OT: Putin's War in Ukraine

[kato13]

Like I needed another reason to support Ukraine. Tapping into my (and perhaps some US policy makers) childhood nostalgia is brilliant.

Recent photos of disabled Russian vehicles in Ukraine

[shrike6]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REKLC3s30Mw


Admin edit. The need for this video led me to fix video embeds on the site (apparently YouTube changed the code a while back)

[Milano]

This is the best picture I have ever seen!

I am printing out a bunch of copies and replacing the photos in my wedding album. Maybe. I was just a kid when my Dad rented Red Dawn from Movies to Go. It may have been the reason why I got into Twilight 2000, or vice versa.

It has been my favorite movie since then, and I am at the least putting this as my screen saver...since my wife would probably eradicate my wedding tackle if I did anything to her album.

[kato13]

Fixed the youtube embed code, so we can see the scene that made us all love this movie. (starts 66 seconds in)




May the list of names on any future "Freedom Rock" be as short as possible.

[shrike6]

Originally Posted by kato13

Fixed the youtube embed code, so we can see the scene that made us all love this movie.

Thanks!

[Raellus]

I don't know how they're doing it. I wonder if they really are going to "fight to the end". What end? Will they surrender when their ammo runs out? When their food and water and medical supplies are exhausted?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ed-steel-plant

They must realize that there will be no rescue. I suppose their main objective now is to tie down as many Russian forces as possible for as long as possible. Perhaps they're hoping for the kind of immortality won by Sparta's 300 at Thermopylae but, really, how many people are actually willing to go that far and fight to the death?

Whatever happens from this point on, I really admire their bravery and resolve. The Azov Battalion's (now regiment?) political origins and alignment are troubling, to be sure (those, I don't admire), but maybe this ordeal will somehow be redemptive, in that regard.

Do they fight to the death, or surrender with honor? What do you think?

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[swaghauler]

Those tags showing the "Wolverines" is the tag being used by an American "foreign legion" unit in Ukraine. Operator Starsky (whose video on the dismantling of that Russian drone with the Canon digital camera I posted on this forum) actually mentions them in his video. They are even called that now by the Ukrainian forces. There are actually a fair number of US and Canadian Veterans serving in Ukraine. Most went there saying that they didn't like bullies and some went because they missed war. Some other YouTubers posting Ukraine footage other than Operator Starsky (an actual Ukrainian) are Civ Div and the Funker group.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I don't know how they're doing it. I wonder if they really are going to "fight to the end". What end? Will they surrender when their ammo runs out? When their food and water and medical supplies are exhausted?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ed-steel-plant

They must realize that there will be no rescue. I suppose their main objective now is to tie down as many Russian forces as possible for as long as possible. Perhaps they're hoping for the kind of immortality won by Sparta's 300 at Thermopylae but, really, how many people are actually willing to go that far and fight to the death?

Whatever happens from this point on, I really admire their bravery and resolve. The Azov Battalion's (now regiment?) political origins and alignment are troubling, to be sure (those, I don't admire), but maybe this ordeal will somehow be redemptive, in that regard.

Do they fight to the death, or surrender with honor? What do you think?

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What choice do they have? Putin and the Russian Military leaders have been VERY CLEAR about what they are going to do to those fighters. Look at what happened in BUCHA Ukraine when Putin was pushed back from Kyiv.

If your only choice is between being tortured to death and fighting to the death, which would you choose?

Ukraine is CLEARLY winning the STRATEGIC WAR here. When they capture Russian soldiers, the Ukrainians do not torture or abuse them. The prisoners are fed and treated medically. Ukraine then allows them to call family or friends to tell them that the soldier is ok. Also, when the Ukrainian fighters engage the Russian conscripts in battle, if a pause occurs, the Ukrainians will tell the conscripts if they drop their weapons and flee, they will NOT be fired upon. Many Russian conscripts are doing just that.

This allows three things to happen. FIRST (and most importantly) it gives the low-morale Russian conscripts an "out" in a fight. They KNOW they can just flee and the Ukrainians won't shoot them in the back. Every time this happens, those surviving troops tell other Russian conscripts what happened. This causes THAT RESPONSE to spread through the Russian Army like an infection.
SECOND, it allows Ukraine to take possession of desperately needed resources they might have otherwise had to destroy.
THIRD, It shows that despite everything Putin and Russia have done to Ukraine that she retains her civility and dignity. This puts her on the "right side of history" once the war crimes trials begin.

