On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by cawest

is there a reason that 1st Brigade, 49th Armored Division did poorly at NTC and then was updated from M60A4s to M1s. i would think that the newer tanks would be used on a unit going to Germany or other combat zones.

I was trying to lay the groundwork for why a relatively high-readiness armored division would be spending the year sitting in Chicago waiting for transportation while the 50th AD (which historically had chronic issues maintaining troop strength and was considered a low priority unit) was sent to Europe in May. Certainly using Chicago as a port of embarcation causes problems with shipping, since only smaller ships fit through the St Lawrence Seaway into the Great Lakes, but in that case why not send the division to one of a dozen plus ports on the Gulf or East Coasts? Heck, 40th ID deploys through California ports and transits the Panama Canal.

As to the poor performance, you can look at the ample evidence from Desert Storm re: the readiness of National Guard heavy brigades. I'm positing that many of those issues were worked on in the 1991-96 period, since 1st Cav and 5th ID are sent into action in December with their roundout brigades, but my experience in a National Guard heavy division in the mid-90s showed that there were serious readiness issues. Soldiers were overweight, out of shape, too old and likely medically unable to deploy, basic soldier skills were not practiced, discipline was lax (I recall one occaision when our female company commander stood outsides the barracks, which was rocking and rolling, and said "I want this party to end since we have a convoy at 0500, but I don't dare go in there"), officers marginally qualified (at the time only 15% of captains in the state had a bachelor's degree), and so on - you could have described my unit as a drinking club that wore camouflage. I'm not saying my experience was universal - my next guard unit was equal in professionalism and discipline to an active-duty one - but I'm (for purposes of the timeline) going to lean to the 49th being more of the former than the latter.

Why would such a train wreck of a unit be slotted for an equipment upgrade? Maybe early results from combat in Europe showed the inferiority of the M60A4, and the Army figured that if 49 AD was going to require months of retraining (as National Guard roundout brigades needed in 1990-1) that some of that time could be used to field eqipment that 1) was less likely to get soldiers killed and 2) was familiar to active-duty troops and recent trainess which were coming in to the division to replace those that had been shown by NTC to be unable to perform their jobs.

As the war continues around the world, the new M1s and Bradleys that are supposed to go to 49 AD end up getting sent overseas as loss replacements, leaving the division sitting waiting for equipment, and when it does arrive, that's when the shipping delays come into play. It isn't pretty but it does provide some rationale for why the division never deploys overseas!

[Louied]

Chico, I think your doing a great job trying to explain how a Div slated to join III Corp would get stuck Stateside. I was thinking along the lines of it being in the midst of conversion to M1/BFV when the was kicked off in December, basically having the whole Div having to retrain.

I can post them later but some interesting things I have found to bolster your points (even though you know since you were there)

1) found a doc concerning observing 50 ARD in 1992 BCTP training/warfighter exercise…..” Observing the 50th Armor during BCTP is a sobering experience. I doubt this “crowd” could ever go to war in an effective posture”

2) from what I am finding the AC Corp commanders wanted priority for the separate ARNG Bdes to reinforce as they felt they were more useful initially to supplement the AC divisions (Roundup?)

3) it appears one of the ALB Future papers call for a Heavy Corps having, as separate maneuver formations…an Avn Bde, an AR Bde, an ACR, and a IN Bde (Rear Battle). Sep MXB would go to XVIII Corp and I/IX Corp for Korean contingency.1

4) again it appears from Congressional testimony that the AC did not have any faith that the RO Bdes would be ready when a war started, one statement was that they had no plans to send them over in REFORGER. It looks like 194 ARB & 197 MXB would have been used to RO 5 MXD & 1 CD (at least before 89 when 4 MXD lost their Bde)

Chico, keep up the good work and did you see my response to the UK JTP plans?
I can list all the US centric ones later tonight.

[pmulcahy11b]

Chico, you have been dealing a lot with the sea war. This is a much-neglected area of the Twilight War, in canon, supplements, and to tell the truth, by us on this board. It is a welcome addition.

