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Old 05-13-2020, 08:03 AM
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Default 4th ed T2K

So, this just happened...

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Twilight: 2000, 4th Edition
A new edition of the classic roleplaying game Twilight: 2000 was announced today by Free League Publishing, makers of the ALIEN RPG, in partnership with Game Designers’ Workshop and Amargosa Press. The new edition goes back to the roots of the franchise with a boxed set for sandbox roleplaying in the devastation of World War III. It will come to Kickstarter in August, to be released in early 2021.

The new edition of the apocalyptic RPG Twilight: 2000 will be the fourth in the series, the first being released by Game Designers' Workshop in 1984. Just like the original version, the new edition is set in a year 2000 devastated by war – now in an alternate timeline where the Moscow Coup of 1991 succeeded and the Soviet Union never collapsed.

"The first edition of Twilight: 2000 was an iconic game for me back in the '80s, and we are humbled and honored to work with Marc Miller and Game Designers’ Workshop to bring a new edition to life. The original game was really ahead of its time. Our goal is to build on the amazing sandbox survival gameplay and develop it further, making it more accessible using the tools of modern game design," says lead game designer and Free League founder Tomas Härenstam.

"When I saw this proposal to revisit the Twilight universe, I signed on immediately. As I have seen the work proceed, I have not been disappointed, and I look forward to seeing this project become reality," says Marc Miller of Far Future Enterprises and co-founder of Game Designers' Workshop.

Also part of the project are Amargosa Press (who have recently announced the new Dark Conspiracy 4th Edition RPG), Polish RPG publisher Black Monk Games (who will act as a consultant on the Poland in 2000 AD game setting as well as publish a Polish edition of the game), and Far Future Enterprises (who publishes the fifth edition of the Traveller science-fiction roleplaying game).

The design team is led by Tomas Härenstam (ALIEN RPG, Forbidden Lands, Mutant: Year Zero), with setting and scenario writing by Chris Lites (Conan, Over the Edge), editing by Angus Abranson (Doctor Who, The One Ring), interior art by Niklas Brant (Forbidden Lands), cover art by Martin Grip (ALIEN RPG, Symbaroum), and maps by Tobias Tranell (Forbidden Lands). Several active and retired servicemen from the U.S. military are assigned to the project as consultants.

"Twilight: 2000 was a favorite of ours at school in the '80s, with many a lunch hour spent salvaging what we could as we traveled across the ruins of Europe trying to survive. I’m honored to be involved in a new edition, and being able to work with the Free League is a fantastic bonus!” says Angus Abranson of Amargosa Press.

Just like the original game, the new edition of Twilight: 2000 is set in a Poland devastated by war, but the game also offers an alternative Swedish setting, as well as tools for placing the game anywhere in the world.

In the game, players take roles of survivors in the aftermath of World War III – soldiers or civilians. Their goal, beyond surviving for another day, can be to find a way back home, to carve out their own fiefdom where they are, to find out more about the mysterious Operation Reset, and maybe, just maybe, make the world a little bit better again.

The core gameplay uses a "hexcrawling" system established in the post-apocalyptic Mutant: Year Zero and survival fantasy Forbidden Lands RPGs (both Silver ENnie winners for Best Rules, in 2015 and 2019), developing it further to fit the gritty world of Twilight: 2000. The core rules are built on the Year Zero Engine used in those games (as well as in the ALIEN RPG), but heavily adapted to fit Twilight: 2000 and its focus on gear and gritty realism.

More information about the new edition of Twilight: 2000 will be forthcoming soon.

For further information or interview requests, please contact pr@frialigan.se
So, it's a D6 system, which I believe many, if not the majority of people did NOT want....
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:03 AM
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Default Free League announce new Twilight 2000

https://frialigan.se/en/games/twilight-2000/
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:38 AM
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I've heard good things about some of their other titles- Tales from the Loop and Alien- so I am hopeful.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:40 AM
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:42 AM
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Yep, I've heard great things about the company and am so happy they're keeping the now retro-futuristic WW3 in 2000 setting.

COUNT ME IN.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:24 AM
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OH HELL!!!!

After all that work copying Paul's work and redoing almost all the small arms! Now we got all new stuff coming to play with.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:29 AM
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I really dig the art samples. The Shell gas station with the missing S is clever. Wish I'd thought of that.
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Old 05-13-2020, 10:47 AM
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The art feels appropriate - like a modern take on the original.