There are outliers but I can understand (if not justify) the motives behind those actions. There are videos showing certain Ukrainian units (mostly in the Donbas) shooting surrendering Russian soldiers in the lower legs. From what I have gathered on the internet (and not from the most reliable sources), this was done in retaliation for Russian abuse of Ukrainian POWs who were returned with broken legs and injuries consistent with beatings. There is also a practical (if barbaric) reason for this... the now-wounded Russian conscript cannot be returned to the lines. It does violate the Geneva and Hague conventions but so does shooting civilians in the head.

[swaghauler]

Here is Operator Starsky explaining the concept of Russian Peace.

https://youtu.be/h4WEBwsuQf0


Swag

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

What choice do they have? Putin and the Russian Military leaders have been VERY CLEAR about what they are going to do to those fighters. Look at what happened in BUCHA Ukraine when Putin was pushed back from Kyiv.

If your only choice is between being tortured to death and fighting to the death, which would you choose?

I see your point, but you've presented a false dichotomy (die fighting, or surrender and die anyway). Of course, surrender isn't without risk- it's one of the riskiest things a soldier at war can do. However, in this war, there have been documented surrenders of Ukrainian troops without summary executions, and prisoner exchanges. Bucha was very bad, but it was mostly civilians that were killed, not surrendered soldiers. That's not to say that Russian troops can't or won't take their frustrations out on surrendering troops, but such an outcome isn't a given.

That said, for many, "perception is reality", and if the defenders believe they'll be tortured and killed if they surrender, it makes sense that they've decided not to.

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[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Raellus

I see your point, but you've presented a false dichotomy (die fighting, or surrender and die anyway). Of course, surrender isn't without risk- it's one of the riskiest things a soldier at war can do. However, in this war, there have been documented surrenders of Ukrainian troops without summary executions, and prisoner exchanges. Bucha was very bad, but it was mostly civilians that were killed, not surrendered soldiers. That's not to say that Russian troops can't or won't take their frustrations out on surrendering troops, but such an outcome isn't a given.

That said, for many, "perception is reality", and if the defenders believe they'll be tortured and killed if they surrender, it makes sense that they've decided not to.

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Not quite a "false dichotomy." Are you not listening to Putin's speeches? Did you not see what has already happened to the AZOV Battalion fighters who were captured? Putin swore on national TV in December that he would try and convict everyone in the AZOV Batallion as a Nazi. The images are gone from GOOGLE now but did you see what the Russians did to those 8 members of the battalion in the first week of the war? Crucified right in Maripol then lit on fire and burned.

[swaghauler]

Here's a video from Operator Starsky. Take what you see here with a grain of salt. It is a Ukrainian war video.

https://youtu.be/c1gs2cQ9lhg

Swag

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Are you not listening to Putin's speeches?

I am not. I don't trust anything he says, so I tend to ignore him.

Originally Posted by swaghauler

Did you not see what has already happened to the AZOV Battalion fighters who were captured? The images are gone from GOOGLE now but did you see what the Russians did to those 8 members of the battalion in the first week of the war? Crucified right in Maripol then lit on fire and burned.

I did not and, from your description, I'm glad that I didn't. That's awful.

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[Targan]

It's exactly the sort of conflict that turns really, really ugly in terms of the behaviour of the troops on the ground. Exacerbated by the well-understood Russian doctrine of using brutality against the civilian populace to break the will of the opposing side to fight on. Except in many cases it makes the opposition fight even harder, and engage in brutal tactics as well.

[Fallenkezef]

Originally Posted by Targan

It's exactly the sort of conflict that turns really, really ugly in terms of the behaviour of the troops on the ground. Exacerbated by the well-understood Russian doctrine of using brutality against the civilian populace to break the will of the opposing side to fight on. Except in many cases it makes the opposition fight even harder, and engage in brutal tactics as well.

I never understand why people think this crap works. Germany pounded London and we never broke. The RAF flattened every German city and the German people did not break. The nazis tried this with Ukraine in WW2 (look up the bastards of the Dirlewanger brigade) and the Ukrainians did not break back then.

