Just In: Osama is dead

[Targan]

I wasn't going to respond to dragoon500ly's characterisation of Islam but seeing as others are doing so I suppose I'd may as well.

There are fundamentalists in most religions, as well as very reasonable folk. I'm not personally religious but I don't begrudge others having faith. I do however get really p*ssed off at extremist and violent religious beliefs. And in my experience there are probably just as many Christian nutjobs as Muslim. Those freaks in the US that picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and scream on about America deserving to suffer for its sins are a great example.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Targan

I wasn't going to respond to dragoon500ly's characterisation of Islam but seeing as others are doing so I suppose I'd may as well.

There are fundamentalists in most religions, as well as very reasonable folk. I'm not personally religious but I don't begrudge others having faith. I do however get really p*ssed off at extremist and violent religious beliefs. And in my experience there are probably just as many Christian nutjobs as Muslim. Those freaks in the US that picket the funerals of fallen soldiers and scream on about America deserving to suffer for its sins are a great example.

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

As far as the only terrorist attack I ever escaped was performed by Christian, I can only agree. In 1988, over France, members a fundamentalist christian group launched a number of attacks in movie theaters showing "The last temptation of Christ". The first attack was made in a theater on St Michel square (Paris) and resulted in 14 people burnt to various degrees (I was supposed to be there and changed my mind while waiting in line, I was lucky that day). Another attack made one dead.

The most outrageous about this is that five people involved in the first attack were only condemned very lightly : jail with sursis (which means that they never ever got in jail) and a 70000$ fine (for all five). That fundamentalist group (AGRIF) is still in existence today. Yes I know justice is blind.

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

Exactly! This is all they are trying to achieve - cause more division, fragment the opposition and garner new recruits from more moderate members of their faith/political persuasion by making the opposition treat them badly.

Here in NI it has long been said that the greatest recruiter for the Republican movement was Bloody Sunday. Likewise, after the Remembrance Sunday bombing in Enniskillen, the Loyalist groups gained an influx of recruits. This was all as a reaction to the actions of 'the other side'.

Likewise it does no good to stereotype a religion, race or political movement, although this it is much easier to say this than stick to it. I've personally experienced the stereotyping of both sides of the troubles over here. When I was living here in Belfast I would automatically be perceived as Loyalist/Protestant because of the part of the city I lived in, where I went to school etc. By the same token, when I went to England to uni I ended up getting scooped under section 12 of the prevention of terrorism act on suspicion of Republican sympathies - long story, but essentially I got lifted for walking while Irish. Suffice to say I wasn't a terrorist of either side (my then girlfriend's Dad was a senior RUC officer) but it did get me to thinking a bit more about things - certainly had the police mistreated me in any way I could have become more sympathetic towards the Republican side. It’s hard to do, but please try and treat everyone as an individual and try not to buy into propaganda about them or their beliefs.

[Legbreaker]

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment. It was stated to me several times with all seriousness that Islam would take over the world by either stealth (conversions, etc) or force (full on military action, bombings and so on to kill all unbelievers). No preference was given for either and there was certainly no hesitation about the latter option.
It was the most nervous and uncomfortable two weeks of my life made even worse by them being armed, and me not.

[Abbott Shaull]

All I am going to say it doesn't matter if you believe is Jewish, a flavor of Christianity, or Muslim. Both Christianity and Muslim faith do discuss tolerance in their teaching of people who believe in other religions. They both also teach that you should try to convert the non-believers over to your religion in none violent mean.

The sad thing is population wise 1/5 or more depending on whose number you listen to is Muslim.

The sad thing lot of people who express they are of one of these three religions who express lot of hate. Regardless if it was in the past or the present. It all add fuel to the fire that keeps the hatred going.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Having spent two weeks in a small car with a "normal" muslim (his day job was used car salesman), I feel somwhat qualified to comment.

In fact, no : Testis unus, testis nullus. You had, however, an interesting experience that you wisely share. I had, for my part, numerous and much longer experiences with normal muslims and don't feel qualified at all.

