Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[swaghauler]

This is one of those areas where I significantly disagree with the cannon as well (remember that I use v2.2 Cannon here). The German Army was very conservative and wouldn't adopt a rifle that did not "pass muster."
The G11 program was dropped after only 1000 rifles were procured because of "teething problems" with the rifles (they couldn't get through two magazines without jamming) and issues with the ammo (the "powder charge" would "flake off" with rough handling and there were numerous "failures to fire"). this would have kept the G11 out of the field for general issue. Assuming that H&K could have solved the ammo issues would still mean that there were only enough rifles in existence for GSG-9 type units. Ironically, it would be FN that would solve the G11 reliability issue with the P90. All it took was using cased ammunition that wasn't so easily damaged. There was really nothing wrong with H&K's design of the G11's vertically rotating breech block. It was all in the ammo.

The G-36 would begin issue in 1996 and 2000 were submitted for extended testing with approval for adoption by 1997. This would allow around another 4000 or 5000 rifles to come into existence before the interruption of production. This rifle could be in the hands of airborne troops or other special units. The rest of the German army would still be using G3's or pressing G41A1s into service (the G41 variant that was modified AFTER losing the German trials but never produced in large numbers).

Another rifle with issues is the AN-94. This rifle has a VERY POOR reliability record. The Soviets gave about 2000 to several Spetznaz and Marine units for testing. They continue to use it but it is an incredibly complex design that is still unreliable in use. Larry Vicker's Youtube video on the An-94 (where a jam took THREE MEN with a toolkit to clear it) is normal for that rifle. I doubt the Russians would have continued extended development during the war.
The AEK-971 shows a lot of promise but with limited production, no more than a few thousand would be able to reach the field before production was interrupted.
My last "nitpick" with Twilight2000 is the idea of the AKMr (rechamber). I do NOT ALLOW this rifle in my game because there is NO REASON for it to exist.
This is simply another case where the Devs weren't well educated with small arms development (and there's no shame in that). The cost of replacing the Bolt, Bolt carrier, Trunnion, sights, and the barrel is more than 80% of the cost of a new rifle. Additionally, when you're done, you STILL HAVE A RIFLE WITH USED PARTS ON IT! It is much more economical to sell TWO OLDER AKMs and use that money to build ONE NEW AK-74 than to convert 7.62mm rifles to 5.45mm.

[Raellus]

I've read several recent articles citing reliability and fragility issues with the G36. Heck, if the Kurdish Peshmerga are complaining about free German assault rifles, you know that something's probably wrong.

Swag, it look like our thinking is more or less in line, despite the fact that we each embrace different timelines.

Here's how I see things playing out in v1.0.

The G11 is adopted in the late-'80s and enters initial, small-batch production in the early '90s. It is issued first to special forces and airborne troops who immediately report reliability problems & issues with the caseless ammunition. The gov't decides that revamping an already expensive project this will make the G11 too pricey for general issue- there's also continuing NATO opposition to the caseless ammo- and directs HK to develop a more conventional G3 replacement that fires standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition. The G36 is developed in the mid-'90s and initial production begins. This would be around 1996, v1.0 timeline.

However, at this point, the W. German gov't is already in the advanced planning stages for reunification-by-force, and instructs H&K to cancel G36 production and switch instead to full-scale G33 and G32 production. This will allow the unified army to issue similar weapons that can be fed by existing stockpiles of ammunition. This new initiative preempts development of the G36.

So, once the war kicks off, you'd see German units carrying a mixture of weaponry.

Special Forces and airborne troops would start the war using a mixture of G11, G36, and G3s. Later on, they'd probably be using more G33s and G32s due to better reliability and parts/ammo availability.

First line, W. German Panzergrenadier and light infantry would be issued fresh G33s and newer-make G3s.

First line, former-E. German units would be equipped mostly with fresh G32s 7.62x39mm and perhaps a 5.45mm version as well (G34 designation?).

Reserve W. German units would be equipped with a hodgepodge, mostly older G3s and a few newer G33s at first.

Reserve E. German units would keep their MPiKs (E. German AKM & AK-74 clones) and eventually start receiving G32s.

[RN7]

From my version (V1.0) of German forces for Twilight 2000.

Before the war the main service rifle of the West German Bundesheer was the Heckler & Koch G41 assault rifle, capable of full automatic fire or three round burst. The G41 was an upgraded version of the older Heckler & Koch HK-33 assault rifle and was intended as an interim design until the introduction of the new G11 assault rifle.

The Heckler & Koch G11 uses caseless ammunition and is capable of full automatic fire or three round bursts and can carry two spare magazines positioned parallel to the magazine in use. However difficulties in mass producing caseless ammunition due to other priorities before and during the war led to only limited production of the rifle, and the G11 was only issued to selected units such as the Fallschirmjager and Fernspah special forces.

Territorial forces continued to use the venerable Heckler & Koch G3 battle rifle that had been the main service rifle of the Bundesheer for decades. The G3 uses the 7.62mm NATO round as opposed to the lighter 5.56mm NATO round of the G41, and German troops preferred the stopping power of the G3.

When it was obvious that the G11 was becoming too complicated to produce Heckler & Koch developed the G36 assault rifle as an alternative replacement. The G36A1 rifle uses the same 5.56mm NATO round as the G41, but it is a more capable weapon with superior range. It went into production in 1996 and was issued to frontline German infantry until the nuclear detonations. All German rifles (G3, G36 and G41) can mount the HK-79 and M203 under barrel grenade launchers.

German Federal Border Guards used the G8A1 rifle, which was an automatic rifle variant of the Heckler & Koch HK21 light machine gun featuring a bipod, selective fire option and telescopic scope. Federal Border Guards and other police forces also used the Belgian FN FAL and Swiss SIG SG 550 battle rifles.

German officers, military police (Feldjager) and airborne forces were issued with sub-machine guns. The standard sub-machine gun of German forces was the Heckler & Koch MP5 (A2/A4/A5), with Territorial forces using the Israeli Uzi. German Special forces also used the Heckler & Koch MP5K and MP-5SD, or more rarely the Belgian FN P90. Naval forces and military police also used the Walther MPK and MPL.

