Announcement from Free League Publishing

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as pushy, or generate peer pressure of any kind. Whether or not to support any given Kickstarter is a personal decision.

-

My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.

The following is not an apology for my post but an explanation to why I made that particular post.
My post was to express my irritation at the way in which one poster was encouraging us to support the kickstarter.
At best the method used was simple peer group pressure, at worst it comes across as very near to emotional blackmail. I tend to have a negative reaction to people who try that trick due to having to deal with people in the past who tried emotional blackmail to get what they wanted.

You can trust that the last person I would expect to advance the cause of anything is someone who styles themselves 'StainlessSteelCynic.' Sorry I didn't provide that disclaimer before, but please know that you are off the hook for now and forevermore.

I'd ask that in the future, you refer to what I'm calling Olefin's rule - "And if people dont like what I post - then they are free to read something else ..."

Now if you will excuse me, I need to update my Ignore List.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Spartan-117

You can trust that the last person I would expect to advance the cause of anything is someone who styles themselves 'StainlessSteelCynic.' Sorry I didn't provide that disclaimer before, but please know that you are off the hook for now and forevermore.

I'd ask that in the future, you refer to what I'm calling Olefin's rule - "And if people dont like what I post - then they are free to read something else ..."

Now if you will excuse me, I need to update my Ignore List.

Sure, no worries mate, best of luck to you

[Ewan]

Fan produced sourcebooks etc will be a mixed bag as some people may want to push their own agenda on what the game should be.

Both the Korea and East Africa sourcebooks and the Rooks Gambit adventures are excellent examples of what can be achieved.

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service. Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

[Tegyrius]

Originally Posted by Ewan

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service.

Thanks for the interest! I'm not ruling it out but I, at least, don't have anything else like that in the pipeline today (I'm currently dealing with a looming deadline on some contract work for Onyx Path and my next T2k project is likely to be something other than vehicles).

The LAV-25 was unique in that it's an iconic vehicle in the game, but its T2k production and deployment were widely divergent from its real-world history. This allowed me some flexibility in describing its combat history and the doctrine around its use. I couldn't do that as easily with something like the Bradley or the BTR series. Having said that... I do have a few other ideas for possible future works, but most of them wouldn't be as iconic as the LAV-25.

(Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the LAV-25 project didn't get crushed by the weight of grognards telling me I got the doctrine and unit organization wrong.)

Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

Huh. I didn't think anyone actually downloaded and read that one (or the Czech setting sourcebook).

- C.

[Ewan]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Huh. I didn't think anyone actually downloaded and read that one (or the Czech setting sourcebook).

- C.

Yes I downloaded it a good number of years ago and was really pleased with the number of British vehicles in it and the British units in the Czech sourcebook.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Despite the bad rep given to many of us here, I think some of you would be surprised at how accepting we have been of the various books etc. etc. such as the Czech vehicle book. From what I recall, quite a few people were interested in it.

[Tegyrius]

Thank you, gentlemen.

@SSC - while I am quite cynical about this forum's overall culture and the reception 2013 received here, my comment in this case was meant at face value. The Czech setting sourcebook received a good reception, now that I look back at its release thread, but there was literally zero comment on the release of Czech Your Engine. I always figured no one cared, which is part of why it took me another ten years to produce anything else of significant size for this game line.

- C.

[sellanraa]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.

Echoing Rae, I know my post was to express my enthusiasm that this game is getting any fresh attention. I really have no stake in whether anyone supports or doesn't support the new edition. So if my post was a part of this feeling of being pressured to support, I also apologize.

[Jason Weiser]

Ok all, am speaking as moderator now. Nothing's gotten out of hand, yet, but let's not think telling folks how to or how not to spend their hard earned cash is a good thing, ok? And let's please watch the tone? I know we're all concerned about where the game might or might not go, but that's no reason to stop being civil with each other.

Other than that, carry on.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Ewan

Fan produced sourcebooks etc will be a mixed bag as some people may want to push their own agenda on what the game should be.

Both the Korea and East Africa sourcebooks and the Rooks Gambit adventures are excellent examples of what can be achieved.

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service. Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

That is exactly my concern with fan produced material - at the very least they should have a process to have it vetted before hand. I.e. I didnt just publish my sourcebook on drivethrurpg.com

I sent it to Marc who reviewed it and told me that some changes were needed to make it canon, that there had to be certain copyright statements, some general appearance and layout changes (i.e. he wanted a different font size and spacing changes). I made the changes sent it back and it was approved.