[chico20854]

January 4, 1997

nothing official for today, but unofficially:

After refuelling and restocking, Convoy 202 (including the Idaho Freedom) sails from Honolulu, destination Guam. The convoy includes 38 cargo ships, a rescue vessel and five escorts and its passage is cleared by P-3 aircraft and long-range sonar surveillance from a supporting SURTASS ship.

NATO troops in Norway consolidate their gains, rounding up the last Soviet stragglers, clearing lines of communications, establishing support facilities and replenishing stocks from truck convoys. Naval units begin clearing harbor of Kirkenes of mines and debris, including a sunken Soviet landing craft.

The East German 18th Marine Regiment, isolated in Sasnitz since the beginning of the war, joins the NATO forces driving along the Baltic Coast. The US 11th Aviation Brigade launches a nighttime deep-penetration raid across the front line, disabling a pair of pontoon bridges over the Niesse river north of Gorlitz and wreaking havoc on the masses of Pact vehicles awaiting passage into Poland as Soviet forces evacuate East Germany.

The 1st and 2nd Brigades, 2nd ID are locked in fierce combat against North Korean armored forces, which outnumber the American force by nearly 5 to one. The superior American tanks with lavish artillery and air support inflict heavy losses on the North Koreans, but are forced to give ground by the sheet quantity of enemy armor as their ammunition supply runs low as congestion, awful weather, refugees and enemy commando action delay their resupply convoys.

photo
The American containership Sea-Land Mariner, carrying containerized supplies for American troops, is struck by a Soviet SSM in the North Sea and set afire. Dutch emergency vessels respond and after 14 hours extinguish the fire.

AFRICOM secures two C-141 flights to Morocco to transport military equipment and supplies that will be distributed to anti-Soviet guerilla groups throughout the continent.

Scattered skirmishes erupt on the Turko-Soviet border, as Soviet KGB Border Guards and Turkish gendarmes trade shots. Neither nation has the resources to escalate the fighting.

The Soviet Ministry of Fisheries issues an order for its deep draft trawlers and support vessels in the southen Pacific, Atlantic and Indian Oceans to rendevous at pre-designated points (well away from established shipping lanes) and await further orders, relayed from the Navy. Given the situation off the Soviet coasts, fishing craft are not to attempt the return voyage.

[chico20854]

January 5, 1997

photo
The US 25th ID(L) begins its deployment by air to Korea from its home station in Hawaii. Troops move on a fleet of US and Korean Air widebody jets, while the division's vehicles are carried aboard C-5, C-17 and C-141 airlifters.

unofficially:

The Freedom-class cargo ship Rhode Island Freedom is delivered in Portland, OR.

The Politburo decides to try to convince the Dutch and Danish publics of the high cost of their support of the war (and scare them out of continued support for the war) by demonstrative strikes on their nations. A Spetsnaz team scuttles a chemical tanker (loaded with poisonous benzene) in the mouth of Rotterdam harbor, booby traps it and lights it on fire, at the same time that a Soviet air raid bombs the refinery and chemical plant in the city and mines the harbor, followed by a Scaleboard strike with persistent chemical munitions on the port and the main rail junction. One of the Su-24s, dodging Dutch F-16s, accidentally releases its munitions onto the historic center of the city. A similar strike targets Aarhus in Denmark. Thousands are killed in both countries, overwhelmingly civilians.

photo
AFNON and X Corps launch an attack into the USSR, acting on the authorization by NATO heads of state a few days prior. (This is the first time American troops have fought Red Army troops on Soviet soil since 1919). Border guards offer stiff resistance, but the main opposition comes from the remnants of 6th Army, which is still reeling after the long retreat across northern Norway. The strongest resistance comes from paratroopers brought in to shore up the border defenses.

The attack submarine USS Bluefish sinks the Soviet frigate Deyatelny in the Black Sea, the first of several Pact ships it will attack as it patrols the generally hostile Black Sea.

