Aliens - 1986 movie (was Dog Soldiers)

[Webstral]

Having waited for others to say something positive, I'll weigh in. I want my $14 back. My time could have been better invested seeing The Avengers again or just staying home and writing. Apparently, I'm a hater.

[Raellus]

You're entitled to hate. The studios really hyped it up the last couple of weeks- too much, I think- and the final product didn't quite deliver. I'd like to see it again to see if maybe I can pick up something I may have missed the first time.

I saw the Avengers in the theater also and I had some of the same problems with it that I did with Prometheus. The plot was too complicated by half and the baddies were so much canon fodder (a little of that goes a long way, IMHO, and Avengers ran with it for a good 20 minutes). Avengers did make me LOL a few times and I do like Whedon dialogue but, overall, I thought it was pretty overrated. Given the choice, I would see Prometheus again. My wife, who saw both with me, would go with Avengers.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I don't particularly like the superhero genre, too overblown for my tastes so I haven't seen the Avengers but I'm also one of the people completely turned-off by the fact that it's a Whedon movie and so I most likely never will see it. I think Whedon's incapable of writing a mature/sophisticated/complex script and falls back on the same plot points in everything he's written.

As for Prometheus, it seems it is absolutely one of those movies that you either like or hate. It doesn't spoon-feed people the answers (which is all too common in movies these days and something I utterly despise) and probably it's one of those movies that rewards the "initiated", i.e. those who know a lot about the other Alien movies and Scott's other movies (specifically, BladeRunner). It also ties in with the H.P. Lovecraft tale At The Mountains Of Madness and specifically with the legend of the titan Prometheus.

[Targan]

Ah, Prometheus. Saw it today. Much to love, but much not to love also. The future tech, the spaceships, the special effects, all good. The script writing, the behaviour of most of the characters, some of the basic science... utter crap. Any RL archaeologist seeing how the two married "archeologists" acted on archeological sites in the movie would want to slap them into unconsciousness. The lemming-like need for a bunch of the characters to throw themselves into life-threatening danger was breathtakingly frustrating.

*SPOILERS*

Hopefully a sequel will answer some of the big questions raised in the film. Like where the Predators fit in. I suspect the Engineers created the black ooze and other bioweapons as part of an ongoing war with the Predators. One thing that confused me was that the Engineers had near enough to identical DNA to modern humans. But some of the contact on Earth with the Engineers was 35,000 years ago in Scotland. There were no Homo Sapiens in Scotland at that time so the contact must have been with Neanderthals, and Neanderthals would have DNA with some pretty distinct differences to modern humans. So how does all that work? And how does it work that we have a fossil record showing the evolution of non-human primates all the way through to Homo Sapiens? For me it's pretty clear that humans evolved here. Did Engineer DNA spark the evolution of primates but early primates had spectacularly mutated Engineer DNA that slowly evolved back into modern human/Engineer DNA? Cough*bullshit*cough.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

** TOTALLY SPOILER **

Three things I'd like to throw in,

1. Prometheus is a sci-fi B-movie replicating an earlier Ridley Scott sci-fi B-movie (using the same plot points, including killing off all the crew until only one lone woman is left, and even the same camera angles/shots in some cases). And it's seriously funny - the man seeking eternal life creates artificial life and then gets beaten to death with the head of the "man" he created! It's hilarious!

It deals with "things man was not meant to know", just like H.P. Lovecraft writes in his Cthulhu stories - there are Elder Beings in the universe, some have motives that are utterly unknown to us and will never be know. The first movie dealt with a Lovecraftian horror, it can't be killed without risk of killing yourself, it's completely alien to us and it cares not one whit about us. It's for exactly this reason that Guillermo del Toro decided not to push ahead with his film version of Lovecraft's story "At The Mountains Of Madness". He considered that Scott had beaten him to the punch because "Prometheus" follows the same story.