Game system aside, I'm happy that they're keeping it in 2000. That's a heck of a design choice to make - it allows them to not worry about creating a new timeline, but it risks alienating some younger players.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:07 AM
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I like the idea but I'm pretty sure I'm going to loathe the rules system.
From what little I do know of it, the Year Zero rules system has a watered down Archetype/Role/Class style of character generation so we're probably going to lose the lifepath style of PC generation and Year Zero does love the gimmick dice for deciding actions at the table, something I'm not particularly fond of.
I don't know about the Alien RPG, I have a friend who is a mad fan for Alien and bought the original RPG plus this new one. He said it's a beautiful book to look at but it's a hot mess when it comes to the rules.
So with all that in mind, I'm still very interested to see what Fria Ligan does with T2k but I'm holding off on any commitment to buying it until I see it. If I do, I'm pretty sure I will not be using their rules system.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:08 AM
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Well good to see that I can now officially acknowledge it - Marc gave me a heads up on it couple of days ago - cant wait to see it!
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:22 AM
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I'm pretty ambivalent toward the rules system at this point. I mean, it's not like the original rule system was known for being outstanding or anything.

I'm more concerned with it capturing the look and feel of the original setting, with added content.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:45 PM
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i will be getting a copy or what ever the kickstarter is going to offer. I want play. no one in my local area. but I sooo love to read this type of stuff.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:48 PM
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It's weird because all the attempted updates are trying to update the setting and keep the rules generally the same. So I'm thrilled that this one seems to want to maintain the setting but update the rules. I don't want as much crunch personally, or at least update and try to streamline the crunch so it isn't clunky.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:15 PM
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I backed their Bitter Reach kickstarter which has just started shipping, so my impression of that (plus whatever information they provide during product launch) will determine whether I decide to buy it or not.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellanraa View Post
It's weird because all the attempted updates are trying to update the setting and keep the rules generally the same. So I'm thrilled that this one seems to want to maintain the setting but update the rules. I don't want as much crunch personally, or at least update and try to streamline the crunch so it isn't clunky.
I agree. My only concern is the the "Cold War Never Ended" alternate history won't appeal to a new audience large enough to make the new version profitable. I hope that I am wrong.
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Old 05-13-2020, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sellanraa View Post
It's weird because all the attempted updates are trying to update the setting and keep the rules generally the same. So I'm thrilled that this one seems to want to maintain the setting but update the rules. I don't want as much crunch personally, or at least update and try to streamline the crunch so it isn't clunky.
I hear that. I remember the first time reading through the big yellow book, and seeing the demolitions rules. My teenage brain at the time thought "Square roots? Are you kidding me?".

While I wouldn't doubt that those rules give fairly true to life results, it just seems like there always has to have been an easier way.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:31 PM
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I agree. My only concern is the the "Cold War Never Ended" alternate history won't appeal to a new audience large enough to make the new version profitable. I hope that I am wrong.
Regardless of my feeling towards the rules they might use, I believe this is the real issue.
Military themed RPGs are a niche product already so obviously the audience will be smaller than that for fantasy RPGs and more importantly any new one has to fight against the well established foothold that fantasy RPGs have. That and I think T2k was released at the right time in history for it to resonant with the audience - ancient history (and ancient alternate histories as well) seem to do well enough but modern history doesn't seem to generate enough interest among the audience (unless it's horror).
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:37 PM
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I'm feeling ambivalent today about this. I'd certainly like to hear more about the system, I'm seeing several references to "hexcrawling", and I'd like to know what that means, in terms of this game.

"Cold War goes Hot" is pretty popular among the board-wargamers, so maybe that trend can feed a new T2k. I can say that a significant chunk of the players at my table at Origins each year are not grognards who played it in the 80s.

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I remember the first time reading through the big yellow book, and seeing the demolitions rules. My teenage brain at the time thought "Square roots? Are you kidding me?".
Funny, my teenage brain was already neck-deep in physics and pre-calculus classes when v1 came out, so seeing it in a game was water under the bridge. YMMV.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:21 PM
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I am hoping that they will make some of the MOS's stand out better. In the old version so many were just the same thing, then they lumped so many into support. So maybe not so much the MOS's but the skills. I am kind of in a weird place as I want more detail on skills and such but less number crunching for some others. For example, I do not think that tracked vehicles should not let you drive anything with tracks, I spent ten years as a tanker, was an expert tank driver, was one of the go to in my battalion to teach others tricks of driving, but I do not even know if I could start a Soviet tank, let alone drive one (if I could even fit into it, but that is a different issue).
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Old 05-14-2020, 12:42 AM
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I'm feeling ambivalent today about this. I'd certainly like to hear more about the system, I'm seeing several references to "hexcrawling", and I'd like to know what that means, in terms of this game.
Hexcrawling is old school RPG terms back when Chainmail and OD&D were new things in the world. Think of the old hex maps used for wargames and chits on those maps. That is what a hex crawler is in a nut shell. The maps would represent a region and each space would be a hex. See here for an example of Roman era Europa done in hex. Here is some random fantasy map done in hexcrawl format with some simple but easy to understand graphical icons. .

