Questions about Home Guard/Militia units..

[Legbreaker]

Web, I think your post sums it up perfectly - if you want to do it, do it, but remember when you start digging into the details, it may not be as simple as first thought...

Bobcat, nice pics there. That's the sort of thing my money says will be found much more often than ex-military vehicles. They take a LOT less resources than a tank or (usually) an APC so might be found in settlements of around 10,000 people or more (provided the requirements Web mentioned are met). Occasionally smaller settlements might have one or two, but I'd think this would be the exception rather than the rule.

[Targan]

The Bob Semple Tank:


Designed and commissioned by my paternal great-grandfather (my father's father's father). Dad and I are his last surviving descendants with the surname Semple. Robert "Fighting Bob" Semple was the Minister of Works in the New Zealand government during WWII. Prior to becoming a New Zealand Member of Parliament he was an Australian miner, unionist and bare knuckle prize fighter.



Sure, it was a strange looking beast, armor plate bolted onto a D8 bulldozer. But I'm still very proud of my ancestor and his strange creation!

[Olefin]

Great post Web - and I agree with muchof what you said - remember even in the situation I postulated - i.e. as many as 200 working tanks and AFV's spread throughout the US - that you are talking about 4 working tanks/AFV's per state - now in Rhode Island or Connecticut that might seem like a lot but if you are looking at a state lying Wyoming then those vehicles are going to be very very spread out

thats why I took my home town as one of the areas that would have working AFV's because it had all the elements you described

food, electricity (waterpower from a river that ran thru it), materials (there were three huge scrap yards within 5 miles of it), a large machine shop, and enough trained machinists that some would survive

and in my case something like one out of three men in the town were veterans of either WWII, Korea, Vietnam or Desert Storm and many of those who werent were card carrying NRA members with a lot of guns - i.e. great town to not mess with for marauders

so take that kind of town as the prototype for one that would have AFV's and tanks in operation and that kind of town is the exception not the rule - thus the overall number sounds high but the reality is that it could be a couple hundred miles between towns that had such vehicles - hardly a common occurence

and since canon never mentioned them we dont know for sure what there is and what there isnt - the only real canon guide we have to go on would be the howitzers that were found in an NG armory in A Rock in Troubled Waters or the M113APC in the garage in Grenada as to what towns might have as to heavy weapons or AFV's

[schnickelfritz]

Does anyone have a scan of "A Rock in Troubled Waters" and any details on the article?

Thanks,
Dave

[Apache6]

Lots of discussion on this thread about how units would resurrect or maintain obsolete AFVs. I think that this is possible, and could be used by GM to add flavor. I think that it's at least if not more likely that PCs would encounter A FEW States Guard units, local militas... would have some types of current vehicles. How would they come by them you ask? The below are 'possible' stories that might add flavor, it's entirely possible that the PCs would never find out how a T-72 made it to the NE.

- "Johny and Jamie" are high school sweethearts called to service as reinforcements for the Tennessee National Guard, 278th Armored Cavalry Regiment. They are awaiting deployment on TDM. They take their factory fresh LAV-25 (with full combat load) and head home, hiding the LAV-25 at her Dads farm. Once at home they volunteer to support the local milita that is formed to resist the New America threat. Of course it's also possible that a local militia who had a single LAV-25, could float the rumor that they were protected by a significant number of highly motivated United States Marines.

- US forces retreating from Mexican Army (that requires suspension of disbelief) run out of fuel at X location. They drive a vehicle or two into the 'back forty' on a friendly locals farm, don blue jeans and let the enemy pass them by. Later as distilling technology becomes availalbe they are able to get the vehicles back to the fight.

- There was a significant battle or some ones Air Force strikes someone elses' retreating forces, damaging a significant number of vehicles. Due to the fluid nature of the fight, the combatants are not able to recover the damaged vehciles. At their leisure, the locals recover 17 battle damaged T-72s and 9 BMP-2 (or whatever numbers/types) and are able to piece together enough parts to make 2 T-72s and 1 BMP-2 fully mission capable, 2 T-72s and 2 BMP-2s are towed to positions as static pillboxs, while others are used as decoys/deception (the threat made more realistic as they actually have some operational vehicles). Some are not runners and their guns don't work or have ammo, "only" the 14.5mm AA-HMG remains functional. Some of the wounded crews, after being given aid, or forced may help to repair and crew the systems.

