Out of Mothballs: Antiquated Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[3catcircus]

Originally Posted by Olefin

Oh the rifles and other small arms will be in great profusion - the armor/artillery/armored cars etc. are more to show, as per Raellus question, what kind of obsolescent vehicles will be seen in the T2K timeline.

I.e. what might get pulled out of reserve, etc.. and find itself fighting on the battlefields as modern armor gets short

I recommend an excellent book you might like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te...aeli_War:_1999 - very relevant to the topic - shows the US having to use old Lee, Sherman and Stuart tanks when the modern armor they had broke down

And I disagree with you on maintaining hardware - many of the older tanks are still in operation precisely because they are so easy to maintain. That guy in my town who owned the Sherman kept it going with a backyard garage and tools he bought from Sears and spare parts that in some cases he improvised from old service manuals he had.

Compared to the marvels of modern tech we operate now they may still be going long after the Twilight War ends due to their simplicity and still be fighting on battlefields when the last M1A1 has finally broken down for the last time.

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

[mpipes]

Forgot to mention that the Soviets stored THOUSANDS of captured German weapons at least through the 1990s. A friend was shown one salt mine in the Ukraine in the mid 90s storing WWII captured weapons. He personally saw and inspected crates of Lugers, P38s, G43s, K98s, MP-40s, and MG34s and 42s. All of them were in extremely good condition and fully functional. The Russians also had all the Thompson SMGs received with their lend lease Sherman tanks in storage, and many of those parts kits after the receivers were demilled were imported in the 90s and early 00s.

[Brit]

Articles about the Vietnam War but may interest:
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/...e-vietnam-war/
https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ins...s-vietnam.html

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by 3catcircus

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

In a number of the militaries of less wealthy countries, a soldier's time is cheaper than new vehicles and there aren't sufficient threats to justify spending large sums of money on the latest shiny toys. There are M8 Greyhounds still serving in multiple Latin American forces, while the last M4 Sherman tanks were retired in 2018 and Paraguay might still have some M3 Stuarts in service (Uruguay retired theirs in 1999). As far as I know, M3 half-tracks are still in service in Mexico. About 15 years newer but still "obsolete," there are hundreds of M60 tanks still in service, to the point that Raytheon and Leonardo have both introduced SLEP packages within the last 5 years, while Taiwan implemented an Elbit SLEP in 2019. There's plenty of old stuff either still trucking along in active service with second (or third, or fourth) users or in reserve to be recalled if there's a big enough war to need fast expansion of a military.

[unipus]

A point I haven't seen brought up in this thread (although maybe I missed it) is that you'd be far, far more likely to see many of these obsolescent vehicles than cutting-edge ones, just as a matter of logistics. Where were all the T-80Us and M1A1s? On the front line. That means that most of them got blow'd up in the first weeks of the war. The repair yards get blow'd up too, the spares get used up or blow'd up. Pretty soon there's not many functioning cool guy tanks around.

All of the above, in super fast motion, for aircraft.

Meanwhile, months or even years later, huge numbers of T-55s and M60s and M48s and T-34s are showing up to keep the show going. I doubt there are a whole lot of replacement T-80s coming, especially once the nukes drop.

Someone said a tank that's out of main gun rounds isn't better than a sandbag emplacement. Functionally true, maybe. In terms of morale on your average infantryman, it's pretty hard to beat the effect of knowing a TANK is guarding the approach to a town. (and I've personally seen this effect even in-game. It's great. One immobile T-55 is plenty enough to send the players scattering to rethink their whole plan -- as well it should!)

[Vespers War]

And modernization can simplify the logistics somewhat if a user plans accordingly - when Egypt updated their T-55s to Ramses II standards, they put in an engine with ~80% commonality with the M60A3's engine. They also used the same M68 cannon that they had used for updating the M60A3, the road wheels were the same as the M48, and British tracks replaced the Soviet style, so spare parts could be used across multiple vehicles. These would have been post-Twilight War vehicles (the prototype was in the late 1980s but series production wasn't until 2004), but the principle remains the same regardless of era - replace aging assemblies with newer ones you're already using, and the maintenance problems become more manageable.

[Ursus Maior]

Yes, these are very good points. Taiwan put M18 Hellcat turrets onto it surplus M42 Duster hulls, creating its Type 64 light tank. In my opinion, the difference between a Frankentank and a cross-model using upgrade is proper technical documentation and a series of builds larger than a hand full of field conversions plus avoiding obvious design bungles (e. g. cannot be operated safely).

[Raellus]

A lot of good points have been raised so far. Another factor to consider is how much, or how little, certain weapon systems are used in field training. Some armies can afford to do a relatively large amount of training, so their equipment sees a lot of use- this produces wear and tear that, in the short-term, requires routine maintenance, and in the long term requires replacement of parts and other more involved work. A lot of armies in the developing world (and some of the poorer Warsaw Pact nations during the Cold War) can't afford to conduct a lot of realistic field training, so their tanks and whatnot spend all but a couple of days a year in depot, not accumulating wear and tear*. So, it might be the case that at the beginning of the Twilight War, a T-34 that's been sitting in a depot for 360 days a year for decades (assuming it receives a modicum of TLC during that time) might be in better working condition than a 10-year old M1 that's been in and out of the shop half-a-dozen times because it's in the field on maneuvers or on the range (or whatever) at least 180 days a year.

*Disparities in training and their impact on operational readiness and battlefield performance is a topic for another thread.

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[Raellus]

Stumbled across this video today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59IFr_5DJ4

No real surprises, IMHO.

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[Brit]

I have seen Punt Guns in museums in The UK and seemingly in T2K: R/- (in The UK). However 'just' a pipe and...

