Why no China?

[Olefin]

per various sources - pre-1987 - with transition occurring in their army from then on into the late 90's/early 2000's from divisions to brigades

Each field army division under the old system had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion as well as support units

The garrison units were smaller as they usually only included infantry and artillery and typically only had three regiments of infantry and one artillery regiment

If you look at how the combat capable divisions were organized during the V1 and V2 timelines they were organized as follows:

three regiments (of three battalions each plus support units) (either armor or infantry) and then a fourth regiment that was either armor (in an infantry division) or infantry (in an armor division), an artillery regiment, an anti-aircraft regiment (or battalion), and then signals, engineer, recon, chemical defense battalions or companies and combat service units

There were many differences between category A and category B units - and the relative lack of APC's at the time meant that outside of armored divisions many infantry were transported in trucks. Similarly there was a lack of SPG's so mobile artillery in many cases was rocket artillery and most divisions had towed guns.

Also category A units had the best equipment while category B made do with older tanks and APC's - or in many cases were truck borne only as to transport

The current army is somewhat different as they use the brigade concept - so if you are looking at Twilight 2013 you are looking at brigade formations

Example - typical current PLAGF artillery brigade has 4 artillery battalions each with 18 guns in 3 batteries and 1 self-propelled anti-tank gun battalion (18 vehicles)

Currently a PLAGF armored brigade after the 1990's reorganization has 4 tank battalions with 124 main battle tanks, each composed of three tank companies of 31 tanks (10 per company and one battalion commander tank), a single mechanized infantry battalion with 40 APC's, one artillery battalion with 18 SPG and one anti-aircraft battalion

The tank divisions that the Soviets would have faced in V1 and V2 would have had three full regiments of tanks, each with 3 battalions each - thus 93 tanks per regiment with a total of around 280 tanks per division plus a full infantry regiment with (in a category A unit) some 120 APC's of various types

[Olefin]

FYI there are at least two Chinese Armies we know that the US forces linked up with per canon

US Army Vehicle Guide

25th Light Infantry Division - 9/7/97 - linked up with elements of the 31st Army

2nd Infantry Division - 8/1/97 - met up with and relieved surrounded Chinese 2nd Para Division. Then mentions it briefly came under the command of the Chinese 28th Army till that army's HQ was nuked and the army disintregrated

28th Army - from our timeline - From 1971 to 1998, this army corps belonged to the Beijing Military Region and was based in Shanxi Province, initially in Houma and then in Datong. At the time of its dissolution in 1998, the 28th Army was composed of the 82nd, 83rd and 205th Infantry Divisions, the 7th Armored Division, an artillery brigade, an anti-aircraft brigade, an engineer regiment, a communication regiment and a reconnaissance battalion.

31st Army - now the 73rd Army in our timeline - It was based at Xiamen, Fujian and is composed of the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions, along with an armored brigade, an air defense brigade, a surface-to-air missile regiment, an artillery regiment, and an engineer regiment. It is considered a Category A unit, with priority status in terms of readiness, strength, and modern equipment

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division

That either gives you a free hand to replace it with one of the real PRC Airborne Divisions or claim that they activated more airborne divisions during the war.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division

Chinese airborne divisions were under PLA Air Force control. the Chinese 15th Airborne Corps was a 35,000 strong force of 3 airborne divisions (43rd, 44th, 45th). There were other airborne regiments or brigades that may have equalled a division in size but I cant get a unit number for it.

When the Soviets invaded China this would have been a strategic reserve to be used against Soviet forces. They would have been better quality troops than the average PLA division but they were lightly armed. At some point the PLA would have sent them against advancing Soviet forces, were they would likely have been chewed to pieces by better equipped Soviet forces in the meat grinder that was the Soviet-Chinese War. Maybe the PLA raised more airborne divisions to replace them as I doubt any of them would have survived at division strength after a year or more of fighting.