I have friends in Tunisia, Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. I have met people (not firends this time) from all these countries plus a number from Pakistan and Asian muslim countries (not to talk of African muslim). One of my best friend is married to a Saudi (And I spent hours speaking with him about religion). I recently translated judicial material to help an english woman whose saudi husband stole her children. The lawyer, I and my ex-wife, had for our divorce was a Tunisian muslim. My step father has spent years in the muslim world. The public frenchman for whom I have the most respect is a muslim. Around my place, you have 13 muslim families (one fundamentalist, another one being fully successful with kids becoming lawyers, others being on the average, many being regular, some being a pain). I had met people from Harki, Berber and Arabic descent.

Still, I could brought up plenty of testimony, most contradictory. The only common ground between all these people is that, if they have faith, they won't tolarate that you attack the Coran. Actually, I have witnessed the same attitude from Christian and Jews.

Leg, If I had been you, I might have had a word with the police about the guy you met. If he went as far as what you describe (in his thinking), he could become dangerous or may be not.

[Legbreaker]

I forgot to mention he had been studying for years to be an Imam and knew the Qur'an backwards.
As an armed security guard he had been through the various police background checks too. He avoided coming out and saying anything specific, but the overall impression was that non-muslims were nothing more than animals unworthy of treatment as humans.

[Mohoender]

Then, you had a very interesting experience I never had with a fundamentalist muslim. From what you add here, that man is even more scary that what you say first hand.

The most impressive to me is that you could stand him two weeks. That qualifies you to comment fundamentalist but don't generalize to muslims.

[Legbreaker]

He most certainly did not come across as a fundamentalist in almost all ways. He backed up every statement with reasons and justifications which to many would have seemed quite reasonable.
But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

That's a point, LOL

[95th Rifleman]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

He most certainly did not come across as a fundamentalist in almost all ways. He backed up every statement with reasons and justifications which to many would have seemed quite reasonable.
But you're right, it was an exercise in EXTREME patience (the .38 on his belt probably had something to do with that though).

In my experience with American fundamentalists that they also back up every statement with reasons and justifications. I once spent several hours trapped with a rather sinister and scary American who proceeded to explain to me, in detail, how America is a country for Christians and that all gays, jews and muslims need to be converted or deported. This was in california which I am led to believe is one of the most liberal American states.

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

But as I said the vast majority of people, of any faith, just want to be left alone to live their lives. The problem is these people don't attract attention, they just go about their lives like the rest of us. The minority who preach violence and fundamentalism get all the screen time and so people associate them as the majority.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I think everyone can come up with personal, negaive experiences of other religions, hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

To me that is mind boggling. Of all the people in the world who should know better than that. Its like abused children who grow up to be child abusers themselves.

[headquarters]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

It's similar for us Brits, we suffered for decades from attacks by the IRA (and the reprisals by the loyalist paramilitaries like the UVF) both sides where Christian.

We need to be wary of falling into the trap of assuming all Muslims are the same, this is EXACTLY what the terrorists want. They want the west to turn on their moderate islamic popuations, they want the moderates to feel threatened and persecuted so that they will join the extremist mindset.

well put

[headquarters]

I still think the moderates will dominate in the end.

Sure we will have problems with religious factions - some due to circumstance and some due to the people in them being intolerant or nutjobs..

We have our share up here too, but luckily, so far, knock on wood, violence has been almost non existence save the odd bloodied nose.

I seem to see a change in people in general - when they become parents. Many -not all of course - soften their beliefs and focus more on whats closer to the heart.

As the old Norwegian poem says about fatherhood and peace-

for he who carries on his arm an irreplacable burden,
cannot murder

( it rhymes well in our beautiful Norse tongue )

so - to peace and long FtF sessions

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Abbott Shaull

Both Christianity and Muslim faith do discuss tolerance in their teaching of people who believe in other religions."

A few of my favorite tolerance verses...

"Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But even that would by no means remove the doom." Quran 2:96

"Only evil people are disbelievers." Quran 2:99

"The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers." Quran 2:254

"Those who disbelieve in the Quran, for whatever reason, are cursed by Allah, the angels, and men combined. So every good Muslim must join Allah and the angels in cursing nonbelievers." Quran 2:161

"The doom of the disbelievers will not be lightened." Quran 2:162

"It's you and your religion against them and theirs. They won't stop fighting until they make you a "renegade from your religion" and if they succeed in that so you die in disbelief, Allah will burn you forever in the Fire." 2:217

"Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim." Quran 3:73

"Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you." Quran 3:118

"A hypocritical Jew looks like an ass carrying books. Those who deny the revelations of Allah are ugly." Quran 62:5

"Smite (cut) the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded." Quran 47:4

"Only wrong-doers deny the revelations of Allah." Quran 29:49

"Allah will make disbelievers' lives miserable in this world and torture them forever after they die." Quran 2:114

"Allah gave Muhammad the one true religion and sent him to conquer all other (false) religions." Quran 61:9

"Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger will be among the lowest." 58:20

"Stay away from non-Muslims, especially those who disbelieve in the afterlife." Quran 53:29

"Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels." Quran 53:27

"If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom." 48:16

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" Quran 8:12

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Quran 9:29

"Those who disbelieve are guilty folk." Quran 45:31

"Those who disbelieve will taste hard punishment." Quran 41:50

"Intermarriage is forbidden." Quran 2:221

"Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter." Quran 33:60-61

"Allah will taunt the Christians in hell, saying: Where are all my parnters that you used to believe in?" Quran 40:73

"Those who disbelieve are the owners of the Fire." Quran 40:6

"Those who disbelieve will be driven into hell." Quran 39:71-72

"Allah will make non-believers "taste humiliation in the life of the world" and " the doom of the Hereafter" which will be even worse." Quran 39:26

"Those who deny the messengers deserve doom." Quran 38:14

"Allah killed everyone in Sodom except for Lot and his family." Quran 37:136

"Allah drowned everyone except Noah and his family in the flood." Quran 37:82

"Those who refuse to believe in Muhammad's revelations will face a painful doom." Quran 37:31-38

"Disbelievers will burn forever in the fire of hell. Allah will keep them alive so that he can torture them forever. When they repent and ask for mercy, he will ignore them." Quran 35:36-7

"Ignore disbelievers and their poisonous talk." Quran 33:48

"Don't obey disbelievers." Quran 33:1

"When the Hour comes, Christians will be divided into two groups: Those who believed Allah's revelations, and those who disbelieved in them. The believers will be happy in the Garden; the disbelievers will be brought to doom." Quran 30:13-16

"Those who disbelieve in the revelations of Allah are the losers." Quran 29:52

"Never help disbelievers." Quran 28:86

"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." Quran 2:191

[95th Rifleman]

I'm trying to resist the temptation to dredge up similar verses from both the Bible and the Torah.

It does both amuse and dismay me that we seem to have to have an enemy. It's more pronounced in the English and American mentalities but is present throughout the west.

Way before WW2 we where persecuting jews and using religous texts to justify their demonisation. We all know how tat hobby turned out in the end don't we?

The majority of the problems between islam and the west can be traced back to the crusades when some daft pope called Pious yelled "Deus volte!" and with two words justified the murder and rape of any poor soul who wasn't a catholic.

With the fall of communism we have pounced on islam as the next boogey man under the bedn and sure as winter and taxes, we will find another one in a century or so.

The only thing that will ever unite the human race is the discovery of inteligent life outside this earth. Then we can unite in our hatred of it.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

The only thing that will ever unite the human race is the discovery of inteligent life outside this earth. Then we can unite in our hatred of it.

Or unshackling ourselves from outdated dogmatic beliefs and continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking, we can always wait for aliens later.

It isn't humans that are flawed beyond hope.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

I'm trying to resist the temptation to dredge up similar verses from both the Bible and the Torah.

You can always start with slavery being okay.

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ." (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Slavery FTW!!!!!!11111

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

hell i can tell a few tales of aggressive zionists (I walked into a few of them in oxford once saying that the palestinians where animals and should be wiped out).

I have met one like that who had been my sister's boyfriend and the head of an anti-racist organization. I threaten to throw him out of the window after he told me that "a good muslim is a dead muslim"

Then, I agree with you riflle. Altough i don't believe in any god, fundamentalism of all sorts are in no ways a question of religion. Simply a question of Mankind and mankind is capable of the best but also of the worse.

The surprising thing is how much we fear muslim terrorism while this doesn't reflect reality. After 9/11, in US, over 22 terrorist attacks I could list on wiki only one can be linked to Islamic fundamentalism, 5 more to isolated muslim madness, 5 to various activists (annimal rights, anti-abortions...), most were the fact of Catholic and almost all resulted from the action of isolated madmen.