"In the United Kingdom, a 1995 survey showed fewer than 50 active punt guns still in use. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 limits punt guns in England and Wales, and in Scotland, to a bore diameter of 1.75 inches (44 mm) (1 1/8-pounder). Since Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897 there has been a punt gun salute every Coronation and Jubilee over Cowbit Wash in Cowbit, Lincolnshire, England. During the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, 21 punt gun rounds were fired separately, followed by the guns all being fired simultaneously".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

It is 'remembered' from an old White Dwarf magazine Call of Cuthulu scenario but they said that Boyes anti-tank rifles could be bought / owned on a shotgun licence as they are smooth bore and thus 'OK' under English & Welsh Law. (The mag would date back to the 80's?). Buyer Beware!

[Vespers War]

Originally Posted by Brit

I have seen Punt Guns in museums in The UK and seemingly in T2K: R/- (in The UK). However 'just' a pipe and...

"In the United Kingdom, a 1995 survey showed fewer than 50 active punt guns still in use. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 limits punt guns in England and Wales, and in Scotland, to a bore diameter of 1.75 inches (44 mm) (1 1/8-pounder). Since Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897 there has been a punt gun salute every Coronation and Jubilee over Cowbit Wash in Cowbit, Lincolnshire, England. During the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, 21 punt gun rounds were fired separately, followed by the guns all being fired simultaneously".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

It is 'remembered' from an old White Dwarf magazine Call of Cuthulu scenario but they said that Boyes anti-tank rifles could be bought / owned on a shotgun licence as they are smooth bore and thus 'OK' under English & Welsh Law. (The mag would date back to the 80's?). Buyer Beware!

Over in the Best That Never Was thread, I did up a French punt gun a couple of months ago. Unlike most, it is feasible to shoulder-fire as it's "only" six and a half kilos.

[Brit]

Not really 'out of mothballs' but... maybe similar vessels about?

"The Paraguayan Navy's Humaitá-class river gunboats may well be regarded as ancient by most modern standards, but their longevity pales into insignificance when compared to that Navy's Capitán Cabral (ex-Triunfo, ex-Adolfo Riquelme), which was first launched in 1907!".
http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot....r-gunboat.html
http://wargamingmiscellany.blogspot....-gunboats.html

[.45cultist]

Originally Posted by Brit

I have seen Punt Guns in museums in The UK and seemingly in T2K: R/- (in The UK). However 'just' a pipe and...

"In the United Kingdom, a 1995 survey showed fewer than 50 active punt guns still in use. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 limits punt guns in England and Wales, and in Scotland, to a bore diameter of 1.75 inches (44 mm) (1 1/8-pounder). Since Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee in 1897 there has been a punt gun salute every Coronation and Jubilee over Cowbit Wash in Cowbit, Lincolnshire, England. During the Diamond Jubilee of Elizabeth II, 21 punt gun rounds were fired separately, followed by the guns all being fired simultaneously".

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

It is 'remembered' from an old White Dwarf magazine Call of Cuthulu scenario but they said that Boyes anti-tank rifles could be bought / owned on a shotgun licence as they are smooth bore and thus 'OK' under English & Welsh Law. (The mag would date back to the 80's?). Buyer Beware!

I got to see an 8 gauge punt gun at the SKB shotgun factory in Japan, it was on display in the lobby. 8 gauge shells are still made to clear kilns in metal working. So a nasty surprise can be had for those willing to scavenge.

[ChalkLine]

When introducing an older vehicle into the game I usually try and work outs context first. If it's a one off some group got going then anything goes, but if it's not then there has to be some considerations.

First off, some vehicles need essentially gutting and installing stuff from existing vehicles. This is made easier if the vehicle comes from a class of vehicles that are still in service such as the common-as-mud M113 chassis. Otherwise you're looking at installing new engines, transmissions and suspensions. Really, don't do this for tracked vehicles but you can get away with it for some wheeled vehicles.

If the vehicle is really old you can simply throw the turret (if there is one) away and drop in a new turret. Note this has to be a lighter turret. Most turrets have their dimensions available on the internet and such things as the BMP-1 turret or the Textron 1 metre turret will fit into a lot of things.

Next, weapon commonality. It doesn't need just compatible ammunition, you need enough spares. Really you want a standard NATO/WarPact (depending on who fields it weapon). Either you have to have enough to cannibalise or it has to be dead simple so division can fabricate new parts (such as for rocket tubes). A classic gun for NATO vehicles on the large scale is the L7 105mm gun because there's buckets of them around.
Generally thinks like a coax and pintle mounts will be swapped for the correct weapons unless you're making an all-OPFOR equipment force, something usually only done in emergencies. Likewise radios. Adaptors for things like periscopes can be made given time and inclination.

[Olefin]

Thats one reason a Ferret would be a common older vehicle that could be pressed back into service - the UK made a ton of them, they exported them all over the place and there are a ton of spares - and even ones that were bought by civilians can be put right back into service - just mount a machine gun and you are back in business

[Raellus]

We've probably all seen or included crossbowmen or bowmen in T2k, but is this also true of slingers? I can't remember if it's ever come up here before. I reckon very few PC's, if any, have used slings in combat, but it strikes me as being a weapon one might encounter in the hands of NPCs (civie militia or poorly equipped marauders come to mind).

I've read that in classical warfare, slingers using led shot could kill an armored man at 100 yards with a head shot. They've found skulls with depressed fractures and some with sling shot imbedded or inside the cranium.

One sees slingers at work during uprisings in the Palestinian territories. I don't know how effective they are.

Simple to make and with readily available ammo, I don't see why slings wouldn't make a comeback in the T2kU. The biggest obstacle, IMHO, is training, as a sling is not something one can just point and shoot. Dating back to at least the dawn of civilization, slings would be one of the most anachronistic weapons, probably the most anachronistic projectile weapon, on the 2000 battlefield.

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