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View Poll Results: What is your favorite assault rifle for your PC | |||
M-16/C-7/M-4/AR-15 series |
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50 | 48.08% |
AK-47/AKM |
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15 | 14.42% |
AK-74 and similar |
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6 | 5.77% |
L-85 |
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8 | 7.69% |
AUG |
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6 | 5.77% |
Galil |
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5 | 4.81% |
FNC / AK 5 |
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4 | 3.85% |
other (post below) |
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12 | 11.54% |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 104. You may not vote on this poll |
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#91
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- C.
__________________
Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
#92
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My problem is not with 5.56, it is with the M855 round. The 55 grain m193 cartridge was a lead core with a full metal jacket. It would flip end for end when travelling through meat creating great wound channels. Sometimes the nose would separate from the base and angle away. This would create to wound channels. The Hague conventions on ammunition made a mistake mandating pointed ammo as that can cause a more grievous wound than rounded nose. Anyway the 62 grain M855 is Armor Penetrating with a tungsten rod surrounded by lead. It is balance for it length. It doesn't yaw and drives right through like an ice pick. Small tight wound channels with small disruption of blood vessels. The damn Fedayeen using opiates in battle in OIF 1 seemed to keep going when hit. They didn't feel it whacked on pain killers but, certainly died later. It is why Mk 262 and SOST is working better. The Insurgents are not wearing body armor and the M855 goes right through them. Unofficially it is taught now to shoot for the pelvis or scapula to make an incapacitating bone break. Skirting legality though. |
#93
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I agree though it's bad practise to remove your master hand from the pistol grip, but if that's the way the weapon is designed, so be it. You can't actually shoot while operating the cocking handle anyway (unless there's something seriously wrong with the weapon), so it's not all bad. And then there's bolt action rifles....
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#94
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Quite right: Should have made the distinction between what we use now and what it was designed to use, as its two very different things.
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#95
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However I have seen lots of evidence first hand of the M855 round over-penetrating and doing relatively little damage on wood, metal and more importantly, on feral animals (particularly goats). The M855 round (specifically the Australian version of it) was in use with a number of Agricultural Protection officers in Western Australia in the early 1990s for culling feral goats, cats, foxes and dogs. They were using semi-auto versions of the F88 Austeyr (or it could have been that the full-auto lock-out was permanently fixed, I can't remember), the rifles and ammo were supplied direct from the Small Arms Factory, Lithgow. The M855 round would drill right through the goats and they would stand there, look at you and then run off a couple of hundred metres to hide in the scrub only to bleed out later. Even gutshots didn't drop them with the 5.56mm. I can tell you, those goats were not using opiates - well, as far as I'm aware but you know what some of those radical goats are like, long beards, shaggy hair, don't bother to wash, berets & turtlenecks and using any kind of weed they can find, bloody hippies and beatniks the lot of 'em! ![]() ![]() I tend to believe that a lot of the problems with dropping Fedayeen in OIF1 came down to over-penetration/low damage of the 5.56mm M855 ammo and the fact that the Fedayeen were very well motivated by religious belief rather than the idea that they were 'hopped up' on drugs. |
#96
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These birds would walk right across the range, blithely ignoring the 40 firers and their noisy rifles trying to qualify on a pop up range. Birds would hop, ruffle their feathers, and keep on strutting along. Technically your supposed to shut down the range for wild life. However the turkeys are so numerous that no one closes a range because of them. Quote:
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#97
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In the book Blackhawk Down, Somali fighters are described as being hopped up on a popular, locally grown stimulant called Khat [sic]. Some of the American Delta boys were using titatium-tipped 5.56mm ammo in their M4s and they apparently passed right through their unarmored targets, who continued to fight as if nothing had happened. Regular 5.56mm had roughly the same effect in many cases. During the battle of Fallujah, Marines found stockpiles of perscription stimulants, atropine, and adrenaline among insurgent weapons caches (No True Glory- Bing West; House to House- David Bellavia). Apparently, the insurgents were pumping themselves up for the fight. Once again, it was probably a relatively small number of fighters doing it, but the sight of one or two guys taking multiple rounds center mass or having limbs blown off and continuing to fight would tend to leave a pretty strong and frightening impression. Troops can be forgiven for spreading/believing those kinds of stories.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 10-12-2011 at 08:49 PM. |
#98
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In Bowden's book, he talks about the same problem with 7.62x51 AP ammo through M60s.
When it's all said and done, people can be both surprisingly hard and surprisingly easy to kill, just depending. (That said, I agree on the issues with M855 -- problem I see with it is consistency, with way too much variation in terms of accuracy and lethality across lots due to the overly complex nature of the projectile.) |
#99
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Which is why AP shouldn't be standard issue....