When you get to France, since january 2009, 120 terrorist attacks have hit the country (the public has been aware of one or two at most) with 4 by a shadowy wine defense group (no kidding), 10 by the basques and 106 by the corsicans (In corsica and corsica alone). Still if you ask a french who is a terrorist these days, he will answer the Muslims, Corsicans being part of our tourist attraction anyway.

I'm not saying that there is no real Islamic fundalism threat (which is indeed very real), simply that regular people are overwhelmed by their imagination.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Or unshackling ourselves from outdated dogmatic beliefs and continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking, we can always wait for aliens later.

Yes. A world of Yes. Couldn't have put it better myself.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by 95th Rifleman

It does both amuse and dismay me that we seem to have to have an enemy. It's more pronounced in the English and American mentalities but is present throughout the west.

Nothing so surprising as the West is Christian. Christianity was first adopted by Emperor Constantin in order to win a war. Ever since, it has constantly been brought forward for the same purpose. The fault, however, might not be in Christianity but in Constantin.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

continuing with the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. With an emphasis on education, logic and rational, critical thinking.

Too bad these are shadded in blood and treachery. Founding a new age might be a better option. The age of reason is as outdated as the dogmatic beliefs.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

The age of reason is as outdated as the dogmatic beliefs.

I highly disagree. The modern form of the scientific method for example, is the best know technique in that discipline. It isn't outdated if it works, works well, and there is no better known alternative.

[dragoon500ly]

I've always tried to maintain a neutral stance whenever the discussion turns around to politics and religion, both tend to tick off just about everyone!

My own views on Islam is colored by my personnel experiences. First, while stationed in Oman as part of a Military Assistance Program. The year I spent there was most enlighting in so far as teching me on just how badly the US is hated in the Middle East. Our support of Israel, our dealings in supporting too many governments that, frankly, placed human rights well below that of those enjoyed by racing camels.

To see a woman, stoned to death, her crime, she walked to the market with a man who was not her husband or one of his relatives (he was her brother, but that doesn't count); tends to not leave a high opinion of the religion.

Converstations with Omani soldiers simply confirmed their viewpoint on America. They call us the Great Satan for a reason. And please remember, Omani has been a US ally for sometime, and thier own citizens believe that "Crusaders must be killed."

Care to take a wild guess on who they consider to be Crusaders?

To be sure, there are moderates; but then these are not the ones using the religion to murder innocents. The sad fact of life is that most of the famous Islamic leaders of the 20th Century, are terrorists.

In my office there are two Moslems, and the difference between the two is eye-opening. One is a moderate, has lived in the US for over twenty years (has been a citizen for over fifteen years), is married to an American and has five children, all born and raised in the USA. He faithly practises his religion and is an example of the good that Islam can produce.

The second, now a former worker, was a shining example of the popular example of Islam. He contributed part of his paycheck to an Imam known to support Al-Quida. He certainly enjoyed cruising their websites and was finally arrested after finally coming to the attention of the FBI. Converstations with this person, where to say the least, eye opening, hence my original posting.

A religion, that allows its members to restrict their female followers to the status of fifth-class citizens, that demonizes anyone who does not believe as they do; that considers itself to have a mandate from God-given to convert by sword and flame, is a religion that generates mistrust, fear and anger.

It is even a greater shame that this same, extremist atitude can be found in Christian sects as well as Islamic sects. But then, haven't we been cheerfully killing each other "In the Name of God" since the beginning of recorded history?

[95th Rifleman]

In regards to Human rights abuse, most of the obscene practices in the middle east actualy predate islam. Another example is female circumcison in certain parts of africa, the practice predates the islamic convesion of the region. Religion is just used as a handy way to reinforce such practices. Christianity has been used to justify similar obscene practices in the past.

I'm a pagan, was raised catholic but abandoned that paticular faith when I was beaten black and blue at school after an IRA attack. the fact that my father was in the RAF had no bearing it seems, i was catholic and as such a legitimate target. hell the kids who beat me up probably couldn't name a single street in belfast (I was in Norflk at the time, my dad osted to RAF marham) but because they where told the IRA where catholic they picked on the first catholic they knew.