[Olefin]

I would also suggest that the 2nd Parachute Division is not a true Para division but instead a division that could be air transported into combat by helicopter or short field/rough landing capable transports that could be composed of excess Air Force personnel from the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force – in other words a unit that was similar to the ones that Goering created after 1941 during WWII

And I agree that there is a very good chance that their original Para force was used to try to stop the Soviets and had their heads handed to them – possibly with a few survivors being used to form the new “Para” divisions

[Olefin]

Here is an idea for how such a sourcebook could be done - this would be the entry for the 205th Infantry Division which was part of the 28th Army as an example

205th Infantry Division – Northern Motorized Infantry Division, Catalog A

The 205th took heavy casualties during the initial fighting in 1995, helping to stop the Soviet drive on Beijing. It took part in the 1995 counteroffensive and was then pulled off the line to absorb infantry and tank replacements. In early spring 1997 it rejoined the 28th Army and took part in the last Chinese counteroffensive, overrunning and almost destroying the Soviet 153rd Motorized Rifle Division in the process. The division was destroyed by four tactical nukes on August 18, 1997 leaving less than 300 survivors to be captured by the Soviets.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Here is an idea for how such a sourcebook could be done - this would be the entry for the 205th Infantry Division which was part of the 28th Army as an example

205th Infantry Division – Northern Motorized Infantry Division, Catalog A

The 205th took heavy casualties during the initial fighting in 1995, helping to stop the Soviet drive on Beijing. It took part in the 1995 counteroffensive and was then pulled off the line to absorb infantry and tank replacements. In early spring 1997 it rejoined the 28th Army and took part in the last Chinese counteroffensive, overrunning and almost destroying the Soviet 153rd Motorized Rifle Division in the process. The division was destroyed by four tactical nukes on August 18, 1997 leaving less than 300 survivors to be captured by the Soviets.

Do you want to do a list like that of all the PLA divisions Olefin?

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

Do you want to do a list like that of all the PLA divisions Olefin?

I have been thinking of doing it and see what I can come up with - not sure if there is real interest in such a sourcebook though - if I did it would be something like you see in the original US and Soviet vehicle guides using what canon sources I can find to come up with the best guess I can on what the fates were of the various Chinese forces

The 28th and 31st Armies we at least have canon references to so thats a place to start

In many ways it would be a historical document (i.e. the Chinese Army really took it on the chin and a lot of the entries are going to read "destroyed", " overrun", "nuked" etc.. (you get the hint) but could also show the best guess at what is left and who they may be answering to (i.e. the warlords mentioned in the canon)

[Legbreaker]

I think China's basically too screwed up to bother with. Their military forces have been utterly devastated, and the northern part of the country at least glows quite brightly at night and has a rather glassy look to it.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

I think China's basically too screwed up to bother with. Their military forces have been utterly devastated, and the northern part of the country at least glows quite brightly at night and has a rather glassy look to it.

I could see a possible list of what happened and then some expanded info on areas that most likely would be of interest to for campaigns - which I would think would be area mentioned in Raellus's Korean Sourcebook and the area surrounding Hong Kong for the UK players who want to do a campaign there

[Rainbow Six]

I wrote this years ago. The order of battle would need some changes to be canon compliant.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I wrote this years ago. The order of battle would need some changes to be canon compliant.

Would definitely love to have that as part of any sourcebook

In fact one big source of info on what happened to the Chinese Army during and after the nuclear strikes as well as the status of whatever units remain would have been from the 6th as it fought its way back to Hong Kong and its activities after it got back

Based on it being part of the 31st Army for a short while it could have survivors from any of the units that were in that division - i.e. the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions or the support units that were part of it - as part of the troops that are still with them back in Hong Kong

[Legbreaker]

A source book would probably need to focus on the southern part of the country plus a bit of SE Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, etc but excluding the island nations such as the Philippines and Indonesia) to fill the pages with just a cursory coverage of the north.
Much of what's already in Bangkok, Merc and the Gazetteer would be applicable with a few minor tweaks here and there perhaps (Bangkok's vague enough that it can be used in either timeline without any trouble).
Northern China is just one big Devastated region with scattered random encounters and the odd Cantonment. Civilians have probably all cleared out of died long ago, and the soldiers that are left would probably be suffering quite badly from radiation, starvation and disease. The Pact units are likely looking to move back north out of the devastated zone, or east into Korea if they're still paying some sort of lip service to higher command.
Chinese units have likely become little different to marauders preying on each other and the handful of civilians too stubborn or unable to leave. Give it another couple of years and the whole region will likely be deserted for the most part with only rare settlements spread far apart to be found.

[Olefin]

I dont see Northern China as quite the wasteland you say it is Leg - mainly because the Russians still have troops there. If it was really the blasted radioactive ruin you depict then why do they have multiple divisions stationed in Manchuria still? You dont waste good troops guarding radioactive ruins

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps my description was a bit excessive, but seriously, can anyone really imagine there's much going on there of interest?
It was nuked heavier than anywhere else on the planet. Even Silesia, which suffered 97% population reduction didn't get hit anywhere nearly as hard as Northern China. Account for the hostile environment (even IRL it's not all that pleasant with 40 deg C (104F) summers and -30 deg C (-22F) winters), plus years of warfare, topped off with widespread nukes and there'd be lucky to be 1% of the population left - including the Pact forces bumping up the numbers.