Turkish troops cut the road and rail routes to the Bulgarian port of Burgas; the garrison and population there is sustained by stores on hand and what can be brought in the city's port.

Soviet commerce raiders sortie from havens in the Seychelles, Angola, Mozambique and Guinea.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by cawest

is there a reason that 1st Brigade, 49th Armored Division did poorly at NTC and then was updated from M60A4s to M1s. i would think that the newer tanks would be used on a unit going to Germany or other combat zones.

I've been to AT with 1st Bde, 49th AD, several times in the early-mid 1980s. And except for a couple of high-speed battalions and companies, 1st Bde was a cluster f**k every time. I don't know what training (if any) they did on their weekends. I don't know if they ever did any MUTA 5s or 6s. I don't know if any of their personnel ever did additional training. I don't know what their ratios of veterans -- nonveterans were. I don't know if anyone ever had them do alternate training (from proper paperwork to how to relube an M113 roadwheel in the field). But if 1st Bde was an example, the 49th AD was a mess, except for a few gems (Like my battalion, if I may say so myself -- I learned more from my time in 1/325 that I did my whole first enlistment in the Regular Army).

[chico20854]

January 6, 1997

photo
Responding to the prior day's attacks on Rotterdam, the Dutch government orders the Netherlands I Leger Korps into Germany to fight Warsaw Pact forces.

Unofficially:

The Dutch and Danish populations are outraged about the previous day's attacks and demand retribution against the USSR.

In Korea, the US 2nd ID's lines begin to strain as 1st Shock Army commits its third and final armored corps (the 806th) to the breakthrough. Some relief comes as VII ROK Corps releases the 20th Mechanized Infantry Division to reinforce the beleaugered Americans.

Pact forces begin pell-mell retreat from Berlin towards the Oder-Niesse line; poor weather prevents Allied airpower from devastating their columns. To the north, German troops reach the Polish border west of Szczecin and clash with outposts of the Polish 12th Armored Division. The Czech expeditionary force withdraws to home territory.

On the Kola Peninsula, X Corps troops are astride the Kola Highway west of Zapolyarny, threatening the road junction that leads to Nikel.

The Soviet Tango-class sub Novosibirsk Komsomolets sinks the Filipino bulk carrier Southern Princess carrying grain to Antwerp.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Louied

Chico, I think your doing a great job trying to explain how a Div slated to join III Corp would get stuck Stateside. I was thinking along the lines of it being in the midst of conversion to M1/BFV when the was kicked off in December, basically having the whole Div having to retrain.

I can post them later but some interesting things I have found to bolster your points (even though you know since you were there)

1) found a doc concerning observing 50 ARD in 1992 BCTP training/warfighter exercise…..” Observing the 50th Armor during BCTP is a sobering experience. I doubt this “crowd” could ever go to war in an effective posture”

2) from what I am finding the AC Corp commanders wanted priority for the separate ARNG Bdes to reinforce as they felt they were more useful initially to supplement the AC divisions (Roundup?)

3) it appears one of the ALB Future papers call for a Heavy Corps having, as separate maneuver formations…an Avn Bde, an AR Bde, an ACR, and a IN Bde (Rear Battle). Sep MXB would go to XVIII Corp and I/IX Corp for Korean contingency.1

4) again it appears from Congressional testimony that the AC did not have any faith that the RO Bdes would be ready when a war started, one statement was that they had no plans to send them over in REFORGER. It looks like 194 ARB & 197 MXB would have been used to RO 5 MXD & 1 CD (at least before 89 when 4 MXD lost their Bde)

Chico, keep up the good work and did you see my response to the UK JTP plans?
I can list all the US centric ones later tonight.

Thanks for the comments! Yes, I saw your response; that would be great!

I did see some of those documents on the model corps structure, and it sure looks different from the cobbled-together divisions and corps that GDW laid out! And GDW certainly didn't know (or decided to ignore) the readiness problems.

