant to be hit but the missiles intended for them missed, and in the absence of satellites to carry out accurate damage assesment no follow up strikes took place.

* To be fair, I have made a handful of changes - I've "spared" Edinburgh and Birmingham, but added a sub 0.5 MT strike on Rosyth (which incinerated the town I grew up in!) and am considering adding a sub 0.5mt strike on RAF Greenham Common. Based on Ironside's post I'm also thinking about hitting Felixstowe / Harwich, I just need to give some thought as to how that would affect my plans for East Anglia...

If I follow through with all of those that's a net gain of 1 strike - I don't think I would want to go much further than that.

Cheers

Dave

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by LBraden

Aye, but under the "canon" T2K British source book (not sure which one I have) it basically states that where I currently live in Castleford is, shall we say, FRAKKED, thanks to the quaint situation of the targets and wind direction, the red dot is Castleford, strategically unimportant in the 80's thanks to Thatcher closing down the pits.

Yep, the north of England probably got the worst of it in the canon list...if it's any consolation I'm in Aberdeen, so am equally stuffed...

[dude_uk]

Interesting topic and It’s a bit of an oddity, the end of the cold war and “Options for change� affects equipment stocks massively. However by mixing and matching we can get a rough estimate for what would remain in 1995 when the Soviets invade China.

Originally Posted by Ironside

Even the webbing equipment of the late war British soldier benefited from the institutional hoarding tendency of the British Army. Modern webbing was almost replaced by ’58, ’44 and even ’37 pattern webbing by war’s end. The previously loathed Boot DMS that let down the British so badly in the Falklands was welcomed as much better than no boot at all, when no more Boots, High Combat were to be had. The steel helmet Mk V had never been completely replaced by the GRP helmet, some Home Service Force personnel were issued with them during the Russo – Chinese phase of the Twilight War. Subsequently the Mk V helmet became a much more common sight. Contrary to popular belief, the WWII style Mk II helmets seen in England were not WWII vintage, but were manufactured in Oxford* from original dies discovered in a Regimental Museum basement!

You seem to be under the impression that Britain stops making things from about 1989! Maintaining weapons for the purposes of 'just in case' is a very British army thing to do (The amount of Lee Enfield's the Army was keeping still greased up and ready to go circa 1980 is proof enough). Keeping Personal loading equipment is not.

With regards to helmets one of the more successful procurements was the GRP 'battle bowler' The British army was almost entirely equipped with this by 1990. So by 1995 your looking at decent war stocks that this remains the common sight helmet by UK forces both at home and abroad.

Also by 1989 point the army was having its replacement webbing PLCE rolled out by this point. Due to a manufacturing or design error the anti infer-red coating was not included in the manufacturing. It started out in Olive green and then the second correct run was made in DPM. The olive green version would probably have been passed on to TA. Its possible that Pattern '58 would still be seen. But patterns 38-44? not really.The numbers still in working condition and in large quantities would not be there for starters.

Combat boot high was not a great success, but definitely improved upon its predecessor. It was replaced by the 'Assault Boot' around 1991. So if anything combat boot high would have been in reserve not DMS boot (Which where probably all skipped).

By 1995 your looking at the entire British army (153,000 regulars 80,000 TA 10,000 HSF plus war stocks) being equipped with PLCE, GRP helmet and the assault boot.

The fact of the matter is that there are two points when Britain can begin re-manufacturing its equipment.

1) When the soviets cross the border with china, Britain along with the U.S and West Germany places its forces on alert. Possibly the British army of the Rhine is put on a war fitting and the stocks and equipment levels are probably checked on a dramatic scale. This gives the UK one year to find out all its equipment worries drama's and begin to purchase or replace new stocks.

2)There is also one year of complete war fighting before the 'Thanksgiving day massacre'. Its highly unlikely that British industry would not have been put on a war footing in that time and the replacements for weapons and equipment begin being made.

Plus the need to beginning training a slightly enlarged army would require more stocks. I'm doubting (But open to the idea) that conscription is introduced, but I believe that recruitment would be more 'aggressive' than normal coupled with perhaps more bored youths being enticed.


Your pretty much spot on weapons front though, whilst the UK forces in Eastern Europe and further abroad would have remained with the L85/L86 (If they worked!), The need to arm the police (Plus the odd traffic warden!) would have require them to be dusted off along with the sterling SMG. I've equipped a lot of post TDM Battalions with the SLR.

I'll include my thoughts on vehicles front later but its very interesting topic and I also highly recommend Rainbow six's thoughts on Britain. His thoughts on Scotland and the south-west are excellent

[Ironside]

@dude_uk

Thank you for your valuable comments; I'll be taking them on board. I'm not as knowlegable about the post Cold-War British army as I ought to be. Thank you particularly for your ideas on manufacturing as it's a subject I need to consider.

I too have my doubts about conscription; as I think that the enlarged wartime BAOR is getting close to the limit of UK logistics capacity without enormous investment.

This forum is so valuable to be able to bounce ideas off people. Thanks guys.

Simon

BTW I can just see the DMS Boots ending up with Trotters International Trading Co.

[LBraden]

Originally Posted by helbent4

Lee,

It's true, you can never go home again, although my family home had already been torn down to build a "monster home" in the early 90's.

Tony

Actually Tony, I was born in a small hill town in Derbyshire called Glossop, which is not far from Manchester, so that may have taken a good stint of radiation, but knowing the hills round there, may have protected it a bit because of the weird wind patterns round there.


Also, I noticed 'Thanksgiving day massacre' mentioned, due to my bad memory, is that when the nuclear exchange happened in T2K?