There are some advantages to a hexcrawl map.
  • You can assign numbers to your hexes and keep easy notes if a session has to end before combat is resolved.
  • If done right you can say each hex is X measurement wide making movement plotting easy verse grid
  • With 8 sides facing and weapon usage is easy to figure as well as line of sight
  • Hex grid paper is fairly cheap from most office/school supply centers to make your own maps of things like towns or buildings
  • It can be easy to scale down with only some minor hassles

However, at the same time there are disadvantages.
  • Trying to put a square building into a Hex is a PITA. You will have endless arguements at times with players about whether a corner is in a hex or not.
  • Facing issues and movement is always a pain to figure at times. Some rules make you spend movement points/time just to move the 120 degrees to change facing while in the same hex
  • movement left->right across a maps is hard to figure since the hexes are off set from each other.
  • Hexes are really old school. Going back to the earliest days of wargames from folks like SPI, Avalon Hill, or even GDW.
  • it is hard to fit things into hexes at times. See the map of Roman era Europe linked to earlier, see what England/Scotland looks like. Can for some suspend the moment for gaming.

Hope this helps to understand what hexcrawl is.
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Old 05-14-2020, 06:35 AM
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I agree. My only concern is the the "Cold War Never Ended" alternate history won't appeal to a new audience large enough to make the new version profitable. I hope that I am wrong.
I concur. While I'll wait to see what the actual kickstarter entails the likelihood is that I'll almost certainly support it in some way however I personally would have preferred something that took the real World timeline and advanced it forward to around 2030 / 2035.
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Old 05-14-2020, 09:16 AM
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Hope this helps to understand what hexcrawl is.
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I know what hexcrawls are, what I should have asked was: I hear this company's games are really good at hexcrawls. Why is that?
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Old 05-14-2020, 10:39 AM
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Hexcrawls sound more like a style of play (like dungeon-crawling) than a system of play.

On the other hand, certain games use hexes as units of measurement for range movement and whatnot during combat (like D&D 4e and BattleTech).

I'm still not clear on this company's emphasis on hexes.
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Old 05-14-2020, 11:28 AM
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I agree. My only concern is the the "Cold War Never Ended" alternate history won't appeal to a new audience large enough to make the new version profitable. I hope that I am wrong.
Advance the timeline. There's a three-way Cold War going on now.
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Old 05-14-2020, 11:41 AM
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About 2016-17, we played Mutant Year Zero the first time and, that evening, I thought: this'd make a great system for T2k.

About a year later, our group adapted the Year Zero engine to do just that. It was fun for a while, until it wasn't. The d6 gimmick dice—nuke symbol on 6s, biohazard sign on 1s) worked well to quickly discover exposure to radiation and/or biologicals (we still use this method in our 1e-homebrewed campaign).

I own most of Free League's games. And I can say they all look fantastic. The settings are mostly well-drawn and feel alive within their own world. On the other tentacle, there's Alien. I eagerly grabbed it when announced, being a Giger fan and loving the original film, but within a couple hours of playing it, well... as said somewhere above in this thread, the rules are a terrible hot mess some creature left on the sidewalk.

Free League does hexcrawls well (Forbidden Lands & Mutant) because of their random tables and intentionally quick-paced game. But there is a LOT of handwaving. And limited skills that sometimes have to be sussed through because they really don't cover much in the way of skills the way skills-based games do (most of their games have only 12 skills listed). There's a lot of attribute (only 4 attributes) checks in place of a particular skill (is that a Wits skill or an Empathy skill?). Many character/game situations that arise frequently are ignored by the rules, and especially with FL's initial printings, that forego actual proofreading at the expense of initial buyers. The inside cover of Alien has a typo in the name of Weyland-Yutani (the first of at least several dozen) and they character cards feature a Pilot who doesn't have Piloting skill. Fixable errors, for sure, but ones that should have been caught long before the ms. was sent to print. Their proprietary dice—gimmicky and uh, cool—were initially manufactured by Q-Workshop, but for Alien and after, mass produced sticky plastic chunks from Chinese labor. Which would be quite ironical given that the game is going to be published in Poland (Q-Workshop is a Polish company, for those who didn't know).

The other downside (from this perspective) to them as a company, is they tend to cater to the loudest fans (let's make Symbaroum with D&D ruleset, because ... MONEY!), who for T2k, are already shouting for crossovers with Alien or Tales from the Loop. Y'know, cuz aliens and mechanized armor robots are cool in "gritty, realistic" WWIII. (Please, Mr Miller, don't have signed a license deal that allows for crossovers.)

It will have great art. It will probably have great atmosphere.

It probably will not have detailed accurate military orders, despite their PR assurance that military folks have advised them on it. It will probably not have rules that are friendly to detail-oriented/realism-favoring players.