[Olefin]

FYI if there was one area that got hit big time and I bet its the reason the Soviets were unable to finish the job in Korea is the area north of the Yalu River - if you read the canon the Soviets used a bunch of tactical nukes in that area to not only take out the 28th Chinese Army but also to majorly damage several US divisions - and have a feeling the US hit that area pretty hard as well as payback after they pulled back

must make getting any kind of supplies to North Korea and the troops that are there no fun at all if you basically have to traverse a wasteland to get them there

[unkated]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I agree completely with you - look at their delivery systems that they had - basically bombers that had very little chance of penetrating Soviet air space and if they Soviets got off their shots first most likely no surviving long range missiles - a few Soviet cities in the Far East might have been within their capabilities but no way do they hit the vital areas around Moscow or Kiev or Leningrad or Baku

Have to disagree with you.

The Chinese have the DF-4 and DF-5 ICBM.

• DF-4 (from China) can reach to US bases in the Pacific and Alaska, and across all of Europe to the Rhine. It is either launched from a cave or garage, or a silo. There are not many of these.
  
• DF-5 (from China) can reach anything except for South America. The DF-5 is usually deployed in pairs, in underground tunnels, and are rolled out and fueled before launch. For each missile, there are about a dozen fake tunnel entries (lest someone try to target them before use.
  
• China also would have had a few Long March 2A or 2C orbital launch vehicles to allow them to drop something anywhere. On the other hand, the facilities capable of launching the Long March are few - and well known.

However, the Chinese have few ICBMs missiles compared to the US or Soviets - a couple dozen DF-5s and fewer DF-4s. Unlike the US & USSR (who stock enough to destroy the other side even if hit first, as well as nukes for tactical (as opposed to strategic) uses, Chinese nukes are meant as a regional deterrent against against other nations with no or few nukes.

Now, having said that, this is not a nuclear force whose use would bring the USSR to its knees. If all survived to strike, the Chinese nuclear force is a fraction of the NATO/USSR exchange - and I doubt all of the Chinese units would have survived long enough to strike back - and some number were used operationally against Russian units in the field.

And that's before we discuss a "robust ABM defense"...

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

One thing to keep in mind with the canon is that it was written in the mid-1980's and many of the Chinese missiles they were familiar with were deployed in small numbers - or they may have only known about the liquid fuel ones - and they have a crucial vulnerability

i.e. the DF-4 only had four missiles operational in 1984 - but they can definitely bust a city if they get off the ground - 3,300 kt explosive yield - but they have to be fueled prior to launch

the DF-5 of which they had around 15-20 took as long as two hours to fuel which had to be done in the open - giving the Soviets a pretty good chance to nail them on the pad - that is for the ones in the tunnels

the ones in the silos can be maintained at ready to fire - but they had a very limited number in silos

the DF-3 has a range of 3,300 km - not enough to reach Moscow but they could really screw up cities closer - there were 50 of them in 1993 but they also had to be fueled prior to firing - so they could be caught on the ground

the DF-11 is solid fuel and is the one that could be launched under attack with no prep time - but it has much shorter range - only around 300 km - but there are a lot of them - the question is would China have used them conventionally first and how many were left to put nukes on

you also have the DF-21A which went into service in 1996 which the canon authors would have had no information at all - its road mobile and has good range and a 300kt warhead - but who knows how many were ever made before the Soviets hammered China

as for bombers the canon writers would only have known about the 120 H-6 bombers they had that were a variant of the Tu-16

the Xian JH-7 Flying Leopard that has a range and payload exceeding that of the F-111 wasnt deployed until 1992 - those planes had a real chance of making it to target versus the H-6 bombers

So the real question is given the existence of ABM's in the timeline how many would have gotten off the ground (you figure the Soviets would go all out to get as many as possible) and how many would have been shot down?