- A M-1 tank was being shipped by commercial truck was heading from Ft Knox Ky (or other location), to Norfolk, VA when conditions go bad and the driver decides to head home with his load, or he could be relatively easily hijacked. Locals have a tank and some one who knows how to drive it, but no main gun ammo or Machine Guns. Same idea could be used for a truck full of TOW missiles, or 40mm rounds for MK-19..., or even a train full of AFVs).

- Prototypes and test beds. At TDM McDonald Douglas was working on integrating a improved laser designator upgrade to the Bradley at their St Louis facility. At the same time at MIT, the physics department was working on a sensor that would detect the 'electronic emissions' from Soviet AFVs, meaning that they needed and received a T-72, a BMP-2, and a SU-152 captured in China for testing. These are pushed into action as the situation deteriorates. MIT is able to fabricate decent ammo.

- Captured enemy vehicles: Partisians capture a BMP-2 by shooting the gunner, left on guard, through the back hatch, while the rest of the crew are raping a local girl, they are gunned down as they come out. This supposedly happened in Bosnia.

[Olefin]

keep in mind that there are already a lot of AFV's and tanks in the hands of collectors here that are in working order - so its not just getting tanks sitting on display in front of the VFW or at a museum working - in a lot of cases they are ready to go and in the hands of collectors and re-enactment groups

in those cases its more a case of getting ammo for them - and there are dummy or inert rounds available that can be re-armed - its dangerous but it can be done.

so how could militia units get their hands on equipment

a) collector or re-enactment group that had working vehicles prior to TDM or got them working afterward using parts they already had. This would be a large percentage of the vehicles in place in the US and most collectors who have such vehicles not only kept them in prime working order but had a decent collection of manuals and spares for them. I.e. who is going to spend 30,000 grand for a working Ferret and then not spend another 100 for all the manuals you need to keep it working along with a couple thousand for spare parts?

b) display or museum vehicles that were taken off stands and were put back into service at some degree from fully functional to armored pillboxes (see the Krakow module for an idea of a tank converted into a non-moveable pillbox), starting most likely after the Russians invaded Alaska and accelerating after TDM until late 1998 when most areas lost electrical power for the last time

these vehicles would more than likely be stationary vehicles used to defend the town, possibly only with the machine guns working, and with limited main gun ammo as well, especially if its not an M60 (those tanks would be much more easily armed due to the NG armories still having ammo for those tanks)

c) stolen or diverted vehicles, especially post TDM, from repair depots, train yards, etc. - we ship Bradley's and M88's by rail - imagine a stalled train sitting in a yard after TDM and the local authorities commandeer the vehicles for protection - all you have to do is cut the locks off and fire them up - you would need to mount weapons on them unless due to the military situation they started having us install them for shipment (which we can do)

d) vehicles found on battlefields that were not recovered by the various militaries for some reason - I would see these more as a source of ammo, weapons and spare parts for use on other vehicles - especially be in the case of opportunistic scavengers getting to them while the battle continues elsewhere - in my campaign in Poland we ran into an arms dealer in Krakow who had 60 main gun rounds for our M1 who basically had been with the Polish army and deserted right after the battle, along with the remnants of his platoon, and who scavenged stuff out of knocked out vehicles of both sides to set himself up in business before they left

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Olefin

keep in mind that there are already a lot of AFV's and tanks in the hands of collectors here that are in working order - so its not just getting tanks sitting on display in front of the VFW or at a museum working - in a lot of cases they are ready to go and in the hands of collectors and re-enactment groups

in those cases its more a case of getting ammo for them - and there are dummy or inert rounds available that can be re-armed - its dangerous but it can be done.

so how could militia units get their hands on equipment

a) collector or re-enactment group that had working vehicles prior to TDM or got them working afterward using parts they already had. This would be a large percentage of the vehicles in place in the US and most collectors who have such vehicles not only kept them in prime working order but had a decent collection of manuals and spares for them. I.e. who is going to spend 30,000 grand for a working Ferret and then not spend another 100 for all the manuals you need to keep it working along with a couple thousand for spare parts?