The standard German sidearm was the Heckler & Koch P7 and USP pistol, with Territorial forces using the Walther P1/P38 pistol. German special forces used the Heckler & Koch P9 and Mark 23 pistol, and police forces using a variety of pistols and revolvers.

German forces also used the Heckler & Koch PSG1 and MSG90 sniper rifles, and the Remington Model 870 shotgun. German special forces used a range of sniper rifles including the AMP DSR-1, Remington M24 and British Accuracy International AWM-F sniper rifles. They also used Barrett M82 and Accuracy International AW-50 anti-material rifles. German police forces used the Heckler & Koch G8A1 with telescopic scopes and the Mauser 86SR, or more rarely the Blaser R93 and Walther WA 2000 sniper rifles.

German forces used DM51 concussion/fragmentation grenade and the DM24 incendiary/smoke grenade. Both grenades were made by German arms company Diehl, and incorporated a detachable fragmentation sleeve which allowed it to be used defensively or offensively without a sleeve. The DM24 grenade also differs from most other incendiary grenades as it is filled with red phosphorous rather than white phosphorous, making it considerably safer to use.

German Special forces also used the prototype INKAS integrated night-fighting system that was being developed for German forces before the start of the war. INKAS consists of a rifle-mounted infrared laser projector and image-intensifying goggles. The laser can be fitted to most German assault rifles and Heckler & Koch sub-machine guns directly in front of the fore-sight, and its beam is invisible except with IR-goggles or similar night-vision devices. INKAS allows for effective night combat efficiency, with the laser considerably enhancing-hit probability through its simple point-and-shoot system. Only special forces and selected Fallschirmjager units were equipped with INKAS.

East German forces used Warsaw Pact weapons. The standard assault rifle of the NVA was the Kalashnikov AK-74N that used 5.45mm Kalashnikov round, and was built under license by Sauer & Sohn in East Germany. Second line forces and security troops were issued with Kalashnikov AK-47 and AKM assault rifles that fired the larger but less accurate 7.62mm Kalashnikov round. The Kamphfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse militia used the AK-47 and the obsolete SKS semi-automatic carbine. The standard East German sidearm was the Makarov PM pistol. East German border troops, airborne forces and the Stasi were also issued with Soviet AKS-74U automatic carbines, Czech Omnipol VZ-61 Skorpion and Polish Lucznik PM-63 RAK sub-machine guns. East German sniper rifles included the Soviet SVD Dragunov and the East German made SSG-82 which was only used by the Stasi. East German used Soviet hand grenades such as the F1, RGD-33 and RGO fragmentation grenades.

After German Reunification West German units continued to use weapons chambered for NATO cartridges, while former East German forces used Soviet weapons for the same reason. As the war progressed German forces began to use whatever weapons were available, and in the later stages of the war even used Second World War era bolt action rifles such as the Soviet Mosin-Nagant M-1891 and former Wehrmacht Karabiner 98K's.

Civilian hunting rifles have also been increasingly used by militia forces. To add to the variety of firearms used by the Germans in the Twilight War many Austrian Army and US Army weapons also found their way into use. Austrian forces came under German control after 1997, and Austrian units use their own weapons including the Steyr AUG assault rifle and Steyr MPi 69 and TMP sub-machine guns. US firearms have also been distributed to German forces including Colt M16A2 assault rifles, Ingram MAC-10 sub-machine guns and other weapons. Five years of warfare against Warsaw Pact armies in Central Europe, the Italians in Austria, and the French and Belgian armies in the Rhineland has also led to the recovery of large stocks of captured firearms. In 2001 it is quite possible for individual German units to be using weapons from over half a dozen sources that are chambered to use NATO, Kalashnikov or other types of cartridges.

[swaghauler]

The German Polizei used several different 9mmP pistols during the Twilight War. The following pistols were generally issued:

Walther P1-Basically an "improved copy" of the Walther P38 with an open slide, slide mounted decocking safety, 8 shot capacity and heel magazine release.

Walther P5- an "improved" P1 with an enclosed slide, 8 shot magazine and frame mounted decocker only. Originally equipped with a heel mag release, later models featured an "American mag release" behind the decocking lever.

SIG P225/P6- An 8 shot, 7.8" long compact pistol with a frame mounted decocker and an "American magazine release." This was simply a "chopped" P220.

H&K P7 "Squeeze Cocker"/P7- H&K's revolutionary "squeeze cocking" grip that not only rendered the pistol safe when released but also acted as the "slide release" when reloading. 8 shot capacity with heel release on original models and an "ambidextrous" dual paddle release behind the trigger guard on later European and American pistols.

H&K USP 9/P8- H&K's polymer high capacity 15 shot 9mmP with frame mounted decocker and safety combined. The magazine release is an ambidextrous dual lever behind the trigger guard. Night Sights are standard.

SIG P228/P9- SIG's 13 shot double column 9mmP with frame mounted decocker and "American" style button magazine release. Night Sights are standard.

While I found some reference to GSG-9 and certain other "SWAT" teams using the .45; all of them referenced either the 8 shot P220 (with heel release AND "American" release) or the USP-45 Tactical 12 shot .45; I can find NO mention of German Polizei ever using the H&K Mark 23....

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

I can't recall where I read it, but I did see an article a few months ago that suggested that the UK still had a stockpile of SLR's which ran into the tens of thousands, so I think it's highly likely that the SLR would be the most commonly found weapon amongst British forces either though neccessity or choice. I also like the idea of reissuing Brens, and would probably add to that the possibility of very occasionally encountering militia and Home Service Force units in the UK armed with .303 Lee Enfields. There's also likely to be a number of MP5's in circulation as that was the standard issue long arm of most British police forces (at least on the mainland).

One minor thing - whilst I agree with most of what you've said here (including the reissue of the Bren gun), IRL Sterling Armaments went bust in the late 80's, so wouldn't be in any position to start remanufacturing the AR18.

(Of course, that doesn't mean that they have to go bust in a T2K World...)

