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  #61  
Old 05-18-2018, 07:23 PM
Matt Wiser Matt Wiser is offline
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Yorktown was CG-48...GDW didn't correct the mistake in RDF Sourcebook. CG-42-46 were not used, though CGN-42 was an unbuilt Virginia class CGN with AEGIS, and canceled without being named or laid down.

There is a Challenge Magazine article which covers the New Jersey Coast, and it mentions two Forrest Sherman class DDs operating out of Cape May USCG base.
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  #62  
Old 05-19-2018, 09:55 PM
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Part of the treasure haul I'm slowly liberating from a comic/game store 'round these parts (I only have so much allowance per week ) includes a stack of Challenge magazines, which I may already have in .pdf format, I'll have to check. But if, unlike in the case of AD&D where Dragon (and Dungeon) magazines were decidedly not rules canon (until or unless they were made part of the rules by publication in an official rulebook vis Unearthed Arcana), Challenge is canon, then there might be a bolstering of US Naval strength noted in the magazine, with the 2 Forrest Sherman DDs in use being an example.
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  #63  
Old 05-21-2018, 06:50 AM
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FYI per Marc Miller some of Challenge is canon - the articles written by GDW staff definitely were canon - but he said some of the material submitted by non-GDW wasnt unless a canon author later referred to it or used it
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  #64  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:00 AM
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Well there's some good article-fodder right there: a definitive index of what T2k articles in Challenge are, in fact, canon.
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  #65  
Old 05-21-2018, 11:20 AM
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Well there's some good article-fodder right there: a definitive index of what T2k articles in Challenge are, in fact, canon.
agreed

although some are obvious - i.e. some of what went in Challenge eventually went into the V2 and V2.2 - i.e. most of the new vehicles for instance
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  #66  
Old 05-21-2018, 01:54 PM
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That was my position, then they countered with "We will move it around with tugs like the Wisla Krolowa, steam driven".

I have my hands full with these guys, all a bit too smart for their britches but at least they keep me on my toes.
Never underestimate PC's! Make them work to come up with the materials and skilled labor for the tugs! Make the amount needed unavailable, but reward them with a couple of tugs, barges.
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  #67  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:35 PM
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Bringing back an old thread from the dead about the Oklahoma City and the Cabot - I think the question on those two ships is really what was more important to the USN if they did try to bring either back - both would need parts so it may be a question of does the navy want a light cruiser or a helicopter carrier?

Between the two ships and the Little Rock which is anchored at Buffalo there would be enough parts to possibly get one or both of them back up and running.

Of the two Cabot is in the better condition as she was in commission as recent as 1989 whereas Oklahoma City has been in reserve since 1979.

Cabot cant operate modern jet planes that take off and land conventionally but she could operate helicopters or jump jets.

Oklahoma City still has her old guns so in an era where missiles are in short supply she still has formidable fire power so she can reach out and touch someone who only has 5 inch guns.

Both of their hulls and engines were in good shape

Thus either of them being brought back to the Navy is real possibility - the question is more which of the two would give the best bang for the Navy

I would think the biggest point that supports Cabot is her ability to be an aircraft transport - and given the losses the USN took in carriers she could be a way to get helos back home from Europe if she was still around by the end of the war
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Last edited by Olefin; 05-25-2021 at 02:52 PM. Reason: edited entry on Cabot
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  #68  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:59 PM
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I would think the biggest point that supports Cabot is her ability to be an aircraft transport - and given the losses the USN took in carriers she could be a way to get helos back home from Europe if she was still around by the end of the war
Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs. Another way of the looking at it, though, is that if the Cold War had continued, Spain would have invested in a newer carrier to replace the aging Cabot/Dedalo, making the Cabot surplus to requirements and increasing the likelihood that it would be sold back to the USA.

Anyway, if she did end up back in US service, I can see the Cabot or her afore-mentioned sister ships as being useful earlier in the war as a convoy escort, flying ASW helicopters (probably Sea Kings and/or Sea Sprites taken out of mothballs).

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  #69  
Old 05-25-2021, 03:03 PM
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Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs. Another way of the looking at it, though, is that if the Cold War had continued, Spain would have invested in a newer carrier to replace the aging Cabot/Dedalo, making the Cabot surplus to requirements and increasing the likelihood that it would be sold back to the USA.

Anyway, if she did end up back in US service, I can see the Cabot or her afore-mentioned sister ships as being useful earlier in the war as a convoy escort, flying ASW helicopters (probably Sea Kings and/or Sea Sprites taken out of mothballs).