This kind of opened my eyes in allot of ways and now that I'm 30 and consider myself somewhat educated and modestly inteligent, i try to be logical about things.

the middle eastern mess originates in the crusades, but the cold war is the main factor responsible for the state of things today. America supported Israel and as such the soviets backed Israel's enemies. America then supported middle eastern nations that had issues with soviet backed nations. Britain brought in nations that had a good relationship going back to colonial days (such as Jordan and saudi). This set the scene for decades of delicate balance.

The problem is when the soviets collapsed and America seemed to finaly win the cold war, America was left with the mess in the middle east. iraq is a good example, for years he was America's pet and was allowed to do what he wanted as long as he stood against Iranin the balancing act. How that ended up is a matter of historic record now.

Bin laden is another good example, during the soviet war against Afghanistan the Mujahadeen and talibanwhere happily supported by America, as long as they where killing russians it's all good.

In the aftermath you have a world full of various groups armed and trained by one of the two superpowers who developed their own theological/political agendas that where previously kept in check by the cold war balancing act. Now we have no cold war they have been unleashed to haunt us.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

It isn't outdated if it works, works well, and there is no better known alternative.

If the men behind the age of reason had thought as you do, the age reason would have never existed. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it is outdated and we must go forward.

Moreover, you'll never find a better alternative if you don't look for it.

[Fusilier]

Originally Posted by Mohoender

If the men behind the age of reason had thought as you do, the age reason would have never existed. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it is outdated and we must go forward.

Moreover, you'll never find a better alternative if you don't look for it.

Implying nobody is...

And more so, what makes it outdated?

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by headquarters

I still think the moderates will dominate in the end.

Who was it that said something like "all it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to stay silent"?
Given that uncomfortable truth, my money is on the extremists and fundamentalists punching well above their weight.

[Mohoender]

Originally Posted by Fusilier

Implying nobody is...

And more so, what makes it outdated?

Implying what? Simply that we must not remain stuck 3 centuries before our time.

What makes it outdated?

1) It is 300 years old and doesn't fit our today's world anymore.

2) More importantly, it replaced god by science but retain the original mistake of most modern religion. It retains the separation between mankind and the planet it lives on. We still are not part of nature but above it with a continuing idea of domination.

3) We are currently seeing the limit of it as science no longer provides answers to our current problems. For my part, I think it still could but not as long as it works in opposition to the planet. Just take a recent exemple: Japan and Fukushima. We have seen the limit of our current approach and what is our answer: Change the building norms. What will be the result of it: Nothing can be built anymore. I'm living in the region of Draguignan which was hit by floods. What is our answer: the same. Why teaching people to live with the risk while we simply can forbid them to live?

Funny how the current sciences evolved in ways similar to the medieval religions. At first, it progressively freed man from restraining religious rules (many still surviving nonetheless). Nowadays, It imposes even more rules that are as restraining :
- ecology plays on guilt as did the priests with the made-up ideas of purgatory.
- construction : within a few years I won't be anymore able to sell my house (new regulations that are too demanding) while housing price becomes so important that many can no longer to even afford to have a house.
- limitation of freedom of speech and attempt to limit the free flow of information : Patriot act in US, Hadopi in France... (all with a good reasons but always with no clear limits)
- destruction of the freedom to make a descent living (and I'm not kidding): you can no longer grow the plants grown by your father and sell them. We are now licensing life itself. Just as an exemple: In India, cotton growing farmers are now forced to use GM cotton from Monsanto. They can't afford it and currently more than 1000 of them commit suicide every month. That makes more casualties than the official numbers for the US intervention in Iraq.
- pure stupidity: We are outraged by the BP rig off the coast of US but don't care for the destruction in Nigeria. France is promoting nuclear power and we are dumping our waste with no control in the middle of Siberia. We are fighting piracy off the coast of Somalia and allow industrial fishing within the limit of their national waters pushing people there toward piracy (just a detail, piracy is also growing in Asia, off the coast of Africa, in the Carribean, and in the Mediterraneans).

Therefore, I'm not saying that you must destroy the principles but it's more than time to review them. I'm fine with regulation but not when regulations destroy freedom.

This thread has been talking of terrorism. What amaze me today is how limited terrorism remains and this alone should bring a lot of hope.