On a side note, finding ways for marauder groups in the UK to be armed is a source of constant headaches for me...there are only so many dodgy French weapons dealers or abandoned HSF caches...I do sometimes envy those whose work is set in the US where it seems (to me at least) that both lawful and unlawful groups have relatively easy access to large amounts of weapons.

Interesting views on the G11 / G36 debate also. I've always been a fan of the G36, but as I use a Version 1 timeline following the logic here I think I may have to dump it in favour of the G11.

You could always use a Chinese freighter and the Irish insurgents to supply weapons, one accidently, the other to keep its enemy busy.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

While I found some reference to GSG-9 and certain other "SWAT" teams using the .45; all of them referenced either the 8 shot P220 (with heel release AND "American" release) or the USP-45 Tactical 12 shot .45; I can find NO mention of German Polizei ever using the H&K Mark 23....

German police and SWAT (Sondereinsatzkommando) units were never issued with the H&K Mark 23. But GSG9 which is part of the German Federal Border Guards were issued with some H&K Mark 23's in the 90's. There is not very much information about who used the H&K Mark 23 other than the usual sources which states that the US Special Forces and a few others used the pistol. However the German military especially the Kampfschwimmer which are the German equivalent to the US Navy Seals almost certainly tested and used the H&K Mark 23. German special forces units were all rebranded as the KSK in 1996 and the Germans now use the similar H&K USP P12, but they still may have a few Mark 23 knocking about.

[.45cultist]

For Britain, the Pattern Room inventory was to be moved to several more secure storage facilities but a couple of convoys never made it due to the bombs. It could even play out like the gold convoy in "Armies of the Night", which would add a cadre of modern police or military gear. An Armed Response van would be a good start for a small band. A cottage factory is making Stens for sale.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by RN7

German police and SWAT (Sondereinsatzkommando) units were never issued with the H&K Mark 23. But GSG9 which is part of the German Federal Border Guards were issued with some H&K Mark 23's in the 90's. There is not very much information about who used the H&K Mark 23 other than the usual sources which states that the US Special Forces and a few others used the pistol. However the German military especially the Kampfschwimmer which are the German equivalent to the US Navy Seals almost certainly tested and used the H&K Mark 23. German special forces units were all rebranded as the KSK in 1996 and the Germans now use the similar H&K USP P12, but they still may have a few Mark 23 knocking about.

Thanks for the insight. This is definitely one of those "grey areas" where hard info is difficult to come by. While I have a great deal of knowledge about the pistols I posted on because I have each and every one of them; I but don't know as much about their history of use (especially in Europe).

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

For Britain, the Pattern Room inventory was to be moved to several more secure storage facilities but a couple of convoys never made it due to the bombs. It could even play out like the gold convoy in "Armies of the Night", which would add a cadre of modern police or military gear. An Armed Response van would be a good start for a small band. A cottage factory is making Stens for sale.

This is an interesting Idea.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

This is an interesting Idea.

Know a guy who got to tour it. There is a lot there covering several centuries. A GM could use it to add anything. Also remember the fire stations discovered a few years back they had 200 year old boarding axes.Bolt guns are common than one thinks, as are AR15's with uppers converted to manual pull. A smuggler need only bring FN uppers or parts to convert these back. And British citizens on both sides of the law will want weaponry.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I made a post in the "Odd Treasure Troves" thread about zoos/wildlife parks being a possible source of firearms. Many zoos around the world have firearms trained personnel to take care of any dangerous animals that escape and so on.
These places can provide a small quantity of civilian shotguns and rifles but most people don't associate zoos/wildlife parks with a cache of firearms.

This is the article from The Firearms Blog that I linked to in the other thread, it has much more detail than I've mentioned here.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...irearm+Blog%29

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I made a post in the "Odd Treasure Troves" thread about zoos/wildlife parks being a possible source of firearms. Many zoos around the world have firearms trained personnel to take care of any dangerous animals that escape and so on.
These places can provide a small quantity of civilian shotguns and rifles but most people don't associate zoos/wildlife parks with a cache of firearms.

True. It's a pity Harambe didn't have the chance to shoot back.

[LoneCollector1987]

Hello,

as a former member of the FKG 2 I would be much interested in what the future of the FKG 1 and 2 would have been.

Both units were equipped with 36 Pershing 1A missiles each and were deactivated in 1991.
The nuclear warheads were under the control of a US unit, in the case of the FKG 2 it was the US Army 85th Field Artillery Detachment.

But what about the Twilight timelines?

Would something like the SLEP (Service Life Extension Programm) for aircraftcarriers happened to those missiles?

Would they have been replaced by a more modern missile or would those units turned into artillery units with 155mm guns?

I once started to write a sourcebook myself, but WRITERSBLOCK (and I dont know how to beat it) but in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by LoneCollector1987

Hello,

as a former member of the FKG 2 I would be much interested in what the future of the FKG 1 and 2 would have been.

Both units were equipped with 36 Pershing 1A missiles each and were deactivated in 1991.
The nuclear warheads were under the control of a US unit, in the case of the FKG 2 it was the US Army 85th Field Artillery Detachment.

But what about the Twilight timelines?

Would something like the SLEP (Service Life Extension Programm) for aircraftcarriers happened to those missiles?

Would they have been replaced by a more modern missile or would those units turned into artillery units with 155mm guns?

I once started to write a sourcebook myself, but WRITERSBLOCK (and I dont know how to beat it) but in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

I use the V2.2 Timeline and they were replaced in my timeline (like they were in reality) with generation 2 thermobaric devices. Why risk the dangers of fallout when you can have all the benefits of a tac nuke without the drawbacks? Many of the Tac Nukes were more than 20 years old (the warheads) and nearing the end of their service lives anyway. It really wouldn't take much to retrofit a Pershing with a thermobaric warhead.

[RN7]

Originally Posted by LoneCollector1987

in my timeline the missiles were replaced by the fictional Pershing III missile (range and payload nearly identical) that was a downsized version of the Pershing 2.