If they will be depending on fan canon - especially given its a new timeline and new Twilight War - then that needs to be taken into account. As well as making sure those with agendas dont make something that is wildly out of sync with the actual official canon.

That was one thing Marc made clear when I started to submit it - that it had to follow the canon if it was going to be published as an official release and that no matter my feelings on Howling Wilderness or other releases that those were canon - but that I could expand the canon wherever possible as long as it didnt directly conflict with it.

I hope that similar rules are put in place and vetting procedures so that we can get good quality fan canon for everyone's enjoyment - even to things such as please use this font, use this spacing, use this layout, etc. - and I mean vetted by Tomas and Chris

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.

My post was intended to suggest that people give Free League a chance rather than prejudging something before it's been released. Giving them a chance means just that - don't dismiss something out of hand if you haven't even seen it yet and you only have three pages of the product to go on. There was no suggestion that support should be financial. That's quite obviously a decision for each individual to make for themselves.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

To clear the air somewhat, I'll restate my thoughts on all this, that is to say that I am actually excited for the 4th edition release but I have no desire to use the rules system.

I will probably buy 4th edition for the world background and adventures but I have decided that I will wait until the product hits the shelves before making any purchases. So no, I won't be supporting the kickstarter and with the money that's already been pledged, they are already successful (I mean seriously, fully funded in seven minutes. SEVEN MINUTES! - we have already missed out on any part of helping Free League reach their funding goal because it was reached before most of us started making posts about it here).

As for the person I was commenting on, I didn't want to name names but it's definitely a situation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Suffice to say that this person has implied that I'm being added to their ignore list so if that isn't you, then I will assure you that my post was not directed at you and that I never felt any peer pressure from you (or this forum in general) to support the kickstarter.

From this point on I don't intend to revisit this specific event but if any of you feel I might be crossing the line, please feel free to give me a gentle reminder, something along the lines of "Pull ya stupid head in you tactless twat!", that'll work

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Tegyrius

Thank you, gentlemen.

@SSC - while I am quite cynical about this forum's overall culture and the reception 2013 received here, my comment in this case was meant at face value. The Czech setting sourcebook received a good reception, now that I look back at its release thread, but there was literally zero comment on the release of Czech Your Engine. I always figured no one cared, which is part of why it took me another ten years to produce anything else of significant size for this game line.

- C.

Okay, no follow up comments at all. Yes that's quite unusual, I can understand why you'd feel as though nobody was interested, I mean, there's absolutely nothing to gauge the level of interest, no feedback. That's a bit of a head shaker at best and incredibly frustrating and dismaying at worst.

As for 2013, I think some of the discontent was not because of "changing the game", not because of the rules or even the game world itself, but from the attitude of the person in charge. By that I mean things like the demand for proof of being in the military before being allowed to contribute military information, forum replies that weren't from direct personal experience would be judged as not applicable and so on.
And it did feel as though it was a demand and that you would be excluded if you weren't "one of the gang".

Myself and a few other Australian ex-military gamers that I know of were interested in contributing but the demand to prove our credentials gave us quite a problem because (as I am sure it is with most nations) it is forbidden to send military documents to foreign nationals. To do so would require applying for security clearances and so on and it was much more trouble than it was worth.

I believe that is what soured a lot of people on 2013

[Hybris]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

I have informed Tomas about this Forum, BUT for the moment everyone wants a piece of the Tomas Pie everywhere. So far the best answers from FL comes from the kickstarter.

[Hybris]

Free league has been doing kickstarters for a number of years now and it appears to be doing well for them. They always (it appears so) has things sorted out before the kickstarter launches.So that never over promise on content that are not EASILY added to the game /book.That means no or little delivery delays and its of course helps when the printing is don in the EU instead of china.


