Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Olefin]

there were still chains of command in a lot of modules - but in some that chain was pretty short (i.e. for instance Satellite Down) or mentioned but not majorly detailed (Last Submarine Trilogy)

To me the chain of command modules and sourcebooks were more like The Keep on the Borderlands - i.e. you have a safe area where you can rest, buy supplies, maybe recruit new men (after a character gets killed) - and then outside the Keep its the Wild West - so even if you get sent somewhere by "The Old Man" you are pretty much on your own once you clear the "civilized area"

thats why I liked Kings Ransom - chain of command mission puts you the wild areas and leads directly to taking your chances trying to get rich from the info you gather doing it - so you get to do both styles of the game -

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

To me the chain of command modules and sourcebooks were more like The Keep on the Borderlands - i.e. you have a safe area where you can rest, buy supplies, maybe recruit new men (after a character gets killed) - and then outside the Keep its the Wild West - so even if you get sent somewhere by "The Old Man" you are pretty much on your own once you clear the "civilized area"

That's a good analogy.

In the field, on a mission, the players are pretty much on their own.

-

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm not keen on the idea of T2k Poland being in the NATO camp either but, to be fair, AFAIK, FL never said v4 would align with the v1 timeline. They were pretty clear from pretty early on (pre-KS launch, at least) that v4 would lean closer to the v2 timeline (of which I am not a fan).

You're right, v2 was what I understood.

[Adm.Lee]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I'm not keen on the idea of T2k Poland being in the NATO camp either but, to be fair, AFAIK, FL never said v4 would align with the v1 timeline. They were pretty clear from pretty early on (pre-KS launch, at least) that v4 would lean closer to the v2 timeline (of which I am not a fan).

You're right, v2 was what I understood. I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

[Fallenkezef]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

You're right, v2 was what I understood. I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

The whole thing feels a bit off to me. Zero effort seems to be put into forward momentum post-launch such as sourcebooks and modules with shaky strecthgoals.

My gut says they are milking the fanbase to put out the bare minimum. I mean, ignoring all the resources they have available from such a vast fanbase?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Originally Posted by Fallenkezef

The whole thing feels a bit off to me. Zero effort seems to be put into forward momentum post-launch such as sourcebooks and modules with shaky strecthgoals.

My gut says they are milking the fanbase to put out the bare minimum. I mean, ignoring all the resources they have available from such a vast fanbase?

Well, you are not the only who feels that way...
I own Free League's Tales From the Loop because I love the premise of the game and also the artwork that inspired the game but I find the rules system very average and it seems to be slanted toward episodic play rather than long-term campaigns (I'll relate why I think this is important down below).
I also backed this kickstarter for a few reasons even though I had some doubts about the rules system they wanted to use.

Looking at some of the other Free League products and their release schedules, it does not appear to me as though they have much (if any) interest in long term development or support of their games. They seem to be sticking pretty close to the current mentality (and this is not just Free League but most RPG producers lately) of Core +1
That is to say, the company produces the Core books and then only 1 other book to support it. If they produce another book in the future, it's meant to update or replace that +1 from before.

It also seems to me that quite a few players of Year Zero games, don't actually stick with any YZ game for a long campaign. They play a few sessions, or even a lot of sessions and then they stop and jump ship to another YZ game.
Then they play that for a while and when it's no longer fresh, they jump to another YZ game until they have done a complete circle back to the first game.
Now, I am NOT saying they all do that but I have encountered quite a few that do and I believe a number of modern rules systems encourage that sort of play - straight into the action for some quick satisfaction, no long term plans necessary or desired.
Given that design philosophy, I will not be at all surprised if the entire 4th edition product line consists of what was offered on the kickstarter and then just one or two more books and then they will be off designing some new game.

[Raellus]

Hm.

Based on the response to the Kickstarter, it appears that FL has a cash cow just asking to be milked. They stand to make a lot by producing follow-on products, but their track record seems to indicate that's not something that they normally do. It seems strange that they wouldn't try to capitalize on the success of an existing property.

Hopefully, they change their minds. Perhaps the response to the Kickstarter will inspire them to switch it up and actually produce adventure modules and source books for T2k v4. Heaven knows there's already a market for it, and if v4 is any good, that market is likely going to grow.