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#100
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armor piercing ammo should only be issued out in large scale if your expecting armor wearing bad guys. ball ammo or hollow points for unarmored bad guys.(considering the hague only got a handful of countries to even show up let alone agree to the damned thing i see nothing wrong with dum dum bullets for a fight)
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the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed. |
#101
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The restriction on projectiles intended to cause unnecessary suffering only applies to opponents who adhere to the laws of land warfare -- which insurgents can do, though the current crop of ass hats certainly fail to do.
As such, technically zapping them with the finest maiming technology modern science can dream up (as well as summary executions and other bits of extremity much frowned on these days) is permissible, though the political costs of such are obviously show stoppers. |
#102
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It was, apparently very popular in WW2 for use by BAR men in US formations because it penetrated structures and cover better. I've always wondered if the use of it in Somalia was someone looking backwards and thinking if it was good enough for D Day itches good enough for Mogadishu.
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#103
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P.S. - Since this is for assault rifles only, my choice is the AKM/AK-47, but the rest of my post about having a battle rifle stands.
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Slave to 1 cat. Last edited by Nowhere Man 1966; 10-16-2011 at 04:33 PM. |
#104
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Personally I'm not a huge fan of the 7.62S round. Very hard to hit the broad side of a barn at a decent range unlike 7.62N. Hell, even 5.56N is in my experience more accurate (if less hard hitting).
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#105
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The fact remains that 7.62mm is too heavy and too high power to be practical for the engagement ranges that most soldiers will find themselves fighting at. Folks have known this since WWII (at the latest) and that's why 7.62 x 39mm and other "intermediate" rounds were developed.
Yes, if most engagements were at 300m +, then 7.62mm L would be the way to go, no question. But for fights at less than 200m- and that's most fights nowadays- it's just too much round for the job. And if you want to have the full auto fire option, forget about 7.62mm L. I'm not saying that 5.56mm (or 5.45mm) is a particularly good round- there are probably better- but the 7.62mm L is not the be-all, end-all of assault rifle bullets. There's a reason why a lot folks insist on the distinction between "battle" and "assault" rifles. They're different classes of firearms, due, for the most part, to the size and power of the cartridge they fire. Nearly everything that I've heard and/or read states that accurate full-auto fire is almost impossible with a 7.62mm L rifle. I mean, nearly every Western GPMG uses the same round and they all have bi-pods/tri-pods. I'm just getting kind of tired of the 7.62mm L love-fest going on here. If it was so ideal, why isn't more widely used in modern assault rifles? And don't get going on politics or the evil U.S.A. military-industrial complex. I'll put it in the non-fiction recommendations thread but if this sort of thing interests you, you should read The Gun (by Chivers). It's a history of the AK-47 series with a good long preface (the first third of the book) on the history and development of the fully automatic gun. There's also a lot about the development of the M-16 rifle and, although the author tries to avoid getting drawn into the whole 7.62mm S vs. 5.56mm round debate, there is some interesting stuff about that as well (including top-secret comparison testing on cadavers surreptitiously imported from India).
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#106
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For a service rifle round, 7.62x51 represented an absolute refusal to learn anything about small arms and combat from World War 2 on the part of the US military (and to ignore our own pre-war R&D, such as the Pedersen 276 round).
Had the people making decisions back in the late 40s/early 50s about such things had a shred of sense we'd have wound up with NATO using the British 280/7mm round that improved on the 7.92 Kurz concept rather than adopting a round that was just 30-06 reinvented with more modern powder and a consequently shortened case. It's what if's and such, but had US forces with FALs (or M14s or even EM-2s) chambered in 280 Brit gone head to head with the AK-47 in Southeast Asia, I doubt 5.56mm would have ever turned up as a military cartridge. It's appearance had a lot to do with the hardware guys dropping the ball so utterly with the 7.62x51/M14 combo that it opened the way for advocates of pure theory to jump into the game, from which we got the SCHV idea and the resultant 5.56x45 round (and 5.45x39, eventually). |
#107
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Unfortunately the military is just as much a victim of "what's fashionable" as anybody else.