I'll probably use the same rationale for 42nd ID as well. I'm also going with the idea that the Army establishes two more NTCs, at Yakima Firing Range in Washington and Yuma Proving Grounds, Arizona as well as setting up a second JRTC (at Ft Chaffee or Ft Polk, whichever your t2k world has the other one at) with the idea that most reserve component brigades will get at least a 3-week rotation through before deploying. Seeing if it's possible to fit those resources with the deployment schedule GDW laid out is on my to-do list... I recall the 1990s "what to do with the National Guard" discussions where there was considerably more enthusiasm for independent brigades to augment the AC than there was for the continuation of entire divisions.

I'm also going on the idea that some reserve component units had their act together. The 116th ACR is listed as deploying to Germany early in 1996(!) and as I noted 256 Bde and 155 AB deploy with their AC divisions. The 35th ID also is an early deployer.

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

Chico, you have been dealing a lot with the sea war. This is a much-neglected area of the Twilight War, in canon, supplements, and to tell the truth, by us on this board. It is a welcome addition.

Thanks! I'm glad you guys are enjoying this. I have a lot of my stuff on the naval war that I've been putting together over the years. I would balance it out with more from the air and ground side but I don't have as much to draw on... my Battle of Germany doc is really just a bare outline, with less detail than I've already put in here. Once Advent Crown kicks off in April I have my history of that campaign to draw on through the summer. I'm still spending a couple hours a day scraping various sources and beefing up the master timeline document, trying to balance going over a lot of sources for what I need to post today/this week/this month with trying to go through a source comprehensively so that I know it's all in there.

[stilleto69]

Great work as always Chico. I've been using your idea of new JRTCs at Yakima PG, Ft. Chaffee and Ft. Polk. I figured what a better way to try get as many units ready for the meat-grinder in Europe.

[Louied]

Chico,

I will post the list of U.S. oriented JTPs here this weekend.

Shrike,

I forgot if you are on Tanknet too but we were discussing updating the NATO ORBAT. The idea was to take a country section and each person update what is in version 8.5, then we would post it and Pat Callahan (who is still on) would incorporate it into the master document. I was going to do BAOR and take a stab at the U.S. one. I just haven’t had time. Are you interested?

[chico20854]

January 7, 1997

The Dutch 4th Mechanized Division enters Germany.

Unofficial:

The 278th ACR loads the last of its vehicles on ships assigned to Convoy 110 in Savannah, Georgia for transit to Germany.

Nine MC-141s of the 76th Military Airlift Squadron arrive at Clark, AFB, Phillipines.

The first contingent of East German POWs captured the prior year in China arrive in Hickam AFB, Hawaii for a week of leave before continuing their journey home.

British forces reach Frankfurt-an-Oder on the Polish border. They enter the city, but are unable to seize the bridges over the Oder.

photo
182nd Tactical Fighter Squadron begins combat air patrols over Turkey from the airbase at Batman. Its F-16Cs are initially tasked with air defense of Southeastern Turkey but soon will receive orders to interdict Soviet supply lines in northwestern Iran.

A F-16A of the 482nd Tactical Fighter Wing's 89th Tactical Fighter Squadron (AFRES) intercepts a Soviet Be-12 anti-submarine patrol aircraft over the Black Sea and downs the lumbering flying boat.

A Soviet raider sinks a Cypriot-flagged ore carrier leaving Durban, South Africa with a cargo of chrome ore.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Louied

Chico,

I will post the list of U.S. oriented JTPs here this weekend.

Thanks!!!!

[Homer]

Great work on the timeline! It really fills in the gaps.

One thing I always felt was missing in canon was the echelon above division US forces, especially in Europe. Part of the buildup and transition to war would have been the mobilization of reserve units and facilities. The Army maintained a general officer reserve command under 7th Army which had over 1000 drilling reservists plus additional IRR or individual augmentees who would fill support, engineering, and medical positions in Europe based regular and reserve units on mobilization. In addition, the USAF and Army maintained contingency medical facilities in the UK and Germany to be filled by reservists. All these would be additive to the existing depot and logistics structure- vehicle rebuild, fuel pipelines, even a dairy plant and bakery.

