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#121
10-03-2011, 07:10 AM
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I don't believe it. 24 hours ago there's no way in hell I'd have thought it even remotely possible, but it's true.
I'm GMing an Aliens game this week end, f2f with at least 5 players, all willing, able and ready to go toe to toe with those lovable acid for blood critters who only want to be our friends! Excited? Who me? 
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem 
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#123
10-03-2011, 08:39 AM
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I love me some Aliens but it's got plot-holes big enough to drive a Conestoga class cruiser through.
1 - why in the hell did they all bunch up in the atmo. processor? Why did they not go by bounding advance for crying out loud? Hicks sees the acid damage and says straight up "looks like they bagged one of Ripley's bad guys in here". They KNOW what they're in for! 2 - The Colonial Marines Technical Manual tells us the aforementioned Conestoga class can carry "up to 90 passengers and crew, with as many as 2000 more [hypersleep chambers] in the cargo bays". Aaaand twelve marines and one APC went? WTF? That's like sending an Arleigh Burke class missile frigate out with a bridge crew and four marines. I just can't see how/why that would be done. 3 - the never-ending question of how/why the facehugger eggs got on in the first place, which triggered 3. The eggs are only activated by the presence of someone leaning close to them. The queen tore loose from the ovipositor, and even if she'd "laid" them in the landing strut well of the dropship, how'd the facehuggers hatch and find Ripley. 4 - Really, guys? EVERYBODY leaves the ship? When Burke has absolutely established that the critters are on the ground? Irrespective of his actual motives, he tells Ripley when she says "We're going to wipe them out, not bring back, not study, right?" "That's the plan." - she briefed Gorman on the danger of these things, Burke (acting as the good friend) obviously backed her - but everybody came down. WTF??? I love Aliens, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of practical problems with the movie.
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#124
10-03-2011, 12:23 PM
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#125
10-03-2011, 01:36 PM
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I’ll preface my response to the “holes” in the Aliens plot by expressing an idea I failed to get across during the discussion about The Hurt Locker. Fiction is not a documentary. Aliens is a Vietnam film until the surviving Marines escape from the atmosphere processor, but it’s not a Vitenam documentary (obviously). As with all literature, events and characters are meant to stand for something and somebody. I’m sure we’ve all seen the disclaimer at the end of a film claiming that similarities between the characters and events of the film and real people and events are entirely coincidental. Although the primary motivator for putting said advisory at the end of the film is to forestall tort suits, there is a literary idea that one story stands for many; therefore, none of the characters are supposed to be exactly like real people because the characters are supposed to represent archetypes. Why archetypes? So the audience’s ability to see something recognizable and be drawn in thereby is maximized. This is good art, and it’s good marketing.
The answer to questions 1, 2, and 4 is hubris, combined with a power structure that puts people with little experience or little common sense in positions of power. It might not have made sense in a vacuum for everyone to go into the atmosphere processor, for a tiny fraction of the potential crew of the transport to go on the mission, or for everyone to go to the surface. One of the main themes of the film, though, is that in a hierarchy decisions get made at every level according to the viewpoints and needs of the people at that level. By the time all of these decisions reach the people on the ground, the effect borders on insanity. This was true in Vietnam, and it has been true in Iraq. I’d put my left testicle on the table that it’s true in Afghanistan, too. The Company doesn’t believe there’s a real problem on LV426. The scene in which Ripley tries to defend her actions before a Company board of inquiry spells out of the Company’s attitudes very effectively. They don’t believe her story. They don’t want to believe her story. They think they have a good grip on things. Later, we find out that Burke has sent the colonists to look for the original crashed ship on his own initiative. Therefore, when Burke says that the loss of communication with the colony on LV426 could be a result of a “downed transmitter”, he’s expressing the viewpoint of the appropriate officials at the Company. One is forced to wonder whether Ripley’s inclusion in the mission is entirely the doing of some quick talking on the part of Burke, who is trying to cover his fourth point of contact in the event his little venture went sour. Let’s suppose, then, that the Marines get sent out on the Company’s behalf. The Company doesn’t believe in the Aliens. The Company is checking off a standard procedure box. This attitude is transmitted to the government, who send a bare-bones mission to check their own box. People cost money, so a very small force under a butterbar gets sent. Before we say “That’s crazy! That would never happen!” let us think of a few of the decisions that were made in Iraq and Afghanistan that were based on keeping costs down, supporting other priorities, or just plain oversight. We sent 130,000 to Iraq instead of 350,000, and we got rid of the Army and the police. There was no centralized effort to train a new Afghan police force until Obama was elected. I won’t belabor the point. Keeping with the Vietnam theme, units in Vietnam were woefully understrength. The small size of the force sent to LV426 is a reference to the inadequacy of the available manpower. We should remember that Aliens is fiction, not a documentary. The