You'd be surprised at the number of collectors who have working vehicles but don't do the rebuild/repair/maintenance work themselves. These people do not have the manuals or an extensive supply of spares. In fact, very few of them keep extensive supplies of spares because their vehicles simply are not used as much as they would be in a working or operational situation.

Similarly, many collectors simply cannot afford to spend "a couple thousand for spare parts" when they buy their vehicles. Many of them take out loans from the bank to purchase their vehicles and live with a very tight budget to allow them to do so. It's only the most wealthy who can afford to do such things.

And as for manuals, just because some of you had access to the internet in the early 1990s - before the general public did - and could find some military manuals for download, does not mean that military vehicle collectors had access or were able to find the correct manuals. You can find reprints, photocopies and pdfs of various vehicle manuals for sale now (and some for free) because the hobby has much more presence on the internet now but in the early 1990s such manuals were still rare and quite costly and were often only available at trade shows or through friends of friends sort of thing

[Webstral]

Feeling a little odd at the moment. I threw a bucket of cold water on a survivalist who was under the impression that the difference between her family surviving an onslaught by 30 gang members (once the collapse of society has really gotten underway) was access to an AR15 v access to an M1903, shotguns, etc. I told her quite frankly that if she and her community didn’t form a local militia to tackle the bad guys in the field she and her family and were f*****, regardless of whether she and her husband have AR15 and a mountain of ammo or not. I went on further to say that isolated homesteads like the one she wants to defend will be sought-after prizes by marauders once the disintegration of society really gets underway. I described the cantonments we talk about.

Usually, I get a reply in a couple of minutes. There has been a long silence this time. I feel a little badly treating her cherished illusions so roughly, but someone has to point out to these survivalist types that the rugged individual is a Wild West cultural icon, not a viable plan for surviving catastrophe.

[HorseSoldier]

Agreed. If prepper/survivalist types can get truly off the grid and off the beaten path then maybe a nuclear family (+) sitting on top of a mountain of spam and ammo might have a chance -- but, if located with no prospects for support the truth is a homestead with, say, 2-4 adult males and same number of females (say an extended family or family plus some friends) can easily be defeated in detail. Hell, if the place doesn't have generators, fuel, water supplies, and all that sort of stuff under one roof (or at least covered and concealed routes to all of the above) a gang of 30 guys with a few shotguns for close in defense and a couple deer rifles they man 24/7 could win that fight without more than a couple shots fired. Especially if you have to leave the homestead building to water.

Of course in T2K these sorts of places that last are going to have either integrated with some sort of broader defense militia, or, if they're on arable land, turned into freehold/mini-village sort of places with enough manpower to get a crop in as well as face down your smaller bandit and marauder gangs. The ones that can't adapt along those lines or find some other solution to make themselves less low hanging as fruit goes are going to be burned out ruins by the times the PCs wander through that part of the world. A generous GM might let them find a secret stash of spam or ammo if they poke around enough, I suppose . . .

[Olefin]

here is a great example of where AFV's and tanks could come from for Home Guard or militia units - this musuem has a large collection of restored to operational condition tanks and other vehicles - this museum and most of its collection were in place in the Indianapolis area pre TDM

http://www.ropkeyarmormuseum.com/index.html

http://www.cdsg.org/forums/viewtopic...475d19e0527508

they have, among other things:

three M50 Ontos of which one is a parts vehicle

several Shermans, including the vehicle used in the movie "Tank" with James Garner ( 75mm, 76mm and 105mm versions)

a M56 Scorpion, a Walker Bulldog, a Chafee, an M20 and an M8 AC, M47 and M48 Pattons, a M26 Pershing,

let alone a WWI M1917 tank and a type 97 Japanese tank

a place like this would literally be a gold mine for vehicles after TDM - and with most of them in running as new condition it really shows what could be available here in the US

the owner and his family have a lot of spare parts, engines, etc.. as well - they are the ones who did the restorations