While cannon alludes to these units either falling victim to tactical strikes or being gradually folded into divisional structures as replacements, some of it has to have survived post TDM to enable the buildup for the offensives in 1998 and 2000.

[chico20854]

January 8, 1997

Feeling emboldened by Turkish success in Bulgaria, Cypriots of Turkish descent hold a rally in Nicosia. Some fly the Turkish flag, despite the reunification of the island in 1994. Greek youth heckle and jeer the rally, and the situation escalates into scuffles and broken glass.

Unofficially:

US Pacific Command launches Operation Steel Bandit - US Navy and USAF units, with support from allies, launch raid on Soviet naval station at Cam Ranh Bay, Vietnam. The air strikes from the carriers Ranger and Abraham Lincoln and Clark AFB in the Philippines are nearly disastrous, but US Army Rangers from the 6th Ranger Battalion and allies land at the airfield and destroy vital facilities and tangling with responding troops from the 50th GMRD. Overall the costly raid is successful in halting the Soviets' use of the former US base for missions over the South China Sea and ferry bombing missions across China to Siberia.

The 163rd ACR (MT and TX NG) completes loading its troops, vehicles and heavy equipment on ships in Tacoma, Washington for transit to Korea. The group of ships is designated Convoy 205 and heads out that evening, escorted by a force of the destroyer Towers, frigate Lang and Coast Guard cutter Jarvis.

Remaining Pact troops are driven out of East German territory. German troops, a combination of the Schleswig-Holstein Territorial Command and East German 5 Armee, cross the Polish border west of Szczecin, intent on securing a solid front line along the Oder-Niesse line and giving the Polish Government in Exile a slice of Polish territory to bolster its legitimacy.

The Soviet destroyer Buliny, damaged early in the war in the Norwegian Sea but repaired and replenished, under the command of Captain 2nd Rank Mikhail Mischenko, slips across GIUK gap by hiding in iceberg fields in the Arctic night.

The attack submarine USS Bluefish takes up station off Burgas, Bulgaria to interdict the city. It sinks the Soviet troop transport Shota Rustaveli but is spotted by a Bulgarian Mi-14 helicopter, beginning a three-day ordeal to escape a Pact ASW task force vectored onto it.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

Great work on the timeline! It really fills in the gaps.

One thing I always felt was missing in canon was the echelon above division US forces, especially in Europe. Part of the buildup and transition to war would have been the mobilization of reserve units and facilities. The Army maintained a general officer reserve command under 7th Army which had over 1000 drilling reservists plus additional IRR or individual augmentees who would fill support, engineering, and medical positions in Europe based regular and reserve units on mobilization. In addition, the USAF and Army maintained contingency medical facilities in the UK and Germany to be filled by reservists. All these would be additive to the existing depot and logistics structure- vehicle rebuild, fuel pipelines, even a dairy plant and bakery.

While cannon alludes to these units either falling victim to tactical strikes or being gradually folded into divisional structures as replacements, some of it has to have survived post TDM to enable the buildup for the offensives in 1998 and 2000.

Welcome to the forum!

I hope to shed some light on these organizations as well as the vast WHNS (Wartime Host Nation Support) organization within the German territorial army structure. Part of my challenge with this is finding the information, since my orbats focus on the combat arms units, but I will dig through some back issues of Army Logistician and see what I can find! I have an easier time with the corps-level brigades, MP, Field Artillery and to a certain extent Engineer. As I keep developing my resources I will put more of these in.

[Homer]

Thanks! It’s already a great piece of work.

21st TAACOM was a beast at its height. While some it’s units were tied to static facilities, others could and did deploy off Kaserne during alerts. There were also the Corps Support Commands.

The UKdo’s were pretty interesting. I wonder if they’d have gone forward with their supported organizations into the DDR or Poland? Or would they have formed support structure for the Heer as it expanded and absorbed the NVA?