On the fence about it's value with fluff. Highly doubtful the crunch will offer satisfying bites.

Last edited by puška; 05-14-2020 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by pmulcahy11b View Post
Advance the timeline. There's a three-way Cold War going on now.
I see China and much of the west currently in a tussle, surely you don't mean Russia as the third? They're very much in decline and now little more than a regional power.


You've pretty much confirmed my fears there puška. I am currently talking with them though regarding the ANZAC book and HOPE they can give some reassurances that these fears are unfounded.
Olefin, Raellus, they'd like a chat with you two as well and you should receive an email from them I've forwarded shortly. If you're interested, I can loop you in as well Paul? Pretty sure the mechanics side of your site is incompatible, but the descriptions are pure gold for even non-gamers!
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:26 PM
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Olefin, Raellus, they'd like a chat with you two as well and you should receive an email from them I've forwarded shortly.
Thanks, Leg! I reached out to them about the possibility of converting my two e-published books the day of the big reveal and haven't heard a thing back. I was starting to lose hope. I appreciate the assist.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:43 PM
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Thanks puška, for the information about the way the game rules play out. Two of my gaming friends (I already mentioned the one who's the Alien fan) have had some experience with the Year Zero rules and they were not particularly impressed by them and from your description here I think now I understand why.
And now I'm inclined to agree with them, even without seeing the rules myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puška View Post
About 2016-17, we played Mutant Year Zero the first time and, that evening, I thought: this'd make a great system for T2k.

About a year later, our group adapted the Year Zero engine to do just that. It was fun for a while, until it wasn't. The d6 gimmick dice—nuke symbol on 6s, biohazard sign on 1s) worked well to quickly discover exposure to radiation and/or biologicals (we still use this method in our 1e-homebrewed campaign).

I own most of Free League's games. And I can say they all look fantastic. The settings are mostly well-drawn and feel alive within their own world. On the other tentacle, there's Alien. I eagerly grabbed it when announced, being a Giger fan and loving the original film, but within a couple hours of playing it, well... as said somewhere above in this thread, the rules are a terrible hot mess some creature left on the sidewalk.

Free League does hexcrawls well (Forbidden Lands & Mutant) because of their random tables and intentionally quick-paced game. But there is a LOT of handwaving. And limited skills that sometimes have to be sussed through because they really don't cover much in the way of skills the way skills-based games do (most of their games have only 12 skills listed). There's a lot of attribute (only 4 attributes) checks in place of a particular skill (is that a Wits skill or an Empathy skill?). Many character/game situations that arise frequently are ignored by the rules, and especially with FL's initial printings, that forego actual proofreading at the expense of initial buyers. The inside cover of Alien has a typo in the name of Weyland-Yutani (the first of at least several dozen) and they character cards feature a Pilot who doesn't have Piloting skill. Fixable errors, for sure, but ones that should have been caught long before the ms. was sent to print. Their proprietary dice—gimmicky and uh, cool—were initially manufactured by Q-Workshop, but for Alien and after, mass produced sticky plastic chunks from Chinese labor. Which would be quite ironical given that the game is going to be published in Poland (Q-Workshop is a Polish company, for those who didn't know).

The other downside (from this perspective) to them as a company, is they tend to cater to the loudest fans (let's make Symbaroum with D&D ruleset, because ... MONEY!), who for T2k, are already shouting for crossovers with Alien or Tales from the Loop. Y'know, cuz aliens and mechanized armor robots are cool in "gritty, realistic" WWIII. (Please, Mr Miller, don't have signed a license deal that allows for crossovers.)

It will have great art. It will probably have great atmosphere.

It probably will not have detailed accurate military orders, despite their PR assurance that military folks have advised them on it. It will probably not have rules that are friendly to detail-oriented/realism-favoring players.

On the fence about it's value with fluff. Highly doubtful the crunch will offer satisfying bites.
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Old 05-14-2020, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Adm.Lee View Post
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I know what hexcrawls are, what I should have asked was: I hear this company's games are really good at hexcrawls. Why is that?
My bad in misunderstanding the question then.
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Old 05-14-2020, 10:41 PM
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Longtime lurker, just registered to comment on this.

As to the system, I was willing to keep an open mind, but as for tone and content I'm unmoved.

Unlike the others I was rather disappointed by the art samples. Admittedly, I tend to put a lot of emphasis on art, but it seems far more generic post-apocalypse than military...fine for a reprint of FGU's Aftermath, but the military vibe is kinda lost to me. Secondly, as much as I understand the pandering, the modern "angry grrl" stuff seems equally out of place.

I say all of this as a 1st Edition Twilight 2000 player since 1986, so one can chalk it up to my being a politically incorrect geezer (basically true), but I know I'm not alone...nor is my money.
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