I think that missile was the Pershing 1B. The actual Pershing III was a proposed missile to replace the LGM-118 Peacekeeper (MX) ICBM. There is also now a proposal to develop a coastal based Pershing III that could be used to counter the Chinese DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile. It would be deployed supposedly in Japan and South Korea by the US Army.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by Raellus

We've discussed the UK's standard service rifle in the Twilight War and opinion is all over the board. Would it be the product-improved L85A2 (or would H&K have been too busy arming the newly unified German military to help fix the problematic SA80A1), the old but reliable SLR, a locally manufactured AR-18, or a combination of all three?

I think Enfield would've put some priority to fixing the l85, given the urgency of war, but definitely some mix of l85, SLR(fal), and ar-18. Same with most of the other major players. Germany: hk41, g3, and seldom few g11 and g36. Russia: ak47 & 74, sks, maybe a few svt40 and mosins. Us: m16/m4, m14, and I substitute a majority of the EZs with ar-18. And a proliferation of Robinson m96 for certain marine and special forces purposes.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Draq

I think Enfield would've put some priority to fixing the l85, given the urgency of war, but definitely some mix of l85, SLR(fal), and ar-18. Same with most of the other major players. Germany: hk41, g3, and seldom few g11 and g36. Russia: ak47 & 74, sks, maybe a few svt40 and mosins. Us: m16/m4, m14, and I substitute a majority of the EZs with ar-18. And a proliferation of Robinson m96 for certain marine and special forces purposes.

Great Britain:

I would see the British falling back to their L1A1s. They still had huge stockpiles of these rifles and ammo and magazines are no problem. I think the British would also re-issue Sterling SMGs for Home Guard and rear echelon troops. The British had thousands of Sterlings which had been replaced by the IW tucked away in their arsenals. I believe they would dust them off and re-issue them as quickly as possible. The Sterling really was a pretty good SMG with a cyclic rate of 550 rpm, a compact size (for tankers and truckers), a weight of about 2.5kg empty and a single shot capability. as long as engagements are limited to around 100 meters, it could "fill in the gaps" between the IW and the L1A1.

Germany:

Germany still had HUGE quantities of both G3s and AKs to draw on. In my variation of the V2.2 timeline, Germany gives most of its "Pact" equipment to the pro-West Polish government in order to combat the Russian-backed rebels who plunged Poland into a civil war (triggering the Twilight War). The Germans provided "elite units" with the G36 and everyone else got a mix of G33s, G41s, and G3s (based on existing stocks in inventory- I roll a 1D10.. on a 1 you get a G36, 2 is a G41A1, 3-4 is a G33/G41 and 5+ is a G3). As hard as it is to believe, it costs 50% MORE to produce a G41A1 than a G36 (mainly due to machining costs v. injection molding costs). This means Germany would produce G36s in preference to other models. Rear echelon troops would use surplus Uzis and either the Walther MPL/MPK or the H&K MP-5 series submachineguns (both VERY expensive to manufacture). On a side note here, the H&K UMP can be produced for about 60% of the cost of an MP-5. The UMP was designed in the 90's but not produced for many years. The Twilight War could trigger the manufacture of the UMP.

The US:

The US was caught in the middle of transitioning to the M4. The elite units (Air Assault, Airborne, and Ranger units) would have the M4. Other frontline units would have the M16A2 and newly formed units would have the M16A1 pulled from "mothballs." The M3 grease gun, MP-5, Colt 9mmP subgun, UZI, and Carl Gustaff M36 subguns were all available for issue to stateside or rear area troops. The Mini-14 could have been pressed into service in large numbers as it was allowed to be manufactured during the '94 Assault Weapons Ban (making semi-auto versions available in larger quantities... at least until Mexico rolls into Arizona). There would be only limited quantities of other weapons available until manufacturers get assembly lines (shuttered due to the ban) up and running.

Designated Marksman's Rifles:

The Marines were pulling M14's out of mothballs in the 90's to make Designated Marksman's rifles using Leupold MK4 Day Scopes (3.5-10 X 40mm) and Harris Bipods. the M39 Designated Marksman's Rifle could make an appearance in the late 90's. This would be supplemented by 5.56mmN DMRs like MK12 SPR. The MK12 went through several "mods" before being standardized. Early MK12's start as an M16A1 lower (early models keep the full auto selector while later models used match-grade semi-auto triggers) with a match grade flat-top upper chambered for M855, not M193 ammo. The MK12 is topped with either a Leupold MK3 or a NightForce NX 2.5-10 X 36mm scope. The Marines even mounted ACOGs (both the 3.5X and 4X models) on the carrying handles of M16A2s.
The Army followed suit in 2003 with the M14 EBR (using the same optic). The Army also "dusted off" M21 Sniper Rifles and issued them as DMRs to elite units. Many of these early issues still had the Redfield Leatherwood ARM 3-9 X 42mm Scopes from the Vietnam War era. Those optics still had issues with losing zero and blurring at magnifications above 6 or 7 power. The Army would replace them with Leupold MK4 3.5-10 X 40mm scopes (just like in real life). the Army also issued a version of the MK12 SPR. It is almost identical to the navy version.

The Warsaw Pact:

Most First-Line Pact units would have the more accurate and easier shooting AK-74 in inventory. Reserve units would also have AK-74s as well. Mobilization Only units would have 7.62mm X 39mm AKMs and some Pact countries (like Bulgaria & Romania) would still be using belt fed RPDs as SAWs. The final waves would most likely be armed with the SKS battle rifle and RPDs. In fact, several Eastern European countries issued the SKS to police units as well.
The SKS gets a bad rap compared to the AK. It is actually EASIER for poorly trained troops to use than an AK. Here's why.

- The SKS has a safety that can be manipulated by the firing hand WITHOUT taking it off the weapon. An SKS shooter will engage an enemy from safe MUCH FASTER than an AK shooter.

- The SKS has a last round bolt hold open and its open top design lets the shooter SEE he is out. The AK user must manipulate the bolt to ensure that he hasn't had a stoppage instead.

-The SKS reload is a bit faster for a novice shooter. The AK shooter must rock in a magazine and then reach under or over the rifle to rack the bolt to chamber a round ALL WITH THE WEAK HAND.
The SKS shooter holds the weapon to his shoulder in a firing position with his weak hand and grabs a stripper clip with his STRONG hand. He then seats the clip in the guide on the bolt face and pushes down on the bullets. He then sweeps his firing hand (with the empty stripper clip between his thumb and trigger finger) back and down (the bolt closes AUTOMATICLY as the clip is swept away) to the trigger (a very short trip) to resume firing. A typical shooter can reload an AK in about 4 seconds. That same shooter can reload an SKS in 3 seconds. The SKS is faster.


