Franken-AFVs

Originally Posted by Raellus

Russian 25mm 2M-3M naval gun emplaced on a Russian ATS-59G artillery tractor.

Oh Tovarisch! We have cannibalized too much of the Army for this war!

Well 'Tovarisch'.. have we cannibalized the Navy yet?

#RuzzianLife

[Raellus]

Another Rapira mounted atop an MTLB, this one with a wrap-around gun shield. The whole thing is somewhat reminiscent of a German Nashorn self-propelled AT gun from WW2.

[Homer]

And still no overhead cover…

[Raellus]

Rear view of the "assault APC" based on the T-64 chassis. I sure hope it keeps its "front toward enemy".

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[Raellus]

In Ukraine, UAF T-62 chassis are being converted to heavy IFVs by fitting them with BMP-2 turrets. At left is an image of a workshop where this FrankenAFV is being produced. On the right is a Algeria's version of a T-62 heavy IFC, these fitted with B05Ya01 Berezhok turrets.

[Ursus Maior]

Reportedly, Ukraine also converts some T-62s into ARVs to support its upcoming offensives.

[mpipes]

I don't see the point? Isn't a T-62 MBT more useful for offensive operations than a IFV?

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by mpipes

I don't see the point? Isn't a T-62 MBT more useful for offensive operations than a IFV?

Maybe they see 115mm as the .41 AE hipster caliber of tank guns.

- C.

[micromachine]

Might be a case of ammunition...the 115mm gun is not really as widespread as the 100mm or 125mm. Most of the users are not very pro West, or haver their own troubles to expend ammo on.

[Vespers War]

T-62 also has no autoloader, so they'd have to train another crew member for each tank crew. And only 42 are known to have been captured, which puts a pretty sharp limit on how many Ukraine could field (their last pre-war T-62 left service in 2000). I'm actually a little surprised they didn't all become ARVs or bridge layers (the other conversion Kharkiv had offered), since even as a HAPC they can only equip a small number of units with the vehicle.

[Raellus]

Apparently, the Ukrainians plan to use the T-62+BMP-2 Franken-AFVs as infantry support vehicles- not as heavy APCs, as first reported. That makes more sense, conceptually. It would appear that the BMPT-62's raison d'etre is similar to that of the Russians' BMPT Terminator- to provide assault infantry with direct fire support, especially during MOUT. It looks like the WW2 era assault gun concept is making a bit of a comeback.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=4f5b799684a3

Aside from the 30mm autocannon and 7.62x54mmR coax, we don't yet know if the UAF's BMPT-62s will pack any additional armament. I would reckon that they will add some sort of tube-launched ATGM, like the Algerians do with their own BMPT-62s (see post #65 for a pic), to give it the ability to take on enemy MBTs, if necessary.

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[Raellus]

This latest article calls the Ukrainian [BMPT-62] Terminator "a Frankenstein's Monster of captured Russian components." As you can see from the photo in the article, the Ukrainians have added reactive armor. I don't see an ATGM launcher yet, but that would probably be added on in one of the last stages of fitting out.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=6c30c9f15357

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[Vespers War]

Isn't the canvas bag covering the mount for the ATGM launcher? That sure looks like the area where the launcher usually is on a BMP-2 turret.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Isn't the canvas bag covering the mount for the ATGM launcher? That sure looks like the area where the launcher usually is on a BMP-2 turret.

On top of the turret roof? Yes, that's where BMP-2's traditionally mount an AT-5 Spandrel ATGM launcher. I'm not sure that's a canvas bag, though. It looks like an open turret roof hatch to me.

But you're right, it could be an ATGM mount. I was thinking that the Ukrainians might want to mount ATGM's on the turret sides, like the Algerian BMPT-62 in the photo upthread. AFAIK, the old roof mount required the operator to expose himself in order to launch/guide the missile. Newer systems allow the operator to remain "safely" inside the vehicle while operating the missile system. I thought that was what the Ukrainians would be going for.

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[Raellus]

This BMPT-62 looks ready to roll towards the front line. Surprisingly, I still don't see any evidence of an ATGM mount. I hope these things don't run into any Russian MBTs.

[Raellus]

This one doesn't make any sense. Raise the profile (making it a bigger target) to accommodate a few passengers? I don't think this one is going to catch on.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=7735d366318e

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[Raellus]

Here, we see a BTR-80 with UB-32 S-8 rocket pods, a MT-LB with a naval 140mm A-22 rocket launcher taken from a Zubr LCAC, and an MT-LB with improvised track side armor and twin DShK. I'd never considered it before the current conflict (does it have a name yet?), but it's interesting how many obsolete naval weapon systems the Russians have mounted to MTLBs. I reckon this is something one would see in the T2kU, as naval forces run out of fuel.

[kato13]

Yet another MTLB mod



Would not want to be on the mortar when the rocket launcher is fired.

[Homer]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Here, we see a BTR-80 with UB-32 S-8 rocket pods, a MT-LB with a naval 140mm A-22 rocket launcher taken from a Zubr LCAC, and an MT-LB with improvised track side armor and twin DShK. I'd never considered it before the current conflict (does it have a name yet?), but it's interesting how many obsolete naval weapon systems the Russians have mounted to MTLBs. I reckon this is something one would see in the T2kU, as naval forces run out of fuel.

Great thought! The tech is there to do an early version of C-RAM (essentially a ground mount 20mm phalanx that shoots HE instead of APDS) in the T2KU. If you could ensure power and ammo supply, you could even do expedient versions.

[Raellus]

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[Raellus]

The Russians are bolting RBU-60 anti-submarine rocket launchers to the backs of MTLBs.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=64178cc13917

I could easily see this happening in the Twilight War, as naval forces are whittled down by attrition and lack of fuel.