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[Olefin]

Considering that they have me, Raellus and Legbreaker ready and willing to write new material and so far have managed to not have any of us writing for V4 I have to agree with you. Its great that Frank is writing the new Madonna book - but you have three writers ready to go that could have multiple sourcebooks or modules ready in very little time - and who would love to be part of the V4 effort.

To me that smacks of not really supporting the V4 game.

And that fact that they waited till the very end after a tidal wave of support - and a tidal wave of where the heck is it - to go "oh yea we might want to have the details of what is happening world wide in the initial release" shows that what they had in mind was a game centered in Poland and Sweden that lasts a few months and then on to the next game

[Lurken]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Considering that they have me, Raellus and Legbreaker ready and willing to write new material and so far have managed to not have any of us writing for V4 I have to agree with you. Its great that Frank is writing the new Madonna book - but you have three writers ready to go that could have multiple sourcebooks or modules ready in very little time - and who would love to be part of the V4 effort.

*cough* and me. But I have said to them that my book will be totally non-compatible with v4.

But you have a fair point about their outreach so far.

[Olefin]

Originally Posted by Lurken

*cough* and me. But I have said to them that my book will be totally non-compatible with v4.

But you have a fair point about their outreach so far.

oops sorry I missed you - but now that makes four authors on here (plus Frank Frey of course) who are wide open for making material for V4 - and so far only one (Frank) is on their list - plus who knows how many more who are ready and willing to get as much new official material published - and not just fan canon material - and official material makes them money after all where fan canon doesnt (unless they offer it for sale versus for free like the fanzine)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And to be absolutely brutal about it, Frank Frey is a name that has resonance within the T2k fan community because he was involved with the original game.
Getting him onboard (in this case for one reason only, that is, to rewrite Black Madonna) is pretty much the same as getting one of your astronauts/cosmonauts to advertise your space programme - it's not being done for that astronauts ability to contribute more product, it's done to cash in on the astronaut's fame.

[Targan]

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Targan

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

On a totally unrelated note the ANZAC book is being delayed....
The reasons for that I'm sure are apparent to some of those who've commented above, but I am unable to confirm or deny my reasons for it at this point.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On a similar note, it's interesting to see that the Free League forums typically have two or more sections for each game they produce. Usually it's as follows: -
General
GM's Only
Swedish Corner

The section for Twilight: 2000 has only one heading - General.
This is also the situation for another non-Free League IP, The One Ring (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

One could infer from that situation, that Free League have more interest in the games they hold the IP for. Now that's not necessarily anything bad or evil, it's quite natural to want to promote the games you developed so you can earn something from all the work you put in.
But I would think that they would have extended the same "love" towards any game they produce, regardless of the IP owner.
What that says about Free League's intent towards the IPs that they don't own but are licensing, is open to speculation.

[Adm.Lee]

A little more on Poland not being in the WPact, and the Pact not existing.

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

This feels like a bait & switch to me, one of the reasons I backed it was the assurance that the timeline would match ... the earlier history. Now that they have my money, "Oh, just a few touch-ups..."

... I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

I've been thinking about this occasionally over the weekend, and I feel now that I may have reacted too strongly. I'm not going to demand a refund, I will attempt to give the game a fair shot when I get to see it. It's still a little bitter, but I'm not going to spend the time to try and track down where and when "I was lied to". After all, I know my memory is shoddy enough that I need to take notes where it's important!

After all, as a GM, when it arrives I can always deep-six the pieces I don't like and swap in my preferences, as seen in multiple posts on this forum just recently.

Having said that, so far, it stretches my credulity that the reviving USSR, alone, could take on NATO (possibly expanded with Poland and others?) and hold on for years. Speculation: is there still a Soviet war with the PRC? That might work to the Soviet's benefit, if there isn't.

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

Having said that, so far, it stretches my credulity that the reviving USSR, alone, could take on NATO (possibly expanded with Poland and others?) and hold on for years. Speculation: is there still a Soviet war with the PRC? That might work to the Soviet's benefit, if there isn't.