These are the most common versions of weapons that would be READILY available in large numbers for the troops.

[WallShadow]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

<SNIP>

The Warsaw Pact:

Most First-Line Pact units would have the more accurate and easier shooting AK-74 in inventory. Reserve units would also have AK-74s as well. Mobilization Only units would have 7.62mm X 39mm AKMs and some Pact countries (like Bulgaria & Romania) would still be using belt fed RPDs as SAWs. The final waves would most likely be armed with the SKS battle rifle and RPDs. In fact, several Eastern European countries issued the SKS to police units as well.
The SKS gets a bad rap compared to the AK. It is actually EASIER for poorly trained troops to use than an AK. Here's why.

- The SKS has a safety that can be manipulated by the firing hand WITHOUT taking it off the weapon. An SKS shooter will engage an enemy from safe MUCH FASTER than an AK shooter.

- The SKS has a last round bolt hold open and its open top design lets the shooter SEE he is out. The AK user must manipulate the bolt to ensure that he hasn't had a stoppage instead.

-The SKS reload is a bit faster for a novice shooter. The AK shooter must rock in a magazine and then reach under or over the rifle to rack the bolt to chamber a round ALL WITH THE WEAK HAND.
The SKS shooter holds the weapon to his shoulder in a firing position with his weak hand and grabs a stripper clip with his STRONG hand. He then seats the clip in the guide on the bolt face and pushes down on the bullets. He then sweeps his firing hand (with the empty stripper clip between his thumb and trigger finger) back and down (the bolt closes AUTOMATICLY as the clip is swept away) to the trigger (a very short trip) to resume firing. A typical shooter can reload an AK in about 4 seconds. That same shooter can reload an SKS in 3 seconds. The SKS is faster.


These are the most common versions of weapons that would be READILY available in large numbers for the troops.

So I take it the SKS that had been converted to the AK mag magazine adapter would suffer some or all of the flaws of the AK itself?

[Draq]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

So I take it the SKS that had been converted to the AK mag magazine adapter would suffer some or all of the flaws of the AK itself?

A bit. The sks does have a bit longer barrel. But I think the mag conversion was a bit more popular I'm America, than Europe.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by Draq

A bit. The sks does have a bit longer barrel. But I think the mag conversion was a bit more popular I'm America, than Europe.

Unless there are two different ways that this was done, all the ones I have ever seen they do not use AK magazines, similar but not the same. Due to how the SKS originally does not have detectable magazines it is more complex to give it the AK type magazines.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Unless there are two different ways that this was done, all the ones I have ever seen they do not use AK magazines, similar but not the same. Due to how the SKS originally does not have detectable magazines it is more complex to give it the AK type magazines.

There was a Chicom variant using actual ak47/akm mags, then there was the aftermarket sks mag with w tail to engage the forward hinge on a stock sks. The ak mag variant goes for a premium in real life.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by WallShadow

So I take it the SKS that had been converted to the AK mag magazine adapter would suffer some or all of the flaws of the AK itself?

There are two ways to convert the SKS to detachable magazines.

The first is to use the "Duckbill" magazine pioneered in the 1990's by TAPCO and made by several companies today. The "Duckbill Magazine" gets its name from a projecting "flange" located at the nose of the magazine just below the feed lips side of the magazine. This projection is used to hold or "lock" the magazine into a special recess cut into the bottom of the SKS's receiver that holds the SKS's original integral 10 round magazine in place. Converting the SKS to use a "Duckbill Magazine" is extremely easy. You simply disassemble the SKS and take off the integral magazine and reassemble the SKS SANS THE INTEGRAL MAGAZINE. The cutout and the SKS's factory original magazine release (to dump the integral magazine's rounds), located in front of the trigger guard, hold the "Duckbill Magazine" in place. There are NO special parts needed but there are a few issues with using these magazines. The first is that the magazine release (originally intended to only dump the integral mag's ammo) is pretty small. It can be difficult to operate under stress. The second issue is that removing the integral magazine also removes the magazine follower (leaving a hole in the bottom of the receiver). This removes the bolt hold open feature of the SKS and the bolt will close on an empty chamber. The third is that a closed bolt will ride into the top of the magazine cutout below the barrel. This means that a "Duckbill Magazine" CANNOT be loaded into an SKS WHILE THE BOLT IS CLOSED. With no bolt hold open, the shooter MUST hold the bolt BACK (in the open position) while inserting the magazine. Magazines are inserted "duckbill" first and then rocked back until the tab on the back of the magazine is grabbed by the SKS's magazine release tab. This makes the loading of a "Duckbill Magazine" more complex (and much slower) than an AK reload. Ironically, "Duckbilled SKSs" were a VERY COMMON weapon among US Militias (the private ones that formed to oppose the '94 Assault Weapons Ban) because magazines were $20 and an SKS was around $100 to $150 for NEW Chinese production (Norinco). The normal "combat loading" of a "Duckbill SKS" is to use what is known as The Iraqi Marine Reload for AKs. It involves holding the rifle to your right shoulder by the bolt handle (held by your right hand) while reloading with your left hand. THIS IS A VERY UNSTABLE RELOAD (rifles have been dropped during this reload).

The second method of converting SKS rifles to use AK mags involves a replacement bolt and dropping the integral magazine as well. This method CAN require "fitting" by a gunsmith (AVE: Gunsmithing) to get the new bolt to properly "head-space" in the chamber but doesn't usually involve modifying the actual SKS (so you could convert it back to original specs). This method MAY replace the SKS mag dump release with a proper AK paddle or it may leave the SKS release "as is." The SKS can use stock AK magazines and the bolt hold-open is also removed. The reload is identical to an AK reload. This "conversion" was pioneered by the Chinese and they had several thousand conversions in the 90's. Today, you can buy a "drop-in" conversion kit for the SKS. The cost is around $200 US.