Could be used as a basis for a mission for sure - i.e. CivGov, who in general is starved for armor compared to MilGov, sends men to try to buy the tanks from him and if he wont give them up then obtain them any way possible

or he has formed the tanks into a Home Guard unit that by 2000-2001 is very powerful - and CivGov and MilGov are both trying to get him to come over to them

or you get a message stating how that unit is under attack by New America and unless help arrives all that equipment could fall into their hands

or you have a tank or AFV but cant get it running - and the only place to get both the parts and the know how is his museum - you get there to find its now a heavily guarded fortress - and he says sure no problem - all you have to do is go and get him parts that he needs from (fill in the blank here) and he will give you what you need

[natehale1971]

Preppers... I did a very good article about the Prepper community, and lifestyle back in 2007/2008 while in college that was spread far and wide in Prepper cicles. namely due to the fact I interviewed several preppers of varing levels of what they prepare for. I watch "Doomsday Preppers" and many times they are going for the far end of the spectrum of whom they are interviewing for the show to get ratings. Not to show the community as they really are.

Most preppers know that they can't stand by themselves, and create networks of like-minded familes so they can coordinate and work together if things fall apart and the end of civilization as we know it happens.. and many know that they can create a lifeboat for their loved ones, but that they must also make sure that they can become a safeharbor in the storm for the good people whom would be benificial to everyones mututal survival.

In North Carolina alone, there is a resort/inn and an 'old west' theme park that are owned by preppers whom have sunk a great deal of their budget in setting things up to be just that... they have plans for their own family and close personal friends. but they also are taking measures for taking in other survivors who would provide them with a larger base of personnel to hold onto their safehavens.

Now back to the Home Guard / Local Militia resources...

I've been checking out the Confederate Air Force and their restored World War Two aircraft that they are routinely renting out to television and movies... doing air shows all across the country. And I am starting to look into World War Two-era armored fighting vehicles, especially since so many of these vehicles and AFV from Korea, Vietnam and Desert Stor are now being made available on the Military Surplus Market.

The More modern military aircraft are not showing up on the market... some of the helicopters and support aircraft ARE showing up. but none of the fighter jets or more modern attack helicopters. I've read where an AH-1 Cobra helicopter gunship that had been used during Vietnam was bought by a private collector back in the late-1980s.

As well as some of the combat helicopters that have been purchased by companies that are doing the same thing as the Confederate Air Force so they can be used in movies and television shows.

but i'm not seeing anything for figher jets or the like...

which has been quite interesting.

But there is a wide vareity of what kinds of equipment that could find their way into the hands of the State Guard, Home Guard and local militias during the Twilight War and it's aftermath. Which makes me scratch my head about how well the Mexicans were able to take and hold so much of the American South West. To which I still believe that the United Mexican States had to use the years prior to the Twilight War to build up their military in not just in the kind of weapons and equipment they had access to, but in professionalism as well... UNLESS they were assisted in their invasion by the cartels, gangs and La Raza/Azteka radical insurgents.

The other reason why Mexico was able to hold onto that area, was that the local Americans chose to stay under Mexican banner thanks to the nature of the three way civil war going on between MilGov-CivGov-New America.

but that's not what i started this thread about... so it's not as important right now.

If anyone has links to sites that deal with groups like the Confederate Air Force, I'd really appreacate it.

[Apache6]

Not exactly the same as a PA environment, but the photos are of weapons made by criminals or insurgents. I believe similar would be made in PA environment.

[Apache6]

Attached photos are of technicals from African rebellions/militias and a improvised AFV from Bosnia.

[Apache6]

First picture is of a 'amphibious modification of a standard truck, made in Cuba. Also a Chinese 107 mm MRL mounted on a JEEP. The last three potos are "Live Action Role Players" but are 'semi-believable' modifications, that might be of use to a GM running a campaign in US SW. OK the one with the girl is only semi believable eye candy, but a compressed air launcher is very doable by many machine shops, and good be mounted on light trucks.

[natehale1971]

Thank you so much Apache 6!

these are great pics.

[Webstral]

I’m very impressed by the homemade RPG-style grenade launcher. I’d like to know more about the warhead.

