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Cascade Skills
There are also some overlap issues regarding weapons skills, in v2, at least. For example, for a M249 (FN Minimi), which is usually belt-fed but can accept STANAG mags, do you use Small Arms Rifle or Autogun? I think most GMs use SAR (I do), but that's not really accurate.
For a LAW-type weapon, do you use Grenade Launcher or Tactical Missile? I think most GMs use GL (I do), but that's not really accurate. Most GLs are arc-fired using ladder sights, whilst LAWs are almost always direct fired. Firing a LAW, firing an M240, and firing a TOW II are all different enough to require separate skills, but as others have already pointed out, if you sub-divide skills even more, the game becomes too complicated/convoluted/cumbersome for most players (let alone GMs). I think the cascade skill system already in place in v2 is a simple and pretty effective solution. But, maybe, instead of receiving only half the main skill (rounded down) for some cascade skills, the player should receive 3/4 the main skill (or at least the half rounded up). For example, if one is trained to operate a TOW II, then he/she should be able to figure out how to fire an M72 LAW reasonably competently. Same with rifles and SAWs, or automatic pistols and revolvers. I think it would also work to implement the cascade skill system to non-combat skills as well.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#2
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I'd argue that the Minimi/M249 should still use Autogun - just because you changed the feed system doesn't change the basic operation or handling of the weapon and machineguns are not made to have the accuracy that rifles do. They're typically designed to be inaccurate so that they "spread the love around". There are exceptions of course (the Bren Gun and the Stoner M63 LMG for example) but generally, changing to a magazine does not make the Minimi perform like a rifle.
LAW rockets... they've always been a problem in the rules system because they don't neatly fit into Grenade Launcher skill or into Tactical Missile skill. For the reasons Rae mentioned, I'd personally argue in favour of having a separate skill for LAW-type weapons. But again, how far do you take it all. While it's easy enough to figure out how to use say the M72 LAW (it conveniently has instructions printed on the weapon), the RPG-7 has enough differences to it to require separate training. But again, while it may be realistic, it becomes a book-keeping/management issue in a game and more importanly I think, does it stop the game from being enjoyable to play? Obviously I'm in favour of having more distinctions between various skills but I am basically playing Devil's Advocate here, I'm not saying we should have more complex skill systems but I do think it's worth examining the idea to help configure a more effective system than the system in the game at present. |
#3
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Re the Autogun issue, I've come to believe that if it's tripod or vehicle mounted, it's Autogun. Bipod or less support and it's Rifle, regardless of calibre, rate of fire, etc. So the M249/Minimi can be either skill, depending on how it's currently employed.
Some weapons such as a GPMG will always be Autogun, regardless of how it's currently employed, and an assault rifle will always be Rifle skill even if strapped to a bench. Common sense always applies. In T2K at least (less so in Merc) most characters have been at war for a number of years and have certainly had opportunity to be exposed to enemy equipment. An Infantryman formally trained in the M72 has probably picked up and used an RPG-7 at some point in the past. A tanker or artilleryman on the other hand is less likely to have had that same hands on exposure, but MAY have had the chance to familiarise themselves with some of the oppositions AFVs (tankers aren't likely to know much about even their own APCs, let alone the enemies, at least not more than how to kill them).
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#4
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[QUOTE=Legbreaker;81706]In T2K at least (less so in Merc) most characters have been at war for a number of years and have certainly had opportunity to be exposed to enemy equipment. An Infantryman formally trained in the M72 has probably picked up and used an RPG-7 at some point in the past.[QUOTE] Agreed. Where the principles of operation are more or less the same, I don't see a need for employing a different skill. Quote:
More recently, in Afghanistan, it didn't take long for CIA contractors raised on Hueys and Blackhawks to figure out how to fly Mi-8s and 17s. Choppers are arguably more complex machines than AFVs, but again, where the the principles of operation are the same (such as flying a rotary wing aircraft), no separate skill is required.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#5
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Watch this and then tell me you can jump out of one vehicle and into another without great difficulty. https://youtu.be/ffq7ZrIzKIc Yes, just driving isn't a major problem, but operating the weapon systems effectively is another matter, ESPECIALLY when everything is labelled in a language you cannot read. There's really not a lot of difference between belt and magazine fed. Provided you understand the theory and principles, and know whether it's an open or closed bolt system, you shouldn't run into too many issues.
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#6
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@Swag: that makes a lot of sense.
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If we're talking current AFVs with stuff like Blue Force Tracker and whatnot, then you're probably right, but the operating principles and hardware of an M1A1 and a T-80, c. 1996, aren't that radically different. I'll concede the point to use as another argument for the application of the Cascade Skill concept. For example, if a PC is an M1A1 gunner, he/she would be able to operate other NATO tank main guns at 3/4 base skill level, and WTO tank guns at 1/2, or something like that. But you've operated both, IRL, correct? If so, you're speaking as someone who already has experience and competence/confidence. For someone who does not, I politely disagree. For a novice, loading a belt-fed weapon for the first time might be a bit tricky. I've seen it done (in movies and videos) and it looks a bit more complicated than slapping home a magazine. I could probably figure it out, but I'd hate to do so under fire.
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Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#7
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and could see how someone who either only had the one weapon, and/or less training could have had a very bad day. |
#8
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https://youtu.be/RBqD7ZRwOtU
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If it moves, shoot it, if not push it, if it still doesn't move, use explosives. Nothing happens in isolation - it's called "the butterfly effect" Mors ante pudorem |
#9
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For example, specialize in LAWs (Unguided Rocket) but get cascade in GL (or Guided Missile). Specialize in GLs, but get cascade in UR.
__________________
Author of Twilight 2000 adventure modules, Rook's Gambit and The Poisoned Chalice, the campaign sourcebook, Korean Peninsula, the gear-book, Baltic Boats, and the co-author of Tara Romaneasca, a campaign sourcebook for Romania, all available for purchase on DriveThruRPG: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...--Rooks-Gambit https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...ula-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...nia-Sourcebook https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product...liate_id=61048 https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/...-waters-module |
#10
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- Rifles and Shotguns. - Pistols & Revolvers. - Belt-Fed Machineguns. With a Qualification of Black Powder for both Rifle and Pistol Skills (because reloading them can be complex). I break my HEAVY WEAPONS Cascade into; - Grenade Launchers (including belt-fed versions & rifle grenades). - Rocket Launchers & Recoilless Rifles (because they are similar in function with the exception that rocket launchers are "under power" during their flight). - AT Missile Launchers (this includes MCLOS, SACLOS, Laser-Guided, and Fire-and-Forget versions). - AA Missile Launchers (this includes MCLOS, SACLOS, IR Homing, and Radar-guided all in one skill). I break my CANNON Cascade (yes this is my Large Caliber Gun) into; - Mortars - Autocannon (includes smaller AA guns from 20mm to 57mm) - Tank Guns & AT Guns (includes larger AA guns up to 120mm and howitzers). I also have a Black Powder Qualification for Cannon. I allow the knowledge of 1 weapon system for each point of raw SKILL LEVEL (the Skill without the Characteristic score added) the character has. |
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