Neither of these conversions can match the speed of a stock SKS reload and there is a danger that magazines being held by the stock SKS "dump release" may disengage and fall out of the rifle under "rough handling" (like in combat). I would make a converted rifle save by rolling ABOVE it's Wear Number on 1D10 when handled roughly, or the magazine dumps from the rifle.

Conventional Conversions:

I guess I should mention that US shooters have two other options for the SKS. They can install an integral 5 round magazine designed just like the original one (and primarily used for hunting) for about $15 US, and an "extended" integral 20 round magazine that can be found for about $30 US. These can both be fed by the original rifle's stripper clips. the 5-round mag is VERY COMMON (for hunting) but the 20-round mag is fairly rare.

[Draq]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

There are two ways to convert the SKS to detachable magazines.... Etc...

That about covers it. What alot of those militia an prepper types don't understand is that the SKS wasn't supposed to be used like an AK... Hence why it wasn't built like on. The SKS is a sort-of carbine/battle rifle. To be used like a battle rifle while using a lighter more manageable intermediate cartridge, more suited for acurrate medium range fire. Like a step up from an m1 carbine.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Draq

That about covers it. What alot of those militia an prepper types don't understand is that the SKS wasn't supposed to be used like an AK... Hence why it wasn't built like on. The SKS is a sort-of carbine/battle rifle. To be used like a battle rifle while using a lighter more manageable intermediate cartridge, more suited for acurrate medium range fire. Like a step up from an m1 carbine.

Yep, it was built before the doctrine of mass charges that the AK-47 was to be used in. Preppers would be better off using it for hunting and emergencies.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by .45cultist

Yep, it was built before the doctrine of mass charges that the AK-47 was to be used in. Preppers would be better off using it for hunting and emergencies.

Most people don't realize that Simonov's Carbine (the SKS) was actually designed in 1943 and even saw limited service in the last months of WW2. This rifle had what most infantrymen considered essential features based on the Russian experience during the Great Patriotic War. The magazine bolt hold-open (copied from the Garand), fixed bolt handle, internal 10-round magazine (with Enfield traits), and semi-auto function (a modified Tokarev design) were DEMANDED by field veterans, as was the "intermediate cartridge" M1943 (7.62mm X 39mm) which was originally designed SPECIFICALLY for the SKS (and influenced by the StG-45). The AK series was designed after the SKS and borrowed several features from the SKS (which is why their gas pistons and ammo are interchangeable).

I like to change my ranges on the AK series to match their "real world" accuracy in the hands of average shooters. The differences in range can be mostly attributed to each rifle's caliber (due to bullet drop) and overall sight radius. Sight radius has a large impact on long range shooting while not really affecting short range marksmanship that much. This gives the rifles slightly different performance parameters, which adds "character" to each weapon type.

*SKS (original model with 20" barrel)= Base Range: 50m
*SKS "Airborne Model" (with 16" barrel)= Base range: 45m
RPD SAW (20.5" barrel)= Base Range: 50m
AK-47/AKM (16" barrel)= Base Range: 45m
RPK SAW (20" barrel)= Base Range: 50m
"Draco" style AKM SMG (12" barrel)= Base Range: 30m
AK-74 (16" barrel)= Base Range: 50m
RPK-74 SAW (20" barrel)= Base Range: 55m
AKS-74U (original Afghan War version with a 7.5" barrel)= Base Range: 30m
AKS-74U (1990's redesigned version with a 12" barrel)= Base Range: 35m

*The SKS rifles (especially the Yugoslavian designed "Airborne models") are very likely to have adapters and gas cutoff valves to fire rifle grenades as part of their basic designs. The Balkan countries (Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Romania) continued to field rifle grenades until the 21st Century.

These are the ranges I use to differentiate between models and generations of models in my game.

[swaghauler]

Tim over at the Military Arms Channel has a new upload about "new in the box" (factory refurbished) Yugo SKS rifles. Check out his video to see his Vintage Yugo SKS with the rifle grenade launcher on it. It is the "old style" launcher with the gas cutoff for using blanks or "launching cartridges" (NOT the same in power) to propel the grenade. It has the multi-ring set up much like the older WW2 US grenade launchers. You screw the grenade onto the launcher and the further on you screw it, the longer the range the rifle will launch it. Most launchers have 3 or 4 settings (identified by the number of "rings" or ridges on the launcher) but some have as many as 6 settings for launch range. Ian at Forgotten Weapons also has a good upload on the M1 Garand's WW2 Launcher.

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Another rifle with issues is the AN-94. This rifle has a VERY POOR reliability record. The Soviets gave about 2000 to several Spetznaz and Marine units for testing...

All the reports, articles, and shows I've seen and read seem to point to Spetsnaz preferring updated versions of the AKM (such as the AK-100 series) to anything else they get issued.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

All the reports, articles, and shows I've seen and read seem to point to Spetsnaz preferring updated versions of the AKM (such as the AK-100 series) to anything else they get issued.

This is ABSOLUTELY true. Larry Vickers tests Russian Alpha Team member's rifles on his Youtube channel. I was surprised to see that the Russian military will buy foreign products (most notably US ones), but they had us optics mounts on their rifles, though admittedly, they were copies of a Polish designed mount that were made in Texas.

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I made a post in the "Odd Treasure Troves" thread about zoos/wildlife parks being a possible source of firearms. Many zoos around the world have firearms trained personnel to take care of any dangerous animals that escape and so on.
These places can provide a small quantity of civilian shotguns and rifles but most people don't associate zoos/wildlife parks with a cache of firearms.

This is the article from The Firearms Blog that I linked to in the other thread, it has much more detail than I've mentioned here.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...irearm+Blog%29

The Kansas City zoo has a .600 H&H double rifle and qualifies employees on the weapon, but would probably leave animals' demise to police shotguns.

[mpipes]

I thought I would share my notes on German and UK assault rifles. I use a modified version of the V2.2 timeline.