When all the scientists gushed about the wonderous effects of lightweight, small calibre, high velocity rounds, they were telling the military exactly what the military wanted to hear at that point in time - the rifle would be the most effective force multiplier on the battlefield because these new bullets will make it so. That is to say, the concept was that the new SCHV rounds would cause hydrostatic shock which would completely incapacitate the enemy soldier, not kill him. Then his comrades would be out of the fight as they carried him away from the area. In this way you removed not just one soldier but possibly another two to four and you created a greater drain on rear area resources as they tended the wounded. The reality is that the individual soldier's rifle is way down on the list for causing enemy casualties. On a conventional battlefield, artillery & aerial bombing and explosives/fragmentation such as grenades cause the greatest number of casualties. In irregular warfare the enemy often ignores their casualties and continues to fight rather than tend the wounded. When you get to low level conflict such as urban fighting, then the individual soldier/rifle* combo can really come into its own and I think what it really needs is a round that will injure the enemy to a point where the enemy stops fighting or it kills him outright. * rifle, carbine, smg or whatever individual weapon. 7.62mmN works, 7.62mmS works, 5.56mm works but it does seem that the projectile weight and cartridge length of the 7.62mmS suit that role better than the other rounds I mentioned. I'm not saying it's the best, just that the intermediate cartridge is probably better served by having a heavier projectile than 5.56mm or 5.45mm offer. It's interesting to note that the Soviets/Russians developed the 9x39mm round to provide a heavier projectile for the close range combat of urban warfare because they weren't satisfied with the 5.45mm nor the 7.62x39mm cartridge for that role. |
#108
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The 7.62N is a great round for a GPMG, and even Sharpshooting, but as a battlefield round, its a bit much. Where as the SCHV is perhaps a little bit on the not enough. The 7.62S is a great round in theory, and even in practice to a degree, but the handicaps of the AK47 lets it down. And yes, the .276 Pederson was a fantastic round, and to be fair, the .280 British was perhaps the best round to come out in the post war period. Its a shame it didn't take - and the US deserves the blame for that. But then, yet again, after a major war, Small Arms Designers returned to the .270-.280 size, only to lose out to something else. Seeing the same thing now - 6.8mm is .270. Sometimes I don't think we will ever learn... ![]()
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#109
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#110
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Drifting off a little but still somewhat on topic - this is one for people who put their hate on the SA80/L85.
![]() This news article is over a year old but it seemed to have been missed outside the UK. For anyone who still thinks the L85A2 is junk because of the problems suffered by the L85A1, the following story shows that it is one tough piece of kit. ![]() Soldier reunited with gun that saved his life Wednesday 16th December 2009, 11:30AM GMT. Express & Star news website Hero Black Country soldier Luke Cole has been reunited with the rifle that saved his life in battle. The SA 80 rifle took three bullets that otherwise would have killed the 24-year-old West Midland Territorial Army Private in a battle that claimed the lives of two comrades and won him the Military Cross. The first 7.62 mm Kalashnikov round hit the weapon head on, narrowly missing the barrel and tearing apart the bodywork, while the second blew the sight off and the third smashed into the side, ripping through the inside of the gun and blasting out of the pistol grip. Miraculously none struck Pte Cole, already wounded twice in the battle, and last night he saw the remains of the weapon for the first time since it saved his life in the Taliban ambush two years ago. The rifle still worked and Pte Cole, from Bradmore, continued to shoot with it for a further hour as he lay trapped in the killing field. And the rifle that fired 360 rounds during the fire fight will now serve as a constant reminder of the bravery shown by Pte Cole in the battle near Garmsir in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. It has pride of place at the HQ of the 4th Battalion The Mercian Regiment in Fallings Park, Wolverhampton where he was based and will hang on the wall of the bar that last night was renamed The Cole in his honour. Former forklift truck engineer Pt Cole said: “It is a shock to see the state it is in. It makes you realise how heavy the firing was. It saved my life. Any of those three bullets would have killed me instantly if it had not taken the blows. “When you remember that I had the rifle braced on my shoulder at the time and was sitting up you realise those rounds would have hit me in the head or throat.” Pte Cole was on a six-month tour of duty with the regular army 2 Mercian Regiment when he was hit in the stomach and leg, losing five inches of thigh bone, during the attack in September 2007. The former Smestow School pupil was on his last mission before redeployment. Original post http://www.expressandstar.com/latest...aved-his-life/ but I've pretty much just copied and pasted it all here. |
#111
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Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon. Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series. |
#112
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British desighn combined with German engineering. Makes for a nice combo.
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Better to reign in hell, than to serve in heaven. |
#113
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#114
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Too bad there are no civ sale semi auto versions in the US.
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#115
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Probably would have paid for the L85A2 development ten years ago.
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#116
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First time I saw the L85 I couldn't beleive how small it was!
When I did rifle drill with the SLR, I could stand at parade rest with the butt on the ground, my right arm slightly curled and my hand on the foresight, ie with about 10" of the barrel in front of my hand and wrist. Rifle drill with the L85? At parade rest, with my arm straight, I could just reach the end of the barrel. No wonder they made the clever 3-part strap so you could wear it everywhere! |
#117
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as far as people saying 5.56mm isn't potent enough i know for fact it drop a decent sized deer at 100M with one aimed shot. (yes i was useing SS109 green tip ammunition)
![]() don't tell range control about it though. i told them the deer ran in front of my target while i was trying to qualify. tasted good too.
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the best course of action when all is against you is to slow down and think critically about the situation. this way you are not blindly rushing into an ambush and your mind is doing something useful rather than getting you killed. |
#118
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6x45........... all the militar(ies) have to do is switch barrels. 80gr FMJ out of a 14.5" barrel at about 2600-2700 fps with better terminal ballistics and energy.
Just my 2 cents.
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Max M. "aka Moose" |
#119
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#120
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- C.
__________________
Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson |
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