[Olefin]

Also China would have had no operational satellites for early warning - the only way they would have known about launches was from the US - and there isnt enough time to launch the liquid fuel rockets under attack - so that leaves you basically the solid fuel ones and maybe they get lucky and actually have a couple of liquid fuel rockets actually survive to get off the pads or silos

as for their Air Force - after two years of war with the Soviets it may be more a question of what was left of their nuclear capable aircraft when the time came - and you can see the Soviets going all out to knock as many out prior to the start of nuking China - and as opposed to the strikes against the US they didnt kid around with China - it was basically a full all out strike not just a couple here and there and slowing building up

[Olefin]

Example of a place I sure wouldnt have wanted to be in 1997 in the timeline

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-S...ery-Corps.html

The 54th Base consists of six missile units in eastern China. These units are as follows:
801st Brigade, DF-5A, Lushi
804th Brigade, DF-5A, Luoning/Luoyang
813th Brigade, DF-31, Nanyang
U/I Brigade, DF-4, Sundian
U/I Brigade, DF-31, Xixia
U/I Brigade, U/I missile, Sanmenxia

Now the DF-31 wouldnt have been there but the rest would have - so you can pretty much count on those areas getting very heavily hit by the Soviets - those are the rockets that have the best chance of devastating the Soviet heartland

[Legbreaker]

Yes, I just can't see the Chinese nukes being a credible threat to the Soviets given the history of the war to date and clear advantage the Soviets had with satellite surveillance.
You can bet any silos would have been identified early and targeted with the first wave. Satellites and other resources would certainly be focused on the mobile launchers with strikes occurring the moment they were exposed.
Strategically, Chinese nukes are only likely to be of much use in a first strike, surprise situation. In T2K they had no chance to get more than a handful off the ground, and as written in the timeline, the Soviet ABM system was very effective against them.

[RN7]

In the mid-1990's the Chinese nuclear arsenal was very weak compared with the US and USSR in both real life and T2K timelines, and was in fact less capable than British and French nuclear forces. Even today it is still weak.

At this time China had two ICBM: DF-4 and DF-5.

DF-4 ICBM (Range: 5,500-7,000 km with 1x 3.3 Mt warhead)
DF-5 ICBM (Range: 12,000-15,000 km with 1x 4.5 Mt warhead)

The DF-4 was barely even an ICBM and could scarcely reach Moscow from the Chinese east coast. The DF-5 was a minimal Chinese strategic nuclear deterrent against both the US and USSR. Numbers for both missiles varies (from a dozen up to 40) but I doubt China had more than 25 of both missiles in total at this time.

China's force of IRBM's was more formidable, they had at least 50 DF-3 and maybe a dozen DF-21

DF-3 IRBM (Range: 3,100 km with 1x 3,3 Mt)
DF-21A IRBM (Range: 2,150 km with 1x 300 kt)

Depending on where they were launched both missiles could hit anywhere in the Soviet Far East, and also most of Siberia and Soviet Central Asia. China also had over 100 tactical ranged DF-15 SRBM with a range of 600 km that were nuclear capable.

The Chinese Navy had only one operations SSBN at this time, the single Xia Class with 12 J-1 SLBM with a range in the IRBM class. It was old and noisy and probably sunk early in the war. China's nuclear bomber force consisted of about 120 Xian-H-6, a Chinese built version of the Tupolev Tu-16. China's stock of air dropped nuclear bombs was about 20. The Xian H-6 would have been shot to pieces by the Soviet air defenses.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by RN7

In the mid-1990's the Chinese nuclear arsenal was very weak compared with the US and USSR in both real life and T2K timelines, and was in fact less capable than British and French nuclear forces. Even today it is still weak.

At this time China had two ICBM: DF-4 and DF-5.

DF-4 ICBM (Range: 5,500-7,000 km with 1x 3.3 Mt warhead)
DF-5 ICBM (Range: 12,000-15,000 km with 1x 4.5 Mt warhead)

The DF-4 was barely even an ICBM and could scarcely reach Moscow from the Chinese east coast. The DF-5 was a minimal Chinese strategic nuclear deterrent against both the US and USSR. Numbers for both missiles varies (from a dozen up to 40) but I doubt China had more than 25 of both missiles in total at this time.

China's force of IRBM's was more formidable, they had at least 50 DF-3 and maybe a dozen DF-21

DF-3 IRBM (Range: 3,100 km with 1x 3,3 Mt)
DF-21A IRBM (Range: 2,150 km with 1x 300 kt)

Depending on where they were launched both missiles could hit anywhere in the Soviet Far East, and also most of Siberia and Soviet Central Asia. China also had over 100 tactical ranged DF-15 SRBM with a range of 600 km that were nuclear capable.