"Prometheus" is not a "hard-science" movie, it's a sci-fi B-movie harking back to the 1950s with all the fears of atomic science unleashing giant ants, giant gila monsters or Godzilla to punish us for playing with the metaphorical fire. Just like the title hints at - play with fire and you will get burnt, play with the gods (or try to be god) and you will get burnt.

2. The movie is not going to give answers to everything, not to the characters in the movie nor to the audience watching it. One of the themes is that there are some questions you will never know the answer to, you must accept what you have and accept it on faith. All the people who saw the movie and are seeking answers are doing exactly what the characters in the movie were doing. Scott has given you no answer, just like the characters in the movie received no answer - you're interactively part of the story.

3. The Predators are highly unlikely to feature in any sequel as Scott does not consider them part of Alien movie lore despite the Predator movies hinting that there's a connection.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

3. The Predators are highly unlikely to feature in any sequel as Scott does not consider them part of Alien movie lore despite the Predator movies hinting that there's a connection.

It's a helluva lot more than a hint. And once you've let the genie out of the bottle you can't cram it back in.

There's no reason you can't combine hard science and good science fiction. Heck, the original Alien film was fine as far as hard science goes. Same with Aliens, pretty much. Prometheus is what you get when a series of different writers go to work on what was probably a pretty reasonable script to start with and slowly give it the death of a thousand cuts. And it's also highly symptomatic of what you get when you've got a nice, fat, juicy budget and a target audience with a highly tenuous (if that) grasp of genetics, chemistry, ancient history and paleoanthropology.

I'm firmly of the belief that the best films (or TV programs or whatever) educate at the same time as they entertain.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

It's a helluva lot more than a hint. And once you've let the genie out of the bottle you can't cram it back in.

You can if you're rebooting the franchise. I'm not clear on whether this film is intended to be a prequel or a reboot? If the latter, then going forward the whole Predator link (and the events of both Alien Vs Predator films) can presumably be disregarded by the writers if they wish.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Six

You can if you're rebooting the franchise. I'm not clear on whether this film is intended to be a prequel or a reboot? If the latter, then going forward the whole Predator link (and the events of both Alien Vs Predator films) can presumably be disregarded by the writers if they wish.

Hard to say. The CEO of Weyland Corporation in Alien vs Predator was a middle-aged Charles Bishop Weyland. The CEO of Weyland Corporation in Prometheus is a very elderly Peter Weyland. The two films are set 89 years apart. I guess Peter Weyland could be Charles Weyland's son.

The sad thing is that the AvP films (well IMO certainly the first one) were better than the later Aliens films. I'd be happier to see Ridley Scott et al keep the AvP canon and dump Alien 3 and 4 than keep 3 and 4 and pretend that the AvP films didn't happen. I'd be happiest of all if Ridley Scott just wrapped it all up nicely together somehow. I find that 99% of the time what I want in a film isn't what I get. Then again I accept the fact that I'm probably a good 20 to 30 IQ points higher than the average target audience and have a damn sight better understanding of how the universe works.

[Rainbow Six]

Originally Posted by Targan

The sad thing is that the AvP films (well IMO certainly the first one) were better than the later Aliens films. I'd be happier to see Ridley Scott et al keep the AvP canon and dump Alien 3 and 4 than keep 3 and 4 and pretend that the AvP films didn't happen. I'd be happiest of all if Ridley Scott just wrapped it all up nicely together somehow.

Yep, I'd agree with most of that (not sure whether I'd keep the second AvP!). To be honest I pretty much lost interest after Aliens...I don't think I've even seen the third one all the way through, only bits of it.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

The "Aliens and Predators as part of the same universe" idea is only because of an FX set-dresser's joke, really.

[Webstral]

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

Graphic novels, novels and, of course, two films.

[Webstral]

The films, I've heard, were the result of the popularity of the graphic novel.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Webstral

The films, I've heard, were the result of the popularity of the graphic novel.

I think you're right there. I read at least the first (non graphic) novel and it was actually pretty good.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Originally Posted by Webstral

I'd heard that there was a graphic novel pitting Aliens and Predators against each other.