https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fria_Ligan

As you can see they rotate somewhat among their product line so i think its quite possible that when the remake of the original game are done ( the vistula campaign etc) and maybe some small swedish things added to spice things up we will see a hiatus when they prepare the next round before a new launch takes place (probably on kickstarter) . In the "downtime" we will see other FL games and supplements so when next round comes around for T2K more and newer backers will arrive and wonder what's all the hubba is all about.I only guessing here but that's the way it been so far and i don't think this will change. Its already a success for this small niche of a game and by the kickstarter comments its clear that i'm not the focus group for this game. But i would gladly take the art the clear nice Twilight 2K feeling and enjoy the reading. I haven't played any of the FL rules for any of their games so im on for all the fluff we will get. Im mean its a rpg after all so i will wing it to my taste.That said, ofcourse i will help them if a can and They want it. Its a FL game and they will try to do their best they can with this IP. I'm quite sure it NEVER can be as good as i want it but that the way it is. There is an huge amount with sources these days about the cold war and beyond. like the most of you (i presume) i have information to create a whole ww3 gaming world on my own but i'm happy that someone else its doing it. That's how i managed to keep playing for the last 10 years or so and if this game doesn't suit me i can continue.But i wish the the best because its good to see so many younger gamers out there starting to appraise military history. To be continued....

[Olefin]

Just got this -
All goals achieved - Now, we do have a few more stretch goals up our sleeve, but we need a little more time to finalize them.

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

US Army, Soviet Army, NATO Army Sourcebooks - use the V2 books and update them to V4 - would be a very quick and inexpensive way to immediately get new material and have them be official - this is a good quick win

A Swedish Army Sourcebook with specific Swedish military equipment - wouldnt have to be a full sourcebook but instead a supplement - Paul Mulcahy has a lot of Swedish equipment already on his site with V2.2. specs - you could use them, update to V4 and get that issued with the base game - www.pmulcahy.com

The first full length adventure module as part of the initial kickstarter effort so that you get that as well

[comped]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Just got this -
All goals achieved - Now, we do have a few more stretch goals up our sleeve, but we need a little more time to finalize them.

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

US Army, Soviet Army, NATO Army Sourcebooks - use the V2 books and update them to V4 - would be a very quick and inexpensive way to immediately get new material and have them be official - this is a good quick win

A Swedish Army Sourcebook with specific Swedish military equipment - wouldnt have to be a full sourcebook but instead a supplement - Paul Mulcahy has a lot of Swedish equipment already on his site with V2.2. specs - you could use them, update to V4 and get that issued with the base game - www.pmulcahy.com

The first full length adventure module as part of the initial kickstarter effort so that you get that as well

Sourcebook goals in general would be great. Either updates or wholly new ones - which, surely, they can contract out to people while working on the main edition... They have the resources and the knowledge base (here and elsewhere) to do so.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by comped

Sourcebook goals in general would be great. Either updates or wholly new ones - which, surely, they can contract out to people while working on the main edition... They have the resources and the knowledge base (here and elsewhere) to do so.

I agree on the sourcebooks - or at the least an order of battle that shows what units are in the area depicted in the game's maps

Also US/Soviet/NATO sourcebooks would help those doing the fan canon releases - i.e. thats the base info we would need to make it as accurate as possible for encounters and scenarios

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I agree on the sourcebooks - or at the least an order of battle that shows what units are in the area depicted in the game's maps

At a bear minimum that is very needed. We should need to know the bigger formations on the maps and their relative strengths and maybe a short blurb about their status.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

I think I feel a poll coming on...

-

[Olefin]

go for it Raellus - definitely need that poll for Tomas

[Rainbow Six]

I'm inclined to suggest a Survivor's Guide to the USA. I presume it's an area that would be of interest to many consumers, so could be expected to be financially successful for the company and gamers would - hopefully - get use of out of it.

Now, creating a Survivor's Guide to the entire USA is likely to be something of a gargantuan task, which, if not done well, could result in something of a backlash. That being the case, perhaps FL could split the US into regions, north east, south east, west coast, etc, etc. They could then release regional sourcebooks over a period of time, maybe once every three to four months, thus alleviating the time pressure to churn out a tome on the entire US in one go.

That would probably take at least eighteen months - two years to complete (I'm guessing you'd probably want to split the US into what, six or so regions?), and would represent a continuous stream of fresh material coming out of the pipeline on a regular basis.

As an aside to that, perhaps they could release adventure modules to use with the sourcebooks on a possibly less ambitious scale, i.e. one module for every two sourcebooks. And mix it up a bit. Release two US Sourcebooks then release a Middle East Sourcebook, then another US then one based on a part of Europe.

While it's not my particular thing, 'gun guides' (for a lack of a better term) have featured in every version including 2013 so presumably there's a demand there and could probably be produced relatively quickly.