The Chinese Navy had only one operations SSBN at this time, the single Xia Class with 12 J-1 SLBM with a range in the IRBM class. It was old and noisy and probably sunk early in the war. China's nuclear bomber force consisted of about 120 Xian-H-6, a Chinese built version of the Tupolev Tu-16. China's stock of air dropped nuclear bombs was about 20. The Xian H-6 would have been shot to pieces by the Soviet air defenses.

Completely agree on the weakness of the Chinese nuclear force - have a feeling the Soviets didnt stop them all - thats impossible - but compared to the hellstorm that hit the Chinese the damage they took was minor - maybe at most 2-5 nukes that actually got thru and definitely not any of the city busters

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Completely agree on the weakness of the Chinese nuclear force - have a feeling the Soviets didnt stop them all - thats impossible - but compared to the hellstorm that hit the Chinese the damage they took was minor - maybe at most 2-5 nukes that actually got thru and definitely not any of the city busters

Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centres still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared. Ballistic missile attacks on Soviet population centres are frustrated by an active and efficient ABM system, and the Soviet Air Defence Command massacres the handful of Chinese bombers that attempted low-level penetration raids. Within a week, the Chinese riposte is spent, but Soviet attacks continue. The Chinese communication and transportation system, already stretched to the breaking point, disintegrates.The roads are choked with refugees fleeing from the remaining cities, all of them potential targets. China begins the rapid slide into anarchy and civil disorder.

While the books certainly don't rule out a Chinese success here or there, the text definitely downplays the handful that did get through. Besides a few units hit by tactical warheads, the nukes were pretty much one way.
I'd be surprised if the Chinese attacks lasted the week mentioned above, and didn't die out after the first 24 hours or so. Ok, there may have been one or two after that, but those missiles are likely to have been delayed more due to technical reasons than a desire to wait for the right moment. Those last few were almost certainly sent off out of pure desperation and/or refusal by generals and politicians to accept they weren't just beaten, but obliterated.

[Olefin]

I would say that the successful attacks were on the Soviet troops - i.e.

"The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared."

Meaning the bombs got to target and caused damage - but we arent talking concentrated forces that got hit - dispersed and well prepared - meaning ok maybe a couple of nukes hit a Soviet division but instead of taking it out as intended its more like maybe one or two battalions took it on the chin but the rest were ok - and they had electronics shut down to avoid EMP damage and men dug in deep so basically unless you were at ground zero you made it

whereas the Chinese units were hit either in road formation or in combat formation on the move - i.e. not dug in, electronics on and able to be fried by EMP, etc.. "Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit."

about the only Soviet unit that really got hit was the 148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - i.e. either they didnt get the word in time or something happened that instead of pulled way back, dispersed and dug in they were fighting for their lives against the Chinese and the Soviet nukes took them out too - or their communications failed and it was a case of friendly fire - i.e. they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got nuked instead of the Chinese unit the strike craft was supposed to hit

[Legbreaker]

I think that's a pretty good assessment overall. China as a whole got decimated while the Pact forces and homelands received a comparative rap on the knuckles.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

A source book would probably need to focus on the southern part of the country plus a bit of SE Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, etc but excluding the island nations such as the Philippines and Indonesia) to fill the pages with just a cursory coverage of the north.

Didnt one of the books say that Vietnamese got involved in opening a southern front against the Chinese? Im not at home to look it up.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by shrike6

Didnt one of the books say that Vietnamese got involved in opening a southern front against the Chinese? Im not at home to look it up.

Yes, it's mentioned in the Merc Gazetteer that

"In 1999, the forces of General Ch'en Mien-wu, warlord of Yunnan, invaded Vietnam, advancing down the Gam River valley with the intention of acquiring the city of Hanoi and the port of Haipong (Yunnan being landlocked and in need of access to the sea for economic reasons)."

Vietnam and Yunnan are far enough away from the fighting against the Pact that this is still possible in T2K, but with the lack of international, even regional trade occurring in T2K, and the obliteration of the bulk of Chinese forces (besides some lesser quality garrison type units) I think it's doubtful.
Advance the timeline at least five years though when the region has made some headway towards recovery and I think it becomes an interesting possibility.

[Olefin]

Actually if any of the Chinese forces would be intact it might be the ones along the Vietnamese border - they are ones that the Soviets would be highly unlikely to attack with nukes - mainly because they would be no threat to them - thus a warlord trying to attack Vietnam (as Leg said maybe in 2002-2003) that is the commander of those forces could be very plausible

[.45cultist]

I always laughed at "Peoples Liberation Army Navy". Just the name, not the organization itself.