small size of the command that hits the ground is symbolic of the shortage of manpower in rifle platoons and companies in Vietnam. Similarly, the fact that a mission like this is placed under the command of someone so junior is a condemnation of the power structure of the armed forces and the class consciousness of the military. Gorman has forty some-odd simulated missions, but the drop on LV426 is his second live drop. It’s good that he’s been trained, but it’s awful that a man with so little real world experience is put in charge of anything like this. However, we have a good idea how important the Marines think this mission is based on who they put in charge. Again, the specter of Vietnam rears its ugly head. I don’t know enough about the training and experience of USMC lieutenants in Vietnam, but I know the Army lieutenants were not what was needed. Still, an officer has to be in charge, so let’s scrape one off the bottom of the barrel and give him a token force so we can check the box on this little sidebar matter at LV426. The short-handedness of the mission explains why everybody comes down. There isn’t anybody to leave upstairs. Moreover, as we have seen it’s not strictly necessary to leave someone up top. The approach of the Marines to the atmosphere processor can be explained by the presence of the newbie lieutenant. This is the same guy who had all of the ammunition collected before sending his people into the lion’s den. Utter foolishness, but understandable foolishness given the discovery regarding the heat exchangers. Gorman’s a great character in that we can very easily see and understand the conflicting forces at work in him. I’m not going to defend or even address the presence of the facehuggers that lead to #3. That’s another story for another time. Honestly, I don’t see any of the “holes” mentioned as holes. People in their various functions and capacities make decisions based on their perceptions of reality. Everyone down the chain has to live with these decisions. I witnessed insane monkey-ass bullshit daily in Iraq. Everyone from the President on downward made decisions and created policy that drove a reality on the ground that we all felt was markedly deficient. If I had to review my own journal, Adagio for Strings, I would say that as a work of fiction it ranks below anything done by Tom Clancy or Harold Coyle because the levels of stupidity, insanity, and ineptitude are too great to be borne by suspension of disbelief. Aliens gives us the tools we need to understand why the characters who don’t have any dialogue in the film make the decisions that lead to the material we see on the screen. We’re supposed to say “WTF?” because that’s the human experience at war.
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#126
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
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Another point is that the Colonial Marines Technical Manual was written well, well after the movie by a fairly talented and motivated fan. It's a damn fine publication, but in no way is it the movie.
For all we know, the Sulaco only held a single platoon worth of marines, one half of which was deleted for the mission to allow carriage of Ripley and Burke, which would explain why there was a spare dropship aboard. If the ship was big enough to carry thousands of troops, would the marines really have had to carry out all the pre-mission checks and loading themselves, or would there have been specialists available as you might see on an aircraft carrier? The size of the mess hall we see in the early stages of the movie is also an indication of the limited size and carrying capacity of the Sulaco. Now, as for the bunching in the atmosphere processor, it's human nature to group together like that in unfamiliar situations. Totally against tactical common sense, true, but those were also some very tight areas. My guess is that if they'd spread out it may have actually worked against them given the aliens could have picked them off one by one at their leisure. The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me. I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors. Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#127
10-03-2011, 05:32 PM
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Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting my foot down and saying "No I'm right, you're all wrong"...I just think that James Cameron is a better storyteller than student of things military  Quote:
The 3 eggs on the dropship is something I don't buy either. The whole 3rd movie was a disappointment as far as I'm concerned. Sure there were some nice highlights, but the overall concept and storyline just didn't' hang together for me. I had the opportunity to read the original draft for the 3rd movie a couple of years back - COMPLETELY different. Set on a space station, Ripely was injured early on and in a coma most of the duration, Hicks lives and becomes the hero and I can't remember what happened to Newt (survived I think). Bishop also got a run as well, but again I can't remember details. Ends in an evac of the station by a handful of survivors. Some of the ideas were a bit dodgy, but as it was only a first draft....[/QUOTE] Yeah, that was cyberpunk author William Gibson's treatment of an Alien3 draft. His take was that VERY early on, Ripley is injured by trigger happy Chinese soldiers who board the Sulaco when it, on autopilot, drifts into Chinese "space". They find Bishop and IIRC the inside of his hypersleep chamber is described as being like a terrarium - beaded with water and steam. As soon as they crack it open, its revealed an egg had developed in there (the how and why is explained later) and it is taken off. The Chinese rebuild Bishop, Ripley (comatose due to the weapons fire) is put in the infirmary, Newt is stuck in an office somewhere and Hicks bands together with some less-than-communistically-correct soldiers to rescue her once it comes clear that due to some around-fucking by Chinese scientists the Xenomorphs can now reproduce by virus. If you get the Alien "goo" on you, you'll turn in to one.