-
I think thats the real question - in our timeline the Spanish built a replacement and retired the Dedalo which is how she ended up back in the US. But a V1 timeline where the Cold War never ended may have had her stay in reserve in Spain - in which case then it would be Oklahoma City that comes back from mothballs most likely.

The rest of the CVL's were long gone by either timeline - but given the losses to carriers the US took it would be very tempting to get her back into service at the very least to be an ASW or assault carrier - or even an aircraft transport.
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  #70  
Old 05-25-2021, 03:03 PM
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The Cabot could have also have been used as an aircraft ferry ala USNS Card during the Vietnam war.
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  #71  
Old 05-25-2021, 03:11 PM
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The Cabot could have also have been used as an aircraft ferry ala USNS Card during the Vietnam war.
Thats what I was thinking too - i.e. say you get her back in shape by 1996/early 1997 - you need to move helos to somewhere like Panama - the air transport fleet is going to be pretty busy by then. So what is a great way to get say a dozen Huey's down there or a half dozen UH-60's? Answer load them on Cabot and fly them off her deck.

And her engines were old WWII engines and the fuel she burns is a lot more available than using a crap load of jet fuel to fly them down a couple at a time. Let alone the wear and tear on the air frames of the transports.
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  #72  
Old 05-25-2021, 03:42 PM
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As far as the CLG-9 is concerned I don't see it being viable to reactivate. No other ships use 6" guns. So you're either going to have to start an assembly line for just 6' ammo for a single ship or replace that turret with other armaments. Lets not forget about the thing that makes it a CLG the Talos missile launcher. The last time a Talos missile was fired was by the OKC herself 18 years before. So that system needs to be replaced. Let alone that you need to replace some of the bofors with phalanx to give it some kind of close in defense.
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  #73  
Old 05-25-2021, 04:23 PM
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As far as the CLG-9 is concerned I don't see it being viable to reactivate. No other ships use 6" guns. So you're either going to have to start an assembly line for just 6' ammo for a single ship or replace that turret with other armaments. Lets not forget about the thing that makes it a CLG the Talos missile launcher. The last time a Talos missile was fired was by the OKC herself 18 years before. So that system needs to be replaced. Let alone that you need to replace some of the bofors with phalanx to give it some kind of close in defense.
And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War
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Last edited by Olefin; 05-25-2021 at 04:30 PM.
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  #74  
Old 05-25-2021, 04:47 PM
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:02 PM
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And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War
When I was in EOD school, they brought out all sorts of ammo that was still in storage that we no longer had weapons to use, for us to train with. So I can not say 6" for sure, but I would not be surprised. We got a 8" round to practice cutting into, and according to Wikipedia it was last in service in 1975.
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  #76  
Old 05-26-2021, 03:43 AM
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When I was in EOD school, they brought out all sorts of ammo that was still in storage that we no longer had weapons to use, for us to train with. So I can not say 6" for sure, but I would not be surprised. We got a 8" round to practice cutting into, and according to Wikipedia it was last in service in 1975.
I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?
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  #77  
Old 05-26-2021, 01:14 PM
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I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?
Plans had been drawn up to replace the Talos missiles with a pair of 8-cell Sea Sparrow launchers (and add a pair of Phalanx CIWS in place of the Bofors). Probably not plausible post-Thanksgiving, but as an early war refit it's at least somewhat possible.
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Old 05-26-2021, 04:22 PM
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I'll defer to your superior knowledge on that subject. Sounds at least plausible that 6" is still around then. Still what to do about the Talos mk7 missile launcher though? There would be no stores of those since all the remaining Talos were converted to MQM-8G Vandal.


Another thing to think about did CGN-9 Long Beach go through with its scheduled AEGIS upgrade. Did other CGNs get the upgrade as well?
I did a thread called the Navy in Version 2.2 where I discussed how the "real-world" drawdown could be used to justify why Russia was able to stand against the US. There are links to SEVERAL websites there that talk about proposed upgrades as well as my own "take" on updating ships based on my conversations with my friends who served during the '90s.

Just search for: swaghauler's "The Navy in V2.2" in the threads search.
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Old 05-27-2021, 01:23 PM
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Plans had been drawn up to replace the Talos missiles with a pair of 8-cell Sea Sparrow launchers (and add a pair of Phalanx CIWS in place of the Bofors). Probably not plausible post-Thanksgiving, but as an early war refit it's at least somewhat possible.
I can buy the Sea Sparrow replacement, VW. Youre right it comes down to timing on whether it happens or not.