[Raellus]

From Popular Mechanics:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ored-vehicles/

The article gives a fairly detailed description of yet another ad hoc MT-LB "IFV", as well as a brief tactical analysis of its employment.

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[Ursus Maior]

Originally Posted by Raellus

From Popular Mechanics:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...ored-vehicles/

The article gives a fairly detailed description of yet another ad hoc MT-LB "IFV", as well as a brief tactical analysis of its employment.

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Interesting link, thank you for sharing. I sometimes think the Ukrainian MoD is running to many projects at one time and does neitzer prioritize well nor do they look for synergies. Instead of slapping this and that onto various MT-LB and MT-LBu APCs, I think it would be less time and ressource consuming to put a mid-weight RWS ontop of these oldtimers.

Rheinmetall's FLW200 can mount a M2 .50 cal and smoke launchers, while offering excellent optronics, without the need for punching big holes through the roof plate. The similar sized Kongsberg RS.4 can even add an ATGM while carrying a GPMG (maybe even an HMG), which would give a previously unarmed APC anti-tank capabilities.

Sure, it wouldn't be the TOW of a Bradley, but Spike and Javelin are good enough. And while it's a one-shot weapon that would need to be reloaded by a crew member leaving armor protetion for the process, it's better than nothing and infact quite something.

Adding spaced steel armor to the front and 1/3 or even 2/3 of the sides should also be enough and keep the MT-LBu from loosing to much of it's already feable power. And since modern non-penetrating RWS can be placed anywhere on top of a vehicle, putting them as far rearward as possible, balances out any front-heavy add-on armor.

As a bonus, modern RWS can be salvaged easily and repaired separetely. Buying 120 percent of needed units would allow for a floating reserve that could be screwed on, once a mounted unit receives battle damage. Servicing them could be done in country or in a service hub in Poland, Slovakia Romania or even further West.

[bash]

I think getting ahold of a supply of RWS is difficult for Ukraine at the moment. So that's one reason why they wouldn't use them on their MT-LBs. Another possible reason I was thinking is one of height. The MT-LB is very squat and seems a bit short for a Stormtro...IFV. IIRC dismounts need to basically climb over the engine compartment to get out of it.

A RWS would need to be mounted on some sort of tower to give it enough clearance to provide effective fire for dismounts. A lot of the guns and rockets we see mounted on MT-LBs either themselves have a fair height or look mounted for lobbed/indirect fire. A foot or two of height difference will significantly change the fields of fire for a RWS. With too little clearance they wouldn't be able to depress the barrel to fire into trenches. That eliminates some of their utility on a battle taxi.

Then of course there's the MT-LBs light armor. Equipping it with a relatively short ranged RWS will tempt commanders to try using it as a battle taxi and drive up on trenches. It's a lightly armored tractor rather than a real IFV.

[micromachine]

The baseline MTLB comes with a PKT in the little conical turret offset to the right...with a good welder and a bit of ingenuity, this could probably accept a .50 HMG or grenade launcher if the turret is replaced by a pintle and shield mount. Both of these are effective ranged fire weapons that will dissuade any future Heroes of the Russian Federation from trying to get a kill with short range anti-armor rockets.

[Raellus]

The Russians have mounted a ZU-23-2 to a BMP-1 to create an ersatz infantry fire support AFV.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidax...h=1757008538c0

Apparently, this isn't a new idea. TIL, the Armenians fielded a bespoke version (see pic).

I think a lot of AFVs that manage to survive until 2000 would not primarily perform the same roles that they did early in the war. For example, this Franken-BMP would be more useful as an infantry support AFV than as a true APC/IFV.

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[Vespers War]

Afghanistan also modified some of their BMP-1 by placing the ZU-23 on top of it, and Greece modified some of the BMP-1A1 Ost that they imported from Germany. I haven't seen numbers on how many either modified, but Greece had close to 500 of both the BMP-1A1 Ost and the ZU-23-2, so barring additional imports that's the maximum they could have converted (and it's probably fewer).

edit: one key difference is the Afghanis and Greeks replaced the main turret with the ZU-23, instead of glomming it on top of the existing turret.

This conversion probably makes even more sense now than it would twenty years ago, since it can also serve as a last-ditch SPAAG against low-end drones; while it's obsolete against most modern piloted aircraft, the Shaheds and Orlans of the world can still be engaged by small-caliber autocannon.

[Heffe]

This popped up yesterday from Ukraine. A BMW 7 series being utilized as a jury-rigged MLRS.

[Raellus]

I'm not sure if this thing was ever finished, and if so, whether it saw any action, but apparently a Libyan faction in the country's civil war started to convert a BTR-60 8x8 APC into an armored gunboat.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...med-into-boat/

I did not include include this in Baltic Boats https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...6/baltic-boats

Here's a CGI artist's rendering of what the finished product might have looked like:

[Raellus]

These monstrosities seem ridiculous, but they must be at least somewhat effective because the Russians keep making them.

IRL, the design intent is to provide protection from loitering munitions and attack drones.

Tactically, Russian "Turtle Tanks" are being employed like their first- generation WWI progenitors, acting as breaching vehicles for infantry attacks.

There's an argument to be made that "Turtle Tanks" would also appear during the later years of the Twilight War.

By 2000, operational armor is rare. So are current-gen ATGMs. However, most Soviet tanks are still pretty vulnerable to various types of LAW. "Turtle" tanks would be much less likely to be defeated by LAWs and RPGs, even massed volleys of them. A single "Turtle Tank" could lead an assault element against defended positions, much as they are doing now in Ukraine. That is, as long as the defenders didn't have their own tanks. In tank-on-tank combat, the Turtle Tank's compromised mobility, limited firing arcs, and reduced situational awareness would make it more, not less, vulnerable.