Yeah, the AvP comics came first, IIRC.

There's several; Dark Horse Comics traded in a lot of AvP cachet back in the 90s when we were all expecting an Aliens sequel at any time - to the point of publishing a sort of "continuing adventures of Newt, Hicks and Ripley". of course when A3 washed all that away, later TPBs of that series retconned the names of the little girl and the marine, adding some new information about Ripley being cloned and bonding with the girl and the Hicks replacement due to their similarity to Hicks and Newt.

But what I said about the entirety of the AvP crossover being a set-dresser's joke is the truth. The "xenomorph" skull that appears just briefly in the Predator's ship in AvP2.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by raketenjagdpanzer

But what I said about the entirety of the AvP crossover being a set-dresser's joke is the truth. The "xenomorph" skull that appears just briefly in the Predator's ship in AvP2.

Sure, that was the origin of it all, but what's done is done. Film makers rolled with it, they made the Aliens vs Predator films, and now its established canon. And I for one think it's an excellent mix. I think it's very sad that Ridley Scott has nothing but contempt for the crossover canon.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Forward: Targan, I am not having a shot at you, I've been reading a lot of people's comments on Prometheus and there's a whole lot of haters out there. My comments are aimed at them in general.

As far as I know, Scott didn't say he had contempt for the AvP material, he just said that the two didn't mix. AvP was made simpy as a money maker for Fox, it has it's origins with Dark Horse wanting to make money out of the notion, just like the other comic crossovers like Batman vs. Superman or the old Universal Studios horror movies with Frankenstein versus Wolfman versus Dracula and so on. They may exist but it doesn't mean they are canon.

What started as a set-dressers little in-joke has been taken to heart by many but none of the film makers associated with the original Alien or Predator movies seriously considered doing a crossover. Dark Horse saw a way to make money and Fox picked up on it, it wasn't a film makers decision but a studio execs decision.

James Cameron had been working with Scott at one point to make further Alien movies and for various reasons and their other work, they didn't push ahead with it. Cameron was approached by Fox to continue the project and while he was interested, Fox wanted a money maker and suggested that the Predators be thrown in to make it more exciting.
Cameron said no because it destroys the integrity of both the Alien and Predator movies. Fox, seeing the chance to make a crowd pleaser and hence make lots of money, called Paul W.S. (Waste of Skin) Anderson in to make the AvP movie.

I've seen the first AvP movie and was not impressed, the leaps of logic and the lack of common sense displayed by the characters echoes all the criticisms that people throw at Prometheus. For example, one guy in the AvP movie decides that because (allegedly) the earlier civilizations used a decimal maths system, that the pyramid the characters are trapped in will change configuration every 10 minutes. Excuse me, what? That's a leap of logic so wide even Evel Knieval couldn't cross it.

It stuns me that people will critize Prometheus because they claim real scientists don't act like that or the science doesn't make any sense or the characters did stupid things but Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.

I work with "real scientists" (chemists, geochemists, geologists, geographers) and some of them are f**king morons, very smart in their selected field but completely stupid at real life. I've watched them drop cyanide powder and then stand around for minutes wondering what to do, I've watched them get sulphuric acid on their gloves then scratch their head then later complain that their head is itchy. Scientists are just like normal people and prone to all the same emotions and stupidities that normal people have. And in some cases they're worse.

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie but there is a lot more going on in this movie than can be seen on the surface.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

As far as I know, Scott didn't say he had contempt for the AvP material, he just said that the two didn't mix.

Admittedly I was massively paraphrasing. What Scott has said is that he's never seen the AvP films and has no interest in doing so. I interpreted that as contempt but I can't claim to know exactly what's in his head. For the record I think Ridley Scott is a genius. I've been watching his series Prophets of Science Fiction and absolutely loving it.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

For example, one guy in the AvP movie decides that because (allegedly) the earlier civilizations used a decimal maths system, that the pyramid the characters are trapped in will change configuration every 10 minutes. Excuse me, what? That's a leap of logic so wide even Evel Knieval couldn't cross it.