I read your piece on 1998. It’d be interesting to see the wallmeisters in action. From what I know they were very skilled at their job, we’ll supplied, and familiar with the terrain in their areas of operation.

[chico20854]

January 9, 1997

Nothing official today, but unofficially:

The first units from the US 25th ID(L) enter combat in Korea, reinforcing the battered 3rd Brigade, 2nd ID as they strive to contain the North Korean advance.

Open rebellion breaks out in scattered Polish Army units, mostly in individual battalions or regiments within a division, in response to the Pact defeat in East Germany and emergence of a Free Polish government.

The Dutch Red Army attempts to ambush a truck convoy leaving the Stegerveld ammunition dump; the convoy guards suppress the attackers and the convoy moves on.

photo
Unrest in Nicosia, Cyprus continues. Greek and Turkish youth engage in street battles while nationalist leaders call for calm.

The 126th MRD enters Romanian territory, assigned to the 5th Guards Army, and is almost immediately in action.

The 482nd TFW (AFRES) launches an offensive fighter sweep over Turkish troops in Bulgaria, drawing out Bulgarian Air Force fighters and allowing American ELINT aircraft orbiting over Anatolia to identify the electronic emissions of Bulgarian air defense units. One F-16, two MiG-21s and a MiG-29 are shot down.

The Ranger and Abraham Lincoln carrier battle groups steam east at high speed, while the Boat Troop of NZSAS made a more leisurely exit from the Cam Ranh region aboard the late Admiral Selevinski’s barge, enjoying the liquor and company aboard.

[Homer]

The piece on the Cam Ranh raid is really good. Great writing and really expands the naval war outside the European theatre and Gulf of California!

The ELINT piece is pretty neat. One thing that always struck me in cannon was the fact that effective intel organizations existed beyond TDM. Even though main NSA was probably destroyed during the strike on Meade and Medina was probably lost to the Mexican invasion, the US (or MILGOV) should still have some SIGINT capability. Fort Gordon and the NSA facility there sit within the “Iron Triangle”, and Buckley in Aurora should be firmly under control. Ergo, reset, the last submarine series, satellite down, and other modules may be driven by at least partly by SIGINT.

NIMA may have survived in St Louis, but the Brookmont HQ is likely gone, either fallout from the strikes in the DMV or overwhelmed in civil disorder. Given the attrition of overhead platforms to ASAT and loss of Vandenberg and Canaveral, they may still be able to meet MILGOVs needs. Dissemination would be the problem.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by chico20854

January 9, 1997... while the Boat Troop of NZSAS made a more leisurely exit from the Cam Ranh region aboard the late Admiral Selevinski’s barge, enjoying the liquor and company aboard.

If it was going to be anybody doing this is would be the Kiwis and the Aussies

[chico20854]

January 10, 1997

Nothing official today, but unofficially:

photo
The 202nd Tactical Fighter Squadron (SC Air National Guard) is reported ready for action following its conversion from F-4Es (which had been transferred to the Luftwaffe's JBG-36 in November to replace their losses) to F-20A Tigersharks.

An explosion rocks the ATACMS missile assembly plant in Horizon, TX. Thanks to the construction of the facility only one building is destroyed, killing 8 workers.

photo
In the North Pacific, 3rd Fleet launches Operation Steel Force - a raid on the Soviet naval complex Petropavlovsk-Kamchaktiy by the carriers Nimitz and Constellation. The raid is less costly than the recent raid on Cam Ranh Bay, but succeeds mostly in knocking back the city's air defenses and mining the channel leading out of the sheltered bay, with little direct damage to Soviet naval forces.

There is chaos in the Polish Army as rebel units call on their compatriots to join them. Polish Generals order all units locked down as they attempt to regain control, furiously trying to avoid having Soviet units put down the uprisings.

There is a third night of violence in Cyprus. Rioting expands to the city of Larnaca on the south side of the island.