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I did a thread called the Navy in Version 2.2 where I discussed how the "real-world" drawdown could be used to justify why Russia was able to stand against the US. There are links to SEVERAL websites there that talk about proposed upgrades as well as my own "take" on updating ships based on my conversations with my friends who served during the '90s.

Just search for: swaghauler's "The Navy in V2.2" in the threads search.
Thanks I'm going to check it out.



I see one last issue no one has addressed. The next USS Oklahoma City SSN-723 is already in service. What do we call CLG-9 then?

Last edited by shrike6; 05-27-2021 at 01:25 PM. Reason: added word " out" to response
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  #80  
Old 06-03-2021, 06:26 PM
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Would the Cabot have been sold back to the USA by Spain in 1989 if the Cold War hadn't ended (in the v1 timeline)? If the Cold War had continued, I can see NATO pressuring Spain to keep her in service, perhaps even subsidizing her operating costs.
By 1989 the Cabot has been in service for 47 years, and is the only ship of her class left in service in the world and considering that in 1988 the Príncipe de Asturias entered service with the Spanish Navy which is a new carrier. Why not return her to the US?

To quote MARAD directly "the National Defense Reserve Fleet consists of "mothballed" ships, mostly merchant vessels, that can be activated within 20 to 120 days to provide shipping for the United States of America during national emergencies, either military or non-military, such as commercial shipping crises."

The US Navy counterpart "A Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility (NISMF) is a facility owned by the United States Navy as a holding facility for decommissioned naval vessels, pending determination of their final fate. All ships in these facilities are inactive, but some are still on the Naval Vessel Register (NVR), while others have been struck from that Register.

The ships that have been stricken from the NVR are disposed of by one of several means, including foreign military sale transfer, ship donation as a museum or memorial, domestic dismantling and recycling, artificial reefing, or use as a target vessel. Others are retention assets for possible future reactivation, which have been laid up for long-term preservation and are maintained with minimal maintenance (humidity control, corrosion control, flood/fire watch) should they need to be recalled to active duty."

according to the Navy’s 30-Year Shipbuilding Plan to Congress for Fiscal Year 2016, The Navy has been reducing the number of inactive ships, which numbered as many as 195 in 1997, but was down to 49 by the end of 2014.
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Old 06-03-2021, 09:46 PM
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By 1989 the Cabot has been in service for 47 years, and is the only ship of her class left in service in the world and considering that in 1988 the Príncipe de Asturias entered service with the Spanish Navy which is a new carrier. Why not return her to the US?
That's certainly possible- likely, even. I was just thinking that maybe the US Navy Department would rather Spain continue to foot the bill for operating a aging, obsolescent carrier instead of getting stuck with her on its own balance sheet.

BTW, I'm sorry I didn't mention it earlier, but thanks for posting that pic of an improvised helicopter carrier based on a civilian merchant vessel. A few years ago, someone shared an article here that they wrote about converting container ships into convoy escort ASW carriers. I remember that I thought it was really well-done, but I can't remember who wrote it. Chico, maybe?

Anyone remember that?

EDIT: Here are some more threads relevant to this topic:

Recommissioned US Navy Ships
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....container+ship

Aircraft Carrier Question
https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread....container+ship

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Old 06-03-2021, 10:28 PM
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Another Idea
Ah yes, The HMS Atlantic Conveyor and HMS Atlantic Causeway of the Falkland Islands campaign!
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:53 AM
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Since the mothballed vessels of US naval ships came up, here is a list of "Historical Fleet Lists Since July 1990" of the United States Maritime Administration (MARAD). Please note, these are not warships, but merchant vessels:

https://www.maritime.dot.gov/data-re...orts-july-1990
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:38 PM
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Ah yes, The HMS Atlantic Conveyor and HMS Atlantic Causeway of the Falkland Islands campaign!
No, it actually the Athena Research Vessel from Kong: Skull Island

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Old 06-04-2021, 02:40 PM
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Since the mothballed vessels of US naval ships came up, here is a list of "Historical Fleet Lists Since July 1990" of the United States Maritime Administration (MARAD). Please note, these are not warships, but merchant's vessels:

https://www.maritime.dot.gov/data-re...orts-july-1990
Has stated above "MARAD directly "the National Defense Reserve Fleet consists of "mothballed" ships, mostly merchant vessels, that can be activated within 20 to 120 days to provide shipping for the United States of America during national emergencies, either military or non-military, such as commercial shipping crises."