Yeah, that's an odd leap of logic. As far as I know, there are 60 minutes in an hour and 24 hours in a day because the Babylonians used a base 60 numbering system.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

It stuns me that people will critize Prometheus because they claim real scientists don't act like that or the science doesn't make any sense or the characters did stupid things but Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.

To me (and I'm just speaking for myself here) there are big differences between the superheroes genre and 'hard' science fiction like Alien et al, especially in terms of how far the viewer's suspension of disbelief is expected to stretch.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

I work with "real scientists" (chemists, geochemists, geologists, geographers) and some of them are f**king morons, very smart in their selected field but completely stupid at real life.

I know what you mean (my mum is a botanist and my stepfather is a marine biologist so I'm regularly exposed to scientists when visiting mum's place) but seriously, archaeologists would never tramp all over a dig site, they'd transect it and cautiously take to it with anything from shovels to toothbrushes. Both on earth and on LV-233 the "archaeologists" acted like criminal vandals.

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie but there is a lot more going on in this movie than can be seen on the surface.

That's all true. Well put.

[Raellus]

SSC, I'd like to thank you for pointing out the link between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness. I am reading it now, for the first time, and it's readily apparent how many other authors and movie makers have drawn upon it for inspiration. I bought a big tome of collected Lovecraft stories a year or so ago, read a few of them (including the Call of what's-its-face that is so influential) and then put it back on the shelf. I wouldn't have thought to pick it up again if it weren't for you.

I don't agree that Prometheus is a b-movie. Perhaps I have a different understanding of what a b-movie is. To my mind, it's a very low-budget effort with minimal or nonsensical story and generally poor acting. I don't think Prometheus met any of those criteria.

I liked the first Predator film (now there's a b-movie, at least acting-wise), but I was 15 or so when I saw it the first time. I was 16 or 17 when I saw the sequel and I didn't particularly care for it. I also didn't much care for the third Aliens film and the fourth one, IMHO, was complete rubbish. In the right hands, I think the two universes could coexist quite well. From what little I've seen or heard, the first two attempts fell far short of the mark. I will confess that I haven't seen any of the AvP movies. Judging purely by the previews, I figured they would all be wastes of time and money and tarnish the fond memories that I have of Aliens, a film I loved as a teenager (I must have seen it at least 30 times by now), and still really enjoy.

[Targan]

Ironically At the Mountains of Madness has been cited (in the AvP Wikipedia article) as being a major influence on the first Aliens vs Predator film. Raellus, the first Alien vs Predator film is worth watching. I remember being particularly struck by the founder of Weyland Corporation having Bishop's face (well vice versa really). That was an awesome touch IMO.

[Webstral]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

...Peter Parker can get bitten by a radioactive spider and suddenly climb up vertical surfaces and that's perfectly acceptable.

After all is said and done, Prometheus is just a movie, not real life. It's a mythological tale of horror set against the backdrop of science fiction and it replicates, in fact parallels, the Alien movie, in some cases using exactly the same cinematography and music score. It's up to the individual what they get out of the movie...

We each carry a readiness to suspend disbelief to a given work of fiction. Not only does that level vary from person to person, it varies within the same person depending on what we’re watching. You’re absolutely right that Spiderman as a concept requires a generous portion of suspension of disbelief before you even walk into the theater. “The Avengers” requires viewers to accept a super soldier who survived being frozen for decades who possesses a shield of supermetal, an extradimensional humanoid with power over lightning, a man who turns into an ogre with virtually limitless strength and invulnerable skin (where does that extra mass come from?), the existence of powered battle armor (not so far off) that runs on a self-contained power source small enough to fit in a cavity inside the wearer’s chest (still a ways off), a helicopter-type aircraft carrier, and on and on. Let’s not even talk about the costs to New York City of repairing all these superhero duke-‘em-outs. I’m willing to cut the superhero movies slack that I don’t generally cut science fiction, which means I’m using at least a double standard.

