Automatic fire rule in v2.2?

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Just woundering where this comes from? In my experance I have seen people using M16A2 (three round burst) and if lucky hit with one round, and these are trained combat vets. The only exception that I have seen in macheine guns as they are built for that and also normlay fired from a mount of some type.

This rate of fire is a weapon's mechanical rate of fire over 1/2 to 6/10ths of a second. It provides a bit more variety than the game's standard ROFs. Any trained machinegunner (I did my training on the M60E2 in the 90's) or any competitive shooter will tell you that 1/2 second bursts are the most easily controlled form of automatic fire. Ironically, GDW worked on the same premise. The ROF of 5 for AKs is exactly a 1/2 second burst (at 600 rpm, an AK will fire 10 rounds per second). They did fudge rates of fire with other weapons though.

Rate of fire has nothing to do with accuracy. Accuracy is measured by a character's skill. The people you know were not qualified by the US Army. To qualify as an Expert Rifleman in the Infantry during my term of service, you had to hit all the pop ups with all the rounds in a triburst (even the 300 meter target). To qualify Expert with the M60E2, I had to hit a 600 meter target with 3 rounds of a 6 round burst (in 8 seconds or less).

This does bring up an interesting issue with most modern shooting games. The rates of fire are different than they would be in real life. In IDPA Matches (my current shooting sport), a Master level shooter will have 1/10th of a second "Split Times" (time between shots) equaling a ROF of 10 rounds a second. An Expert level shooter will have 1/4 second "Split Times" equaling 4 shots per second. Experienced shooters will have 1/2 second "Split Times" equaling 2 shots per second. and a Novice shooter will barely break a 1 second "Split Time." Your rate of fire should be tied to a combination of your shooting skill and reflexes. I guess you could do this by taking your RAW (non Asset) skill and dividing it by 2 (rounding down). You then take your AGL and divide it by 2 (rounding down). The lower of these two numbers is the number of shots/bursts you can fire instead of the default 5 (operating on the 1/2 a second ROF theory).

If GDW were using 1/2 a second as a base; Other rates could be changed to reflect real world fire rates.

Bolt Actions: "Long Throw" bolt actions like the 98K, and the M700 would need 2 seconds to throw the bolt. "Short Throw" bolt guns like the Lee-Enfield, the Mosin, and the Arisaka (look for straight or only slightly down-turned bolt handles for a short throw bolt) could be manipulated in 1 & 3/4 to 1 & 1/2 seconds per bolt throw. This could be reduced by high AGL or Skill levels.

Lever and Pump Actions: These are about equally fast. Just watch some videos on Youtube of the Single Action Society shoots to see how fast a lever gun can be. I can tell you from my 3 Gun shoots that an Novice "Pumpgunner" can average 1/2 a second "splits" and an Expert gunner can easily hit the quarter second mark between shots. I have seen ONE man who can average 1/10th of a second "splits" (timed electronicly). So the Twilight rates aren't all that accurate. These weapon's fire rates should be skill/AGL dependent too.

[CDAT]

Originally Posted by swaghauler

...
Rate of fire has nothing to do with accuracy. Accuracy is measured by a character's skill. The people you know were not qualified by the US Army. To qualify as an Expert Rifleman in the Infantry during my term of service, you had to hit all the pop ups with all the rounds in a triburst (even the 300 meter target). To qualify Expert with the M60E2, I had to hit a 600 meter target with 3 rounds of a 6 round burst (in 8 seconds or less).
...

Yes and no rate of fire does have some to do with overall accuracy, the more recoil the less accurate you are, skill does compensate for this some, but not all. Weight, compensators, and just how the weapon is build are some other factors that can be factors in overall accuracy.

I am not sure when your team of service was, but during mine (1993 - 2013) automatic/Three round bust was never part of any rifle/carbine qualification course, SMG/Machineguns yes but the M16/M4/Mk18/GAU-5 or whatever you want to call it. Now on the Machinegun even by your post an expert only has a 50% hit rate on full auto but rate of fire has nothing to do with that? If they were shooting semi-auto would a 50% hit rate still be an expert?