While US Navy counterpart "A Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility (NISMF) is a facility owned by the United States Navy as a holding facility for decommissioned naval vessels, pending determination of their final fate.
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Old 06-04-2021, 02:52 PM
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That's certainly possible- likely, even. I was just thinking that maybe the US Navy Department would rather Spain continue to foot the bill for operating an ageing, obsolescent carrier instead of getting stuck with her on its own balance sheet.
to quote NavSource.org

Stricken from the Spanish Navy List, 5 Aug 1989, at New Orleans, and donated to a private organization for preservation as a museum ship. Plans to memorialize her, however, met with no success in subsequent years; she was sold for scrapping in 1997 and towed to Port Isabel, TX on 18 Oct, then to Brownsville on 9 Aug 1998.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/28.htm

Haze Gray & Underway

"Following many years of service as an ASW and VSTOL carrier, Dedalo returned to the US and was decommissioned at New Orleans 5 August 1989. Her ownership was transferred to the Cabot/Dedalo Association, and she was to be preserved as a museum. Sadly the Association wasted the funds it had raised for the preservation project, and the fate of this historic ship was soon in doubt. Despite being in excellent condition, and retaining many WWII-era features such as her original 40 mm AA guns, the last surviving light carrier of WWII sat at a pier in New Orleans for many years as the Association made no real attempt to preserve the ship.

In 1995, citing financial pressures, the Association attempted to sell the ship to foreign shipbreakers, but the sale was thwarted by preservation and environmental concerns. Despite preservation efforts by outside parties, the Association seemed interested only in scrapping the ship, and she was towed to Port Isabel, TX on 18 October 1997 for that purpose. Cabot was moved into Global Marine's shipbreaking berth at Brownsville, TX, on 9 August 1998. At some point, the ship had been transferred into Global Marine's possession, although legal title to the ship remained a contested issue.

Outside groups continued their efforts to block the sale or scrapping of the ship, and their legal efforts had temporary success. On 26 April 1999 Cabot was "arrested" by the US Marshals Service, and a court-ordered auction was scheduled. It was hoped that this auction would give preservation groups a final, honest chance to obtain clear title to the ship, with the proceeds of the auction going to pay off the numerous liens against the ship. The auction took place on 9 September 1999, and the ship was sold to Sabe Marine Salvage for $185,000. Sabe Marine Salvage apparently was another of the "paper" companies that had claimed ownership of the ship in recent years; all the companies were apparently owned by a common owner or owners. Although there were several additional efforts to save the ship, and the scrapping was postponed for many months, stripping work started during October 2000."

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/cabot/#neworl
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  #87  
Old 06-04-2021, 02:53 PM
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And got me - unless someone else on the forum knows - if there is still any 6 inch ammo in stock that the USN has that is available

They would have had whatever was on her when they decommissioned her in 1979- but would the USN have held onto any remaining stores? The only other countries that would have had ammunition would have been the few countries still operating the old Brooklyn class CL's - but got me what Argentina, Brazil and Chile still have in stock for 6 inch ammo since even their ships were out of commission by the time of the Twilight War
The Navy had some 16-inch ammo to stock the Missouri when it went to Desert Storm, despite the ship having been mothballed quite a while earlier -- but that's all there was.
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:05 PM
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Default Other Aircraft Carriers

Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA
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Old 06-04-2021, 03:27 PM
shrike6 shrike6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcaf_777 View Post
Essex Class

USS Yorktown (CV-10) - Museum Ship Mount Pleasant, SC
USS Intrepid (CV-11) - Museum Ship New York City, NY
USS Hornet (CV-12) - Museum Ship, Alameda Ca
USS Lexington (CV-16) - Museum Ship, Corpus Christi Tx
USS Bennington (CV-20) - Hulk only Port Angeles, Wa
USS Oriskany (CV-34) - Hulk only Mare Island Naval Shipyard, Vallejo Ca

Forrestal Class

USS Forrestal (CV-59) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Saratoga (CV-60) - In Storage at Naval Station Newport, Newport, RI
USS Ranger (CV-61) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA

Independence Class

USS Cabot (CVL-28) - Decommissioned for preservation at New Orleans

Midway Class

USS Midway (CV-41) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Bremerton WA
USS Coral Sea (CV-43) - In Storage at Naval Inactive Ship Maintenance Facility, Philadelphia PA
Interesting although you can make the case that all the Forrestals were active still. Ranger was scheduled for a SLEP in the early 90s which got cancelled. Forrestal was scheduled to be a dedicated training before the 90s defense cuts.
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