Within a given film, though, there ought to be some internal logic that goes beyond advancing the plot and creating the types of scenes that define the genre. “AvP” is a perfect example of a film that revolved around creating a handful of fanboy-type scenes and shitcanned the integrity (if such a word is appropriate) of its source material by so doing. I’ve always disliked the “Superman v Batman” stories because they are more a reflection of idle discussion taken too seriously and punctuated by the occasional “Dude, don’t bogart that” than an attempt to tell a good story. Many of the characters of “Prometheus” behave as though they are in a very different context. I would be willing to entertain the idea that the underlying message is that human beings are basically fools. This, however, seems inconsistent with the underlying message of “Alien” and “Aliens” that human beings suffer as a result of decisions made by leaders who have serious flaws.

Still, one needs to get what one needs to get from a film. I love “The Wrath of Khan”, but in reality the whole Star Trek universe is silly. The best that can be said is that a) everything shown is a metaphor adapted to its audience and b) when it’s at its best, internal logic is pretty good. When it’s at its worst, internal logic can be pretty shoddy.

[boogiedowndonovan]

I haven't seen Prometheus yet, but I plan to. (I'm not concerned about spoilers either, already looked it up on the internet). I ended up seeing the #1 movie in America the past weekend.

Anyone here a fan of the American TV show Lost? One of the creators of Lost is the screenwriter who edited the original script. If you've watched Lost, you will know there were a lot of plot twists and unresolved questions. I can see why there were a lot of mixed reviews, as I think a lot of people were expecting something similar to Aliens.

btw my comment about Prometheus being released early in Europe because of "some soccer tournament" was supposed to be a sarcastic type comment about the stereotypical American who doesn't pay attention to anything outside the USA.

-bdd

[DocSavage45B10]

Prometheus had much potential, and if Ridley Scott was still doing as much drugs as he was when he was making Bladerunner and Alien, it'd probably be better.

How do you throw away massive audience recognition and buy in of your visual design by saying that all the lovely HR Giger bits of the Space Jocky are his space suit, and he's really just a -Zendrati-, err, Promethian giant man thing.

Gah!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Raellus

SSC, I'd like to thank you for pointing out the link between Prometheus and At the Mountains of Madness...

You're most welcome. I've been a minor fan of Lovecraft's horror for some time and I'm constantly surprised (and often very happy) to find how much influence his writings had on latterday writers or movie makers. It's part of the reason I've gotten in so deep with the Alien movies along with the Evil Dead, Reanimator, The Thing, Prince Of Darkness and In The Mouth Of Madness movies amongst others.

[Raellus]

This could be cool. Or not.

http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Colonia...lonial+marines

[Raellus]

This is pretty neat.

http://toybox.io9.com/this-excellent...4/+charliejane

http://io9.com/neill-blomkamps-secre...e-f-1677082116

Apparently, the Aliens survival-horror video game (Alien: Isolation) is pretty good. Conversely, the Colonial Marines game was supposed crap.

[kato13]

Originally Posted by Raellus

Conversely, the Colonial Marines game was supposed crap.

One of the few games so bad it spawned a class action lawsuit
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/ali.../1100-6407789/

[Raellus]

Personally, I could do without all the sequels after Aliens and I have mixed feelings about Prometheus and the other rumored pseudo-prequels, but I must admit that this news has me a little hopeful.

http://io9.com/holy-xenomorphs-neill...lie-1686663351

If this is true, I hope he doesn't eff it up.

[Tegyrius]

Right there with you. My personal Aliens continuity has only two movies and a bunch of Dark Horse comics.

- C.

[Targan]

Originally Posted by Raellus

http://io9.com/holy-xenomorphs-neill...lie-1686663351

If this is true, I hope he doesn't eff it up.

Bloody brilliant.