[natehale1971]

I actually found a PDF of the Improvised Weapons of the American Underground on Scribd... and i'm looking for more like it to get a good idea for something i've been working on that can be used for both Twilight 2000 and the Morrow Project that was inspired by the TV show Jericho (which i've recently discovered has been continued as a comic book series that is now on my amazon wish list for stuff to get when I get the money for them).

I'm also looking for good reference pictures that would work for local militias and homeguard personnel, and the more i think about it... i'm thinking of posting something on Facebook asking for gamers and airsoft players if they will volunteer for a photoshoot that i would do to get some really good reference pics. If this does happen, i'll be definately posting them here.

[Olefin]

Love the improvised weapons - and you are right you can make weapons using compressed air that would be very good improvised mortars and cannons -you wont get the same range of course - but you still get the same effect. Can definitely see a Wojo compressed air mortar for instance or grenade launcher as part of the defenses at Krakow.

Can see a player who has compressed air and the ability to recharge it thinking "hey wonder if I can use this to make a weapon?"

[Apache6]

From various sources, photos from web.

Some (many?) of these I previously posted in post apoc photo thread, hope thats not against the rules on this forum?

[Apache6]

From various sites on web.

Some hunters, some paintball, some militia

[Apache6]

Including reinactors and a sheriff's posse

[Webstral]

If they were naked, half of these fat chuckleheads still would not be light infantry. I pray my liberties are not in their hands.

[Raellus]

A lot of those "militia" boys really need to step up their PT. I'm sure that in a T2K world, they'd be a lot thinner due to an apocalyptically-induced diet, but holy cow.

I hope no one takes offense at this, but grossly overweight cops and wanna-be soldiers make me shake my head- how can you adequately do your job when you're carrying around an extra 20-100 pounds? Civil War reenactors too- they try so hard when it comes to making their uniforms as authentic as possible, but a lot of them don't seem to mind that they weigh twice as much as your average Civil War era soldier did. It's quite ironic.

[schnickelfritz]

It's not just CW Reenactors. I'm a WW2 guy and man oh man there are far too many guys reenacting "high speed" units of both sides that wouldn't pass even the most basic of fitness tests. Airborne, Ranger, SS, FJ, that kind of stuff...yeesh, sometimes it goes from hilarious to downright pathetic.

-Dave

[.45cultist]

One of the arsenals (Anniston I believe) supports the special ops community and approved museums. They have everything including rare items like the WWI North American Arms M1911. They also have vehicles and store the Army's hereldry. A source of obelete gear since each weapon has all the equipment- an M1918 BAR has the gunner's belt and the spare mags.

[rcaf_777]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

It's not just CW Reenactors. I'm a WW2 guy and man oh man there are far too many guys reenacting "high speed" units of both sides that wouldn't pass even the most basic of fitness tests. Airborne, Ranger, SS, FJ, that kind of stuff...yeesh, sometimes it goes from hilarious to downright pathetic.

-Dave

I recently sold most of my Cdn WWII Reenactor Gear, I guy I sold it too said it too bad I was'nt fatter as he could sold it quicker lol

[.45cultist]

They could also be used to beef up a newly formed unit. I use the Americal Division, which hasn't been used since the mutiny in the Vietnam war. using a mixed cadre of regulars, Guard, and the foriegn units training in the States and alot of militia, state guards. Armor was M48A5's originally used as targets and foriegn aid, Stingrays and M8's. A mix of M1's were scraped together with more units including some Canadians and non Mexican Hispanics who received rough treatment by Mexican border guards.

[Apache6]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...nade-launcher/

The link has photos and discussion of employment. I can see these being employed by homeguard/milita units.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by schnickelfritz

Does anyone have a scan of "A Rock in Troubled Waters" and any details on the article?

Thanks,
Dave

DriveThruRPG has the Challenge issue it is in.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by rcaf_777

I recently sold most of my Cdn WWII Reenactor Gear, I guy I sold it too said it too bad I was'nt fatter as he could sold it quicker lol

Twenty years and 70lbs ago my USAF gear fit But now I'd look like the militia guys.