I agree with this 100%. IIRC, someone in the know mentioned that FL has the PRC allied with the USSR in v4. That evens the odds just a bit. My memory could be faulty on this point, though.

-

[Adm.Lee]

OK, 'cause a neutral PRC would be in a lot better shape to dominate the 21st century than a neutral France. IMO.

[Legbreaker]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

OK, 'cause a neutral PRC would be in a lot better shape to dominate the 21st century than a neutral France. IMO.

And without strong international powers to hold them in check, dominate they would. China has long been known to have expansionist aspirations. With the US, UK, etc tied down elsewhere, what's to stop them rolling through south east asia and beyond? Harsh language and disapproving looks?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Legbreaker

Not bad at all.

None of that's in 4th though, not a single bit.

I would hope not since I have never posted my alternate history in its entirety anywhere online. I simply use it to show that you CAN have a post PACT Russia that's dangerous to the US and NATO.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by hell-fish

I like this a lot. Good job.

Just like your posting, it's simply a quick alternate history to validate a resurgent Russia in a V2.2 timeline. Since my players are enamored of my Africa modern-day MERC campaign, the alternate history is just gathering dust.

I do kind of wish that Free League had considered a 2030 conflict with:
Russia
China
NK
Iran
Syria
and maybe Turkey switching allegiance

Versus...

NATO
Japan
SK
The ANZACS

That could be an interesting take on Twilight 2030.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Targan

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

Having experienced both MUTANT and FORBIDDEN LANDS, I'm not sure how they plan on handling the crunch of modern combat (full-auto, explosives, enhanced guided munitions, etc...) so I'm waiting until I can get my hands on a copy. Even if the system doesn't work for me, I'll "data mine" it like I did TW2K13. There's LOTS of good stuff in TW2K13 like the CUF rules, the scavenge rules, and the skills stuff.

[comped]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Having experienced both MUTANT and FORBIDDEN LANDS, I'm not sure how they plan on handling the crunch of modern combat (full-auto, explosives, enhanced guided munitions, etc...) so I'm waiting until I can get my hands on a copy. Even if the system doesn't work for me, I'll "data mine" it like I did TW2K13. There's LOTS of good stuff in TW2K13 like the CUF rules, the scavenge rules, and the skills stuff.

I adore a lot of the extra careers 13 had, and some of the sidebars in the timeline were fairly well written. Actually, I didn't mind the timeline as an attempt to update the game either. Not perfect, but nothing is.

[pansarskott]

Originally Posted by StainlessSteelCynic

On a similar note, it's interesting to see that the Free League forums typically have two or more sections for each game they produce. Usually it's as follows: -
General
GM's Only
Swedish Corner

The section for Twilight: 2000 has only one heading - General.
This is also the situation for another non-Free League IP, The One Ring (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

No need for a GM section until there's a game available, perhaps? I don't know if the other forums were divided from start. Maybe the sub-forums were added in response to how many posts are made, or the need for language-specific forums.

[Olefin]

Make your voices heard as much as you can with Free League as early and as often as you can - we made this possible not them - if we hadnt supported the Kickstarter there wouldnt have been a game - as such dont sit back and hope they release a good game with a realistic background and campaign setting

Make your voices heard because this wont be just a pdf - it will be published in paper form - and we all know how hard it is to fix it if its screwed up and already out there in printed format and they find out the hard way that they ended up pissing off a lot of the fan base because we stayed silent and counted on them to do the right thing.

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind that confirmed by the publisher this is NOT a modified V2.2 timeline - it’s V4 - a whole new timeline and campaign set up written by people who in the main have not played the game and are not members of this board or other boards - meaning that when the time comes to comment please do so - if not don’t be pissed or disappointed with the final outcome.

It will be up to them if they do listen to us - if they don’t then we may have wasted our money. But it won’t be on us that the new game fails or have issues.

And also frankly it would be nice to not have background, canon and timeline arguments or complaints for the rest of eternity on the new version - i.e. better to have input before the final version not after.

[Lurken]

I can only agree with what Olefin have said. Speak now, speak often and speak with passion about what you love about T2k and want to se in T2k:FL.