[comped]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I'm inclined to suggest a Survivor's Guide to the USA. I presume it's an area that would be of interest to many consumers, so could be expected to be financially successful for the company and gamers would - hopefully - get use of out of it.

Now, creating a Survivor's Guide to the entire USA is likely to be something of a gargantuan task, which, if not done well, could result in something of a backlash. That being the case, perhaps FL could split the US into regions, north east, south east, west coast, etc, etc. They could then release regional sourcebooks over a period of time, maybe once every three to four months, thus alleviating the time pressure to churn out a tome on the entire US in one go.

That would probably take at least eighteen months - two years to complete (I'm guessing you'd probably want to split the US into what, six or so regions?), and would represent a continuous stream of fresh material coming out of the pipeline on a regular basis.

As an aside to that, perhaps they could release adventure modules to use with the sourcebooks on a possibly less ambitious scale, i.e. one module for every two sourcebooks. And mix it up a bit. Release two US Sourcebooks then release a Middle East Sourcebook, then another US then one based on a part of Europe.

While it's not my particular thing, 'gun guides' (for a lack of a better term) have featured in every version including 2013 so presumably there's a demand there and could probably be produced relatively quickly.

Most of Western Europe could use an overhaul as well (UK especially). And that's before we get into parts of the world untouched by other editions...

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by comped

Most of Western Europe could use an overhaul as well (UK especially). And that's before we get into parts of the world untouched by other editions...

Yeah...funnily enough I know a guy who wrote a 150 page Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK once. I should maybe speak to him about that.

Beyond that, you're absolutely right. I'm really just trying to think of what should be the priority in terms of what's going to be most popular, and I'm going to hazard a guess that there's going to be a large proportion of American gamers who might want to run campaigns in the US rather than, say, the Benelux countries so they can follow later - or be covered as fan pieces (admittedly, that's all pure speculation on my part).

[comped]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

Yeah...funnily enough I know a guy who wrote a 150 page Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK once. I should maybe speak to him about that.

Beyond that, you're absolutely right. I'm really just trying to think of what should be the priority in terms of what's going to be most popular, and I'm going to hazard a guess that there's going to be a large proportion of American gamers who might want to run campaigns in the US rather than, say, the Benelux countries so they can follow later - or be covered as fan pieces (admittedly, that's all pure speculation on my part).

I'm guessing that beyond Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries (except perhaps Iceland/Greenland) will be propriety for their main market. The US would be great though, even if it's something that could be split up into quite a few books, and be an obvious lead on to Canada, Mexico, Central America, and elsewhere...

[Raellus]

Guys, I don't think we're going to see any big ticket items in the new batch of stretch goals. Why give a full adventure module away when you can sell it a-la carte i nstead? In other words, it's cool what we're putting together a wish list, but I don't see most of the ideas mentioned so far becoming stretch goals.

I'm new to Kickstarter backing, but if I understand correctly, backers automatically receive the unlocked stretch-goal products. That's why I don't see things like regional source books, gear books, guides to various national military forces, etc. being included as stretch-goals. FL would be giving too much away, and needs to keep some products in pocket for future sales if they want this product line to have any longevity.

I recommend we think a little smaller when coming up with ideas for new stretch-goals.

I'll put together one poll for proposed stretch-goals and another in the form of a wish list for future big releases (like source-books, for example).

-

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Guys, I don't think we're going to see any big ticket items in the new batch of stretch goals.

Yeah, good point, I was getting a little ahead of myself in terms of kick starter stretch goals.

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by comped

I'm guessing that beyond Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries (except perhaps Iceland/Greenland) will be propriety for their main market. The US would be great though, even if it's something that could be split up into quite a few books, and be an obvious lead on to Canada, Mexico, Central America, and elsewhere...

My book will include Iceland, albeit a bit shorter because it is smaller, less population and less involved in the war.

[Olefin]

Well we know they included one more scenario that is unlocked

STRETCHGOAL 20: “THE CHILDREN’S CRUSADE” SCENARIO LOCATION – UNLOCKED!
If we reach this goal, we will expand the Referee’s Manual with another scenario location, called The Children’s Crusade, written by Chris Lites. This stretch goal is both digital and physical.

The last two Stretch Goals are ones I hope we hit - especially the new version of the Black Madonna