USAF and Turkish Air Force units launch raids on the Bulgarian air defense network, enlarging the hole that had been created the Turkish advance into southeastern Bulgaria.

The Soviet Naval Infantry's 810th Brigade loads onto amphibious shipping in Sevastopol as high-priority reinforcements for battered Bulgarian troops facing the advancing Turks.

The 116th MRD, a mobilization-only division from the Leningrad MD, is called into service.

In the central Pacific, the commander of the 7th Fleet orders the USS Ranger's air wing to transfer as many surviving aircraft and aircrew as possible to Abraham Lincoln's in order to bring it as close to full strength. Advanced munitions are to be offloaded to replenishment ships accompanying Ranger and the carrier is ordered to return to the west coast for reconstitution while Abraham Lincoln is to sail north to support the embattled allied forces in Korea.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

The piece on the Cam Ranh raid is really good. Great writing and really expands the naval war outside the European theatre and Gulf of California!

The ELINT piece is pretty neat. One thing that always struck me in cannon was the fact that effective intel organizations existed beyond TDM. Even though main NSA was probably destroyed during the strike on Meade and Medina was probably lost to the Mexican invasion, the US (or MILGOV) should still have some SIGINT capability. Fort Gordon and the NSA facility there sit within the “Iron Triangle”, and Buckley in Aurora should be firmly under control. Ergo, reset, the last submarine series, satellite down, and other modules may be driven by at least partly by SIGINT.

NIMA may have survived in St Louis, but the Brookmont HQ is likely gone, either fallout from the strikes in the DMV or overwhelmed in civil disorder. Given the attrition of overhead platforms to ASAT and loss of Vandenberg and Canaveral, they may still be able to meet MILGOVs needs. Dissemination would be the problem.

Dissemination (and comms in general) is the biggest problem! After Soviet EMP attacks and the general breakdown of order, even hardened facilities/assets are at risk of civil disorder and the demands of continuing to operate for three years without pre-war levels of support - electricity, food, fuel for backup generators, spare parts, motivation for staff (although rage against the Soviets is a strong one!). In a way, yes, canon is amazing with the level of intel activity that is still ongoing, although they concentrate on the HUMINT side rather than ELINT.

I'm also sort of struck by the important locations that are mentioned as intact in canon - Ft. Benning, Ellsworth AFB, most of the military industry. I guess part is that the anti-C2, anti-petroleum strikes with limited counterforce was sufficient to cripple both nations without leading to an all-out exchange. As we like to remark in the DC Working Group, we want this to remain Twilight:2000 and not Gamma World!

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Targan

If it was going to be anybody doing this is would be the Kiwis and the Aussies

We are all aware (and fully supportive) of folks having a good time!

[Homer]

I’ve always chalked a large part of the damage in canon up to two things: first, adventuring after even a counterforce exchange would suck (fallout over the Midwest, the old NW, and mid Atlantic) and would really just be a struggle for calories; second, much of the knowledge we have today was unavailable or even protected in the 80s (the Greenbriar gets no mention and NSA was still “no such agency”). With that in mind, most of the plot devices never fazed me (seminoles overrunning SE Florida, the drought, and naval attrition notwithstanding).

Really cool to see you putting meat in the bones of canon. Keep it up!

[Homer]

Interesting you mentioned the 25th ID. A friend of mine was assigned to the “25th Dimension” during a simulation exercise in Korea. He stated the sobering moment came when the division was “ineffective” roughly 5 days after commitment against a heavy model NK force using just conventional weapons, no NBC.

[cawest]

i could see that the USS Ranger's air wing now gets F-8s, Harriers, A4, A7, Vikings. i don't seem them bring out Demons, but A-1's with sidewinder for CAP. these craft would make this a good sub and raider hunter.

[Ursus Maior]

Sidewinders against submarines? Or do I get that wrong and you mean sidewinders for self-defense and other stuff for ASW/ASuW?