[Adm.Lee]

I think you guys are leaning towards the idea that lower-skill (and/or lower-AGL) shooters might fire off more bullets per "shot"? That's an interesting idea. Given that the players I've run into don't like the math already involved, I'd have a hard time getting that into the "playable" range

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by Adm.Lee

I think you guys are leaning towards the idea that lower-skill (and/or lower-AGL) shooters might fire off more bullets per "shot"? That's an interesting idea. Given that the players I've run into don't like the math already involved, I'd have a hard time getting that into the "playable" range

Actually I was trying to explain the opposite. A novice shooter can barely get off 1 round per second. An expert shooter could fire up to 4 rounds per second. A master level shooter (in IDPA matches anyway) can fire up to 10 rounds in that same single second. If your wanted to portray this in game, then there are two factors that would affect rate of fire (in semi). The first is "hand-eye" coordination, and the second is the shooter's skill (representing the speed of aiming and recoil recovery). If you are using a 1 second phase system (6 or 7 Initiative points), then the character's ROF with SA firearms should be either his/her RAW (non Asset) Small Arms skill or his/her AGL; Whichever is LESS. This should be the maximum number of shots he or she could fire in a 1 second phase.
I split the ROFs into 1/2 skill or 1/2 AGL above because GDW was using 1/2 a second for determining an automatic weapon's ROF. If they had been using a 1 second scale for ROF, the average numbers would be 10 (600 rpm) and 20 (1200 rpm). My theory (like GDW's I'm guessing) is that if the average phase is 1 second; the first 1/2 second would be for initial aiming and the actual shooting would occur in the second half of the 1 second in question. Take note however, just because a Master pistol shooter can fire 10 shots a second (1/10th second split times), doesn't mean he would. It also doesn't mean he would hit what he's shooting at. In certain situations however; The higher rate of fire an expert pistol shooter can manage might change the balance of power in a shootout.

[swaghauler]

I played around with this version of auto fire in version 1.1, and found it to be faster and more accurate. I make auto fire one level more difficult than single fire and do all the target modifications just like with single fire. I then divide the Hit Chance Percentage by ten (dropping all tenths) and just roll a number of D10's equal to the ROF. It's fast and accurate just like the old version 2 was.

[swaghauler]

Originally Posted by CDAT

Yes and no rate of fire does have some to do with overall accuracy, the more recoil the less accurate you are, skill does compensate for this some, but not all. Weight, compensators, and just how the weapon is build are some other factors that can be factors in overall accuracy.

I am not sure when your team of service was, but during mine (1993 - 2013) automatic/Three round bust was never part of any rifle/carbine qualification course, SMG/Machineguns yes but the M16/M4/Mk18/GAU-5 or whatever you want to call it. Now on the Machinegun even by your post an expert only has a 50% hit rate on full auto but rate of fire has nothing to do with that? If they were shooting semi-auto would a 50% hit rate still be an expert?

I was in from 1988 to 1996. Your issues with my post are my fault for not being clearer. I'm not talking about Basic Rifle Marksmanship Training/Qualification (the 40 round single fire pop up course or the optional 25 meter fixed target course) that all soldiers must shoot. I was talking about the advanced Infantry Qualification that was part of the SQT (Skills Qualification Testing) tests that were MOS specific. I think they were being phased out when you joined, but you might have taken one. Today I'm told it's a digital qualification, being fired on something called the Weaponeer (some form of laser emitting simulator) and being as much a shoot/no shoot exercise as a shooting qualification. The original Advanced Qualification was shot on a moving target range. A hit that knocks the target down is good (# of rounds do not matter). However, not all posts have a "Mover Range." When a "Mover Range" is not present, the "Pop up Range" is used. All targets must be hit BUT ALL rounds in the burst MUST be counted as well (because the targets are not moving). There is even a clause for using the 25 Meter "Zero Range" for Advanced Infantry Qualification. All rounds must be on target AND 2 rounds must be in the circle printed on the center of the silhouettes for advanced qualifications (on a side note, this was added after the A2 was introduced). This is the same for the Machinegun course I took. The 20 targets had to be knocked down AND you had to have 1/2 of a 6 round burst on the target. You could really screw yourself if you didn't have good trigger control. You got two 65 round belts to shoot it with. To heavy on the trigger, and you wouldn't have enough ammo for every target. For the record; I missed the 600 meter target. I know there are a couple of Vietnam vets in this forum so I'm going to ask this while were on the subject of training. When you went to Basic, did they still have the "Tactical Assault Course" where you walked in cover and shot pop ups as you went along?