Russian tactics did not break the Afghans back in the 80's.

All it does is make every person a potential enemy combatant and none of your troops are safe, anywhere in theatre.

[Raellus]

I think it's more about driving civilians out of targeted settlements so that the artillery can level potential defensive positions, than efforts to break the will to fight of the Ukrainian populace. The demoralizing effect of random shelling and missile attacks is a "bonus", rather than the primary objective of said strikes. Do the Russians really care about civilian casualties? Clearly not, but I think they're trying to maintain the facade that they do.

The Russians have a long institutional memory. They learned how difficult MOUT is 75 years ago during the battles for Berlin, Danzig, Konigsberg, etc. Their attempts at a decapitating "Thunder Run" during the first battle of Grozny and, again, during the Battle of Kiev, were costly, abject failures, so they've reverted back to just shelling cities into rubble before trying to seize territory.

"Light", preliminary bombardment prompts evacuations of civilians. Then the Soviets can go hard. Or maybe they just don't give a crap about civilian casualties, I don't know.

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[Trooper]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

Aselsan is a Turkish manufacturer. They make an airburst round with tungsten pellets as the payload. NAMMO also manufactures ammo in 35x228mm, although I'm not sure where, given their multinational nature. And Rheinmetall makes some types of rounds in that caliber. I think Romarm in Romania also manufactures high explosive rounds (and training rounds), but not the more advanced rounds.

Nammo is marketing 35 mm ammo for Oerlikon. So far, they have only managed to sell training rounds to Turkey.

History goes something like this. In early 90s Finland bought seven Marksman SPAAGs. Finnish policy was during that time that Finland should have production capacity to all calibers we have in use.

Only weapons that used 35 mm Oerlikon rounds were sixteen Oerlikon GDF guns and those Marksman tanks. Anyway, Vihtavuori made one batch of 35 mm ammo and that didn’t go too well. Oerlikon rounds are not easy to manufacture. Rounds should have small dispersion and high velocity. After some embarrassing incidents armed forces stopped using Finnish ammo and relied in Swiss quality.

Probably Vihtavuori (part of Nammo group) still have some capacity to manufacture 35 mm rounds, but probably it would be better that some “international arms dealer” just happens to find Swiss ammo for Gepard.

[swaghauler]

These drone strikes are being done by the Ukrainian made 8-motor quadcopters that they assemble from kits. The "bombs" are plastic bodies (to reduce loaded weight) with fixed plastic fins (made from sheet plastic found in craft stores), with a metal nose cone and "percussion/striker" detonator. The bomb's payload is 1/2lb of explosive and 2lbs of fragmentation material (everything from gravel to small metal fragments). The smaller drones can carry one or two bombs but the larger one Ukraine has started to make is capable of carrying up to 6 bombs. The control range is a few kilometers and the controller is a STANDARD (ie commercially sold) controller.

https://youtu.be/XQ4HxpQQ3Sg

Swag

[kcdusk]

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot?

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot?

Was it a one shot kill? Or many?

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait?

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.



https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ank-in-ukraine

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot?

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot?

Was it a one shot kill? Or many?

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait?

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.



https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ank-in-ukraine

According to YouTube, it was killed by one of the OLDEST weapons on the modern battlefield! The Ukrainian military hit it with a Carl Gustaf Recoilless Rifle!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot?

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot?

Was it a one shot kill? Or many?

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait?

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.



https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ank-in-ukraine

Just to clarify, it was a surprise because it was the first known T-90M Proryv lost in Ukraine. Russia's lost at least 19 of the T-90A, which are an earlier variant (first ordered in 2005, while the Proryv was first delivered in 2020).

The best estimate of what happened that I've seen so far is that the Carl Gustaf shot hit one of the fuel tanks and started a fire in the rear of the tank, which spread until it set off the ammo carousel.

And here's where I note that Paul doesn't have the T-90M on his page, because of course I went to go check, and noticed the T-72B3 and T-72B3M are also not listed. (Also, the writeup on the T-90 implies the T-90A existed first and then the T-90S was a derived export version, when it's the other way around - the T-90S was sold to India in 2001, and then Russia bought the "export version" for themselves as T-90A in 2005).