[cawest]

Originally Posted by Ursus Maior

Sidewinders against submarines? Or do I get that wrong and you mean sidewinders for self-defense and other stuff for ASW/ASuW?

sidewinders (and cannon) would be used for fleet defense and to cut down any bombers, helos, or "other" light aircraft that might be away from the "main" battle areas.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by cawest

i could see that the USS Ranger's air wing now gets F-8s, Harriers, A4, A7, Vikings. i don't seem them bring out Demons, but A-1's with sidewinder for CAP. these craft would make this a good sub and raider hunter.

The next aircraft to come out of storage (less those sold to Iran and China in 1996) are A-7Es and F-4Ss, which were retired from USN service in the early 90s, along with A-4s of various models, which had remained in limited service (and were in USMC reserve squadrons). There were still older sailors, aircrew and reservists that were familiar with them. I have a plan for the older AV-8C Harriers, don't worry! The S-3 Viking remain in front line service, there are too many Soviet subs about to send them ashore!

By the summer, half of Strike Fleet Atlantic fighter and light attack squadrons are flying F-4s and A-7s. The A-12 never gets produced in sufficient numbers to do anything other than maintain Enterprise's all weather attack squadrons at about proper strength.

[chico20854]

January 11, 1997

photo
NATO minelaying of the GIUK gap begins.

unofficially:

The French government files a formal protest and a request to a German court to force compliance with commercial charter contract on the German-flagged cargo ship Ariana, which France claims has an obligation to continue to transport Ariane rockets to the launch facility in French Guiana. The ship is instead en-route to the US to load military equipment. (The French government fails to note that it is intent on lofting a electronic intelligence satellite with the rocket, hence the demand for quick action.)

Texas Rangers report that they have recovered a Soviet AT-4 missile transport tube near location of prior day's explosion at the ATAMS missile assembly plant outside El Paso.

The tug boat Janet Pommet is hijacked by unknown agents and sunk in San Diego harbor channel, partially blocking it.

RAF Mildenhall is hit by Soviet cruise missiles once again launched over the Baltic Sea and overflying southern Sweden; The Commanding Generals, USAF Europe and 3rd Air Force and some of their staff are killed. A C-23 light transport and two EC-135H Command & Control aircraft are destroyed.

NATO launches Operation Thundercloud - coordinated pre-dawn landings by the British 6th Airmobile Brigade, East German 40th Air Assault Brigade and the West German 26th Luftlande Brigade to seize bridgeheads over the Oder and Niesse Rivers, opposite Frankfurt-on-Oder, Gubin and Gorlitz, taking advantage of the disarray within the Polish Army.

Canadian and British fishing boats, B-52s from the 42nd Bomb Wing and USCG C-130s are initially involved in the minelaying effort in the North Atlantic, intending to cut off the resupply routes that SACLANT suspects are being used to support Soviet commerce raiders.

A bus full of Turkish Cyptiot construction workers in Limassol, Cyprus is stopped and the passengers dragged off and beaten by a Greek mob. The subsequent rioting expands across the island.

The advance party of the 278rd Armored Cavalry Regiment is flown to Amsterdam-Schipol airport to arrange for reception of the rest of the regiment.

A shipowner reports loss of communications with the MV Diamond Cherry, carrying grain from Port Elizabeth, South Africa to Rimini, Italy.

[chico20854]

Originally Posted by Homer

Interesting you mentioned the 25th ID. A friend of mine was assigned to the “25th Dimension” during an simulation exercise in Korea. He stated the sobering moment came when the division was “ineffective” roughly 5 days after commitment against a heavy model NK force using just conventional weapons, no NBC.

I was reading through some declassified British studies from the early 70s, and they discussed that the only practical way to delay the collapse of defense and start of tactical nuclear war on the Central Front in Germany was to set the initial defense line another 100km to the west, hoping that obstacles and roads flooded with West German refugees would delay advancing Soviet forces. That would buy an extra day or two, bringing the total length of the conventional phase of the war to...

2-4 days.