G-11
Twilight 2000 Notes: Production of the G-11 began very rapidly in late 1990, and just as quickly slowed and stopped in early 1991. The ammo problems were pronounced and though HK continued to work the ammo issue, the gun was withdrawn from general issue. By 1992, Heckler & Koch was concentrating on the G-41 and the then-upcoming G-36. Despite some 5,000 examples of the G-11 being produced by 2000, most of them had been withdrawn as pre-war stocks of ammunition were largely expended and new stocks were almost impossible to make using the production methods available by 2000. However, one source for ammo was able to keep a trickle of ammo going, basically testing batches, but not enough to support extensive combat use. About 1,000 of the G-11 were produced for various trials and testing and another 4,000 of the G-11K2. Most of those were issued to German special operation forces and some airborne units. Almost all were recalled in 1993, but a handful were found in limited use during the war. The ammo was improved somewhat since 1991, but the weapon was still not considered reliable and few used it as a primary weapon.

Merc 2000 Notes: This is a popular weapon for special ops forces operating in harsh climates, as by 2000 the ammo problem had been solved. If you encounter a force armed with the G-11, they are probably clandestine forces of a large national government or of someone who has a lot of money to spend on exotic weapons and ammunition.

G-36
Twilight 2000 Notes: When it became obvious that the G-11 was too expensive and complicated to produce, and that ammunition availability and reliability would become a major stumbling block, the G-41 was brought into full production instead and the plans for the G-36 accelerated greatly. General issue of the G-36 began in the fall of 1995, with just over 250,000 issued before the November 1997 nuclear exchanges, and several hundred more were salvaged from the destroyed H&K factories. Though examples of the G-36K were built at the same time as the standard G-36, many more were made by German special operations armorers using plans furnished by Heckler & Koch. Several hundred G-36s were produced to the G-36E standard and about 3,500 G-36Cs were produced.

Merc 2000 Notes: As German peacekeepers became a more common sight in the world, their G-36 rifles also became a more common sight.

G-41
Twilight 2000 Notes: The Heckler & Koch G-41 was rushed into production in 1990 for issue to the newly unified German Army when the G-11 became too expensive to produce along with ammo problems, and the G-36 was not yet developed. It was realized that the G-41 would serve as a stopgap measure to modernize and standardize the German military’s assault rifles to meet modern standards (including STANAG magazines and optical sight mounts) until a new rifle (the G-36) was fully developed. With the outbreak of the Twilight War, the G-41 saw continued production and service and proved to be an effective and reliable weapon, with most German troops initially going to war carrying G-41s. With the advent of the G-36 design, the days of the G-41 seemed to be short-lived. Only the use of nuclear weapons forestalled its replacement by the newer design. The G-41K, though not uncommon, is also not that common either. It was popular in the hands of rear-area troops as well as special ops types. The G-41 was also issued to territorial and militia troops and were found exclusively in several Jaeger units raised in 1997. These also were the main NATO assault rifle in Free Polish Legion units formed in 1997.

Merc 2000 Notes: The only large-scale customers of the G-41 seem to be the military forces of El Salvador and Belize. This was not enough to keep the productions lines for the G-41 open, though spare parts are still being manufactured. As with the G-41, the only large-scale customers of the G-41K seem to be El Salvador and Belize. Their smaller-statured troops seemed to prefer this shorter version.

HK-33
Twilight 2000 Notes: With the outbreak of war, production of the HK-33A2 and GR-3Es were ramped up and many rifles were issued to the former East German military units still using AK types instead of the G-41, though the AK weapons were never completely replaced. The HK-33A2SG and HK-33A2SG1 were also procured in significant numbers along with GR-3 series weapons. Quantities of license-built HK-33A2s and GR-3 series weapons were also procured from Thailand and Malaysia, and even Mexico, by the Germans until replaced by the G-41 and G-36. By mid-1997, the HK-33s had been mostly replaced by G-36s or G-41s in front line combat units. This weapon also often formed the core of military-type rifles issued to most Western European militia units. In addition, it was difficult to find a community in the US or Central America where at least one person did not have either an HK-33 or HK-93. Older HK-93s were seemingly easy to convert to fully automatic fire. The HK-53 MICV was, in the Twilight 2000 timeline, the standard-issue firing port weapon for the Marder. As with the US M-231, many HK-53s were yanked out of wrecked Marders and put into ground service, often modified to accept a sliding wire stock. In addition, the HK-53 was issued to many other units, from cooks to special operations troops. Many HK-53s were also converted to HK-33A2, HK-33KA1, and HK-33KA2 standards.

Merc 2000 Notes: The HK-33 and its variants could turn up in the strangest places, such as the bodyguard element for the Zairian president, and the guards for diamond mines in South Africa. It is even rumored that a tribe of Rhade in the highlands of Vietnam are primarily armed with the HK-33, though how the HK-33s got there is unknown. Germany, Thailand, and Malaysia still produce the HK-33 series along with a US producer. The GR-2A3, GR-3EA2, and GR-3KA2 are also fairly popular with mercenaries. The HK-32 series was also put in production, and the Macau Police and Egyptian special forces are known to have purchased these weapons from Malaysia. The Secret Service is also known to have purchased GR-3EA2s.

MPiK/MPiKS/MPiKM/MPiKMS
Twilight 2000 Notes: Widely dispersed, these weapons are fairly common in Africa. The MPiKM and MPiKMS had been almost entirely replaced by MPiK-74N and MPiKS-74N as primary issue to most DDR troops before unification. However, these were still the primary rifle found with many security and support troops in the eastern half of Germany when the Twilight war began. It became a favorite of civilian militia.

Thousands of parts kits were exported to the US and assembled for civilian sales until mid-1996 when remaining stocks went to new production of full automatic, military weapons.

Merc 2000 Notes: The MPiKM, MPiKMS, and MPiKMS-72 can be found virtually everywhere, since the Germans sold them all on the international market. Although production ceased in 1990 with reunification, the Germans quietly restarted production and export in 1998, mostly to Africa, Central and Southeast Asia. Very popular with mercenary units and in front line service in many Third World militaries, especially in Africa.