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#128
10-03-2011, 06:04 PM
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That draft was a bit out there, but still more believable than what ended up running with!
__________________
If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#129
10-03-2011, 06:07 PM
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“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#130
10-03-2011, 06:25 PM
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__________________
 "It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#131
10-03-2011, 06:29 PM
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__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#132
10-03-2011, 06:34 PM
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The Sulaco and it's sister vessels were probably pretty modular in their loadout. Maybe they can carry 2000 people in hypersleep if the entire drop ship bay and cargo areas are filled with hypersleep pods?
I think most of the blame for the feeble size of the force sent to LV426 can be laid on Burke. He and Weyland-Yutani Corporation clearly have enormous political and military influence. It was in their best interests to have a small team sent as it would be easier for Burke to manipulate the situation to his and WYC's advantage. Same reason that Gorman was assigned mission commander.
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"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#133
10-03-2011, 06:56 PM
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My interpretation of many of the holes in the Aliens film is that a lot of it was intentional. I think the movie is as much a commentary on the power of multi-national corporations as it is on the military mismanagement that led to our defeat in Vietnam. The company set the whole thing up. The corporation likely paid for the expedition so such a small force was justified to the military on the basis of cost. The company aslo wanted maximum control on the ground so they made sure an inexperienced officer (likely with poor marks from whatever academy produces Colonial Marine officers) in charge. Heck, the company may even have had a hand in choosing the "platoon" that was sent- they seemed to have their share of screw ups. I suppose the corporate influence on the military theme could have also been a commentary on the Vietnam situation as well.
On a sidenote, I believe Ripley is one of the most positive female role models in all of film- her and Clarice Starling- and I'd like my daughter to see the film. Unfrotunately, my wife doesn't see this my way. I'm not sure what her problem is. SThe wife's not really a fan of either Aliens or Silence of the Lambs. It's either that or the fact that my daughter's only 4...
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 10-03-2011 at 07:13 PM.
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#134
10-03-2011, 07:29 PM
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It's show day here (well, actually Thursday to Saturday) and one of the players is coming straight from there still dressed in his Star Wars storm trooper armour.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem
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#135
10-03-2011, 07:32 PM
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#136
10-03-2011, 07:52 PM
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i use to have the official Aliens RPG book that was done, we ran it with our group back in the day. The company went to the LV426 and found the wrecked starship full of eggs since the processor going nova had only destroyed the colony centre. Our characters were mostly US Army Rangers and a couple US Space Force (space navy) personnel who had been assigned to a colony planet where the company set up a topsecret lab that ended up becoming a hive. the entire game was our characters trying to protect the colonists until they could be evacuated from the planet, and the planet could be sterlized with nuking from orbit.
The planet was an agricultural colony full of genetically bred cattle, sheep and other live stock that became perfect for use as incubators by the Aliens...
__________________
Fuck being a hero. Do you know what you get for being a hero? Nothing! You get shot at. You get a little pat on the back, blah blah blah, attaboy! You get divorced... Your wife can't remember your last name, your kids don't want to talk to you... You get to eat a lot of meals by yourself. Trust me kid, nobody wants to be that guy. I do this because there is nobody else to do it right now. Believe me if there was somebody else to do it, I would let them do it. There's not, so I'm doing it.
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#137
10-03-2011, 08:42 PM
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I got to play a couple sessions of the Aliens RPG about 10 years ago. Four USCM fireteams from the Draknor boarding a derelict ship. Just to tell you what kind of players these were, we suffered casualties *before* we met the aliens!
Due to clumsiness and conflicting orders, mostly.  It was fun though, I wished we could have finished it.
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#138
10-04-2011, 01:47 AM
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Anyone else here a fan of the Badass of the Week website? Here is the Badass look at Ellen Ripley: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/ripley.html
__________________
"It is better to be feared than loved" - Nicolo Machiavelli
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#139
10-04-2011, 03:29 AM
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Alien 3 gets a lot of flak (not unjustifiably) because it is a flawed movie. Unfortunately there was constant 'creative' interference from the studio during filming and the movie that director David Fincher actually filmed was, in the end, butchered during the editing and final production to make the movie you all know and loathe.