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by Vespers War

And here's where I note that Paul doesn't have the T-90M on his page, because of course I went to go check, and noticed the T-72B3 and T-72B3M are also not listed. (Also, the writeup on the T-90 implies the T-90A existed first and then the T-90S was a derived export version, when it's the other way around - the T-90S was sold to India in 2001, and then Russia bought the "export version" for themselves as T-90A in 2005).

I've been busy updating EV pages; I haven't been paying attention to other vehicles; I guess I need to upgrade at least some of Russian Tanks...and US tanks, and British tanks, and US APCs, and British APCs, and International APCs, and Russian APCs, and Russian LAVs...I could go on, but I'll give myself a panic attack.

[kcdusk]

Paul: the way the "best way to travel overland" thread is going, your best bet is to prioritise a whole page on horse stats!

[pmulcahy11b]

Originally Posted by kcdusk

Paul: the way the "best way to travel overland" thread is going, your best bet is to prioritise a whole page on horse stats!

The way I do things is:
1) Updates, by category and alphabet, Right now, that's Wheeled EV
2) Stuff I want to do for fun
3) Corrections I receive in PM and email and forum
4) Requests

The last two may blend together, sometimes

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b

I've been busy updating EV pages; I haven't been paying attention to other vehicles; I guess I need to upgrade at least some of Russian Tanks...and US tanks, and British tanks, and US APCs, and British APCs, and International APCs, and Russian APCs, and Russian LAVs...I could go on, but I'll give myself a panic attack.

Yeah, it's going to be a project without end since there are always odd updates being done, even excluding the introduction of entirely new vehicles. At least everything I noted wouldn't be in use in a tradition T2K scenario - the T-90M was first publicly shown in 2017, while the T-72B3 dates to 2010 and the T-72B3M to 2016.

And on the theme of odd updates, the Polish T-72M1R that were sent to Ukraine have been fitted with mounts for Kontakt-1 ERA, with the armor blocks being provided by Czech Republic. The M1R has a thermal imaging camera for the gunner, improved radios, a new fire control system, and a battlefield management system. As a quick and dirty stat-up, I'd just use the T-72M1 with Fire Control increased to +3, Thermal Imaging, and a second PKT. The gun mount isn't mentioned as receiving any upgrades, so Stabilization remains at Fair. The Kontakt-1 ERA would add 80 to AV against HE only to the front and sides, and doesn't protect against top-attack munitions or mines.

[Raellus]

It's hard to believe that any Ukrainian helicopters got in or out of there during the siege. IMHO, those aircrews deserve Ukraine's highest decoration for bravery.

Inside Ukraine’s Daring Helicopter Missions Into Russian-Occupied Mariupol:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...upied-mariupol

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[Bestbrian]

The gear comes with a learning curve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/06/w...-training.html

[Raellus]

Originally Posted by Bestbrian

The gear comes with a learning curve.

Thanks for the link. I've long been wondering how the UAF has been keeping up with the profusion of donated weaponry (especially artillery and combat vehicles), and am concerned that a lot of this "new" gear will be rushed into the field before its crews know how to use it effectively. This concern has only grown with reports of Western AFVs and artillery arriving in Ukraine in increasing quantities. A week ago, it was reported that Norwegian M109s SPGs had arrived in Ukraine. A couple of days ago, the Russians posted video of a battery of said M109s being hit by rocket-deployed cluster munitions. That's a quick turnaround, with unfortunate results. It's one thing for the Ukrainians to employ systems with which they have familiarity and experience (like T-72 variants and Buka SAMs), but quite another when it's HIMARS and Leopard 2s (gracias, España!)

I posted this link over in the Out of Mothballs thread already, but it's worth sharing here as well.

https://twitter.com/UAWeapons?ref_sr...0408%2Fpage-10

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[ToughOmbres]

Earlier in the conflict the Russian Army seemed to have forgotten most of the lessons of World War II or even 1995 Grozny at least as far as Command and Control decisions.
This also seemed to apply to logistics-logistics stopped as many Red Army offensives as the Wehrmacht during World War II. Russian logistics seemed to be in really pitiful shape.
Fast forward to late June-the Russians seem to have rediscovered massive artillery pulverizing everything to perdition ala World War I or the Artillery divisions of World War II.
We'll see.

[kcdusk]

Russia version of the last submarine. Pun intended.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...attack-ukraine