MPiAK-74N/MPAiKS-74N/MPiAK-74NK
Twilight 2000 Notes: Most German troops went to war with the G-41 and G-36 rifles, but the MPiAK-74N series was never completely replaced in the former East German reserve and territorial units. Even before the Twilight war began, large numbers of MPiAK-74Ns and MPiAKS-74Ns were converted to 5.56mm-NATO and had mostly replaced 5.45mm variants. A very few MPiAK-74NKs were likewise converted. This involved replacing the bolt, barrel, and rear sight and making some adjustments to the gas system. Afterwards, as G-36s and more G-41s became available, these rifles primarily went to militia units.

After the November 1997 nuclear strikes, efforts to orderly and completely replace the MPiAK-74N series essentially ceased. The MPiAKS-74NK remained assigned to many former East German tank and APC crews, as well as drivers, though quantities of HK-53s or GR-2s (usually with 40-round magazines) replaced and supplemented these MPiAKS-74NKs over time. The MPiAK-74N series weapons were issued to militia units as well. The MPiKS-74Ns also found its way into use by various NATO special ops and even French special ops in Kuwait. Many of the converted MPiAK-74N/N rifles ended up issued to British combat troops in Europe and the Middle East as they abandoned use of the L-85A1.

Merc 2000 Notes: The MPiAK-74Ns and MPAiKS-74Ns were for the most part withdrawn from German service. However, large quantities of MPiAK-74Ns, MPAiKS-74Ns, and MPiAKS-74NKs were sold on the international arms market, including to Turkey and several African nations. Quite common in Africa and Asia, where well over 500,000 were sold by the East German and reunified German governments.

StG-940
Twilight 2000 Notes: These guns were put back in production in 1994 and were issued as a family of common weapons to company sized units. Primarily issued to German Seabattalion and Royal Dutch marines, and new German Jaeger companies of light territorial infantry regiments formed after 1997. These were sometimes issued en masse to new militia companies in 1997 – 1999.

Merc 2000 Notes: These were placed in production in 1993 and saw wide spread sales to those few countries in Africa that could afford to replace their 7.62mm AKs with newer variants in 5.56mm. A 120 round drum becomes available for the LMG-944 in 1995.

G-3
Twilight 2000 Notes: By 2000, many withdrawn G-3 had been reissued to army units as well as militia. Many G-3 were also upgraded to G-3SG/1s with new match grade barrels and issued as a DMR to German army, Seebataillon, and reserve troops as well as militia. Many mountain troops held on to their G-3s and somehow, no one quite knows how, obtained enough Hensoldt 4×24 optical scopes and claw mounts to mount on all their G-3s. These mountain troops equipped with scoped G-3s extracted a terrible toll on Russian and other Pact troop.

In the Americas, semiauto G-3 variants were very popular in the US, and G-3s were the primary issue weapon to Mexican units. They were sometimes found being used by British troops.

Merc 2000 Notes: Extremely popular with those wanting a rifle with more punch than the 5.56mm NATO.

Enfield L-85
Twilight 2000 Notes: In the Twilight 2000 timeline, the L-85 series is considered a very expensive failure. Although problems had been noted for years, the Ministry of Defense before 1996 simply refused to acknowledge the problems. But as war loomed, NATO revoked approval to use the rifle for ammunition certification; a major embarrassment. This forced the MOD to finally admit the gun was not reliable and at least try and address the many shortcomings. The impetus came too late.

Most of the A1 variant have been ditched by 2000 by British troops in favor of both allied and enemy weapons as well as L1A1s that are more reliable and don’t fall apart. As the Germans faced defeat in November 1996, the British were still scrambling to procure acceptable replacement rifles, having settled on ordering off-the-shelf Sabre A3 rifles and Diemaco C7 and C-8 series rifles procured as replacement. With a profound shortage of weapons, the only real choice was to pull a great many L1A1s out of storage for issue, but substantial numbers of AK-74Ns (MPiAK-74Ns and MPAiKS-74Ns) were obtained from the Germans by the BOAR and issued. As the war began, British troops carried a variety of weapons, which gave unit armorers fits as they were forced to deal with profoundly different weapons.

Although the upgraded L-85A2 started becoming available in early 1997 on an emergency basis, only a relatively few were completed and issued. Except for limited numbers in the hands of British paratroopers and the Royal Marines, the L-85A2 is mostly unknown in the Twilight 2000 world. Very small numbers of the L-85 Carbine were produced, mostly in the 290mm barrel version, but they have most of the same problems as the L-85A1 and are disfavored. The L-98A2 does not exist in the Twilight 2000 timeline. Most L-98A1’s have been converted into L-85A1’s or to semiautomatic fire, and issued to home-defense troops. Many discarded L-85A1s are in use by home-defense troops. Bottom line; there are more AK-74Ns converted to 5.56mmN in service with the British Army than L-85s, with large numbers of Sabre A3 rifles and Diemaco C7 and C-8 series rifles procured as replacement. There are also a great many L1A1s in use.

One of the senior officials seen as most responsible for the debacle, Lord Michael Kent, was discovered murdered in his house in London in October 1997 with evidence suggesting a Royal Marine committed the crime. Among other things, an L-85 magazine was found next to the body. However, the murder investigation effectively permanently ended when TDM occurred.

Merc 2000 Notes: British special operations prefer the M-16 series and its variants to the L-85A1; other than that, most British troops are still using the L-85A1 or A2. It is almost unknown anywhere else in the world, except with the Gurkhas and Jamaican armed forces. There are about equal numbers of both versions of the L-85 Carbine; numbers of both versions are small. The short-barreled versions have the same problems as the L-85A1, while longer-barreled versions are based on the L-85A2. The upgrade to A2 standard progresses relatively slowly.

L-1A1
Twilight 2000 Notes: Like many such weapons, L-1A1s were again issued in Britain when supplies of other weapons became scarce. Towards the end of the war, it was also turned into a substitute sniper weapon, after being modified with Picatinny Rails and bipods.

Merc 2000 Notes: Due to the widespread issue in the world, mercenary organizations liked the L-1A1. In addition, they often turned up in the hands of rebel forces in various countries.


On a personal note, I own a L-1A1 built from a surplus UK parts kit. The stock is marked with two "X" kill marks. I've been told troopers in 3 PARA often marked their kills that way. Anyone here know if that is true?