The original concept for Fincher's movie was that the prisoners on the planet had basically formed a monastic society to cope with their life imprisonment. They had become religious and devout in their obedience to their faith and the feel of the movie was supposed to convey a sense of monasticism, the mythic qualities of gothic cathedrals and the organization of an ordered lifestyle that is upset by the arrival the 'outsider' and the chaos she brings. Ripley's arrival brought with her the fear of the serpent being released into the "monks" Garden of Eden (note that in the pre-Christian beliefs of Europe, the serpent and dragon were one and the same, although not specifically associated with evil, so the references in the movie to the dragon can be explained - unfortunately this is lost in the theatrical release). Ripley brings with her the Alien, i.e. the dragon, the evil that will bring chaos and destroy the life the prisoners have been leading. If you can see the 'Assembly Cut', a lot of the removed footage is restored and more of what Fincher wanted to achieve can be seen, it does bring a different feel to the movie. Last edited by StainlessSteelCynic; 10-04-2011 at 03:31 AM. Reason: clarifying a point
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#140
06-01-2012, 11:27 AM
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So who else is excited for Prometheus (opening here in the U.S. next Friday)?
I get goose bumps just watching the TV trailer. I'm preparing myself by watching Alien today. It's been a while.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module
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#141
06-01-2012, 11:45 AM
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Also: http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Colonia...pr_product_top IF YOU DON'T OWN A COPY BUY ONE RIGHT NOW.
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#142
06-01-2012, 11:59 AM
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The trailer looks brilliant but the missus doesn't like sci fi films or horror films so the chances of getting her to go and see a film that combines the two are fairly remote. I'll probably wait for the DVD...
Interesting that it's not released in the US until next week. It's released here today. I always thought films (especially big Hollywood blockbusters) were generally released over there first.
__________________
Author of the unofficial and strictly non canon Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the United Kingdom
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#143
06-01-2012, 12:03 PM
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I'm anxious. Sequels and spin-offs often are written, directed, and/or produced by people who don't understand why previous work worked.
__________________
“We’re not innovating. We’re selectively imitating.” June Bernstein, Acting President of the University of Arizona in Tucson, November 15, 1998.
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#144
06-01-2012, 01:14 PM
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__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module Last edited by Raellus; 06-01-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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#145
06-01-2012, 02:04 PM
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Charlize Theron!!!!!!!! (but I probably won't watch it until much later) Last edited by boogiedowndonovan; 06-01-2012 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Charlize Theron!!!!!!!!
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#146
06-01-2012, 04:01 PM
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- C.
__________________
Clayton A. Oliver • Occasional RPG Freelancer Since 1996 Author of The Pacific Northwest, coauthor of Tara Romaneasca, creator of several other free Twilight: 2000 and Twilight: 2013 resources, and curator of an intermittent gaming blog. It rarely takes more than a page to recognize that you're in the presence of someone who can write, but it only takes a sentence to know you're dealing with someone who can't. - Josh Olson
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#147
06-01-2012, 09:28 PM
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A couple thoughts from a relative newcomer of the board. I apologize for the timing, considering that things seem to have calmed down, but now seems to be the time to do so.
First, a little bit about me. I never played the T2k product line. I was brought aboard through Twilight 2013. Accordingly, I don't have a lot of the same mores regarding canon vs non-canon, unit dispositions throughout the timeline, and the like. I don't expect this to carry any weight - in fact, I would bet that it reduces my "authenticity" - but it illustrates my background. The tone on this forum is truly bizarre. People seem to be more interested in debating the nature of canon rather than simply cooking up their own versions and sharing them with others. I find the confrontational nature of the board absurd. I am twenty-four years old. I seem to gather that the crowd here is much older than I am, given the date of the original T2k and some of the life experiences that I've seen related to one another in posts. Why, then, can't we all get along? Is this anyone's first forum? This is a board about an exchange of ideas and creation of new material. Calling one another out about the canon status of various material is simply stupid. This is a work of fiction about a war that never occurred. If people need to be removed from the boards because of confrontational behavior, then I would submit that it be done immediately. I've spent a great deal of time on forums during my life. In my experience, people's personalities (perhaps "personas" is more accurate) do not change. Their troublesome personalities simply ebb and flow like a sine wave until something breaks. Given the tone, I would say that we are pretty close to something breaking. Also, someone please get Eddie to come back. He was one of the principle reasons that I perused this board, as he was on the 93 Games board. I enjoyed his no bullshit attitude and his experience in a field directly relevant to our alternate history pursuits. Thanks, DigTw0Grav3s (Earlydawn)
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#148
06-01-2012, 09:40 PM
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man what
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#149
06-01-2012, 09:56 PM
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Apologies; didn't see the older dates earlier in the thread. Thought that this thread was more recent, and that the arguments had spilled over into this one.
Nevertheless, I still feel like it's a pretty accurate reflection on a new guy's thoughts with regard to what's been going on lately. On the positive side, does this mean that Eddie has since come back?
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#150
06-02-2012, 10:40 AM
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I don't know but can we maybe discuss Aliens and so